You know I was just about to ask LITS if he argues with everything JAM says just because it is she who says them, I guess its all about perspective hey. She is right about the fee and it would have been a very simple thing to look up the definition of a liberal arts college before the unnecesary dig at West Point theatre majors. But I guess as "one of our most valuable posters" (I imagine the criteria for this title must be as complex as the forbes ranking) LITS is beyond questioning.
West Point rated number one by Forbes as best University in America
- Thread starter Maximus
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Folks- the best way to shut down a thread is to divert it into a conversation about other posters. If you can not make a post about the relative merits of the topic then my advice to you is: DON'T POST.
Either you are intelligent people who can make reasoned arguments hilighting the supporting and contradicting arguments or you really don't belong. So let's keep this thread in the ball park- it clearly has struck a chord among a number of you either in support of or against these rankings.
Some suggestions on moving this thread forward -these aren't all inclusive but you get the idea :
If you don't like the methodology that Forbes, or US News used to arrive at their numbers - Good post.
If you don't understand how they arrived at their rankings- good post.
If you think that they got it pretty much right and are supportive of the whole concept- good post.
If you think that they are trying to quantify essentially unquantifiable data, making any ranking like this unreliable at best- good post.
If you think that they missed some thing or got some of the data wrong- good post.
If you feel the need to belittle someone else on this forum or engage in verbal sniping at each other- Stay off the net.
Nuff said
Either you are intelligent people who can make reasoned arguments hilighting the supporting and contradicting arguments or you really don't belong. So let's keep this thread in the ball park- it clearly has struck a chord among a number of you either in support of or against these rankings.
Some suggestions on moving this thread forward -these aren't all inclusive but you get the idea :
If you don't like the methodology that Forbes, or US News used to arrive at their numbers - Good post.
If you don't understand how they arrived at their rankings- good post.
If you think that they got it pretty much right and are supportive of the whole concept- good post.
If you think that they are trying to quantify essentially unquantifiable data, making any ranking like this unreliable at best- good post.
If you think that they missed some thing or got some of the data wrong- good post.
If you feel the need to belittle someone else on this forum or engage in verbal sniping at each other- Stay off the net.
Nuff said
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"To our way of thinking, a good college is one that meets student needs. While some college rankings are based partly on school reputation as evaluated by college administrators and on the amount of money spent, we focus on things which directly concern incoming students: Will my courses be interesting and rewarding? Will I get a good job after I graduate? Is it likely I will graduate in four years? Will I incur a ton of debt getting my degree?
To answer these questions, the staff at CCAP gathered data from a variety of sources. They based 25% of the rankings on 4 million student evaluations of courses and instructors, as recorded on the Web site RateMyProfessors.com. Another 25% is based on post-graduate success, equally determined by enrollment-adjusted entries in Who's Who in America, and by a new metric, the average salaries of graduates reported by Payscale.com. An additional 20% is based on the estimated average student debt after four years. One-sixth of the rankings are based on four-year college graduation rates--half of that is the actual graduation rate, the other half the gap between the average rate and a predicted rate based on characteristics of the school. The last component is based on the number of students or faculty, adjusted for enrollment, who have won nationally competitive awards like Rhodes Scholarships or Nobel Prizes."
Overview:
http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/02/best-colleges-methodology-opinions-ccap.html
To answer these questions, the staff at CCAP gathered data from a variety of sources. They based 25% of the rankings on 4 million student evaluations of courses and instructors, as recorded on the Web site RateMyProfessors.com. Another 25% is based on post-graduate success, equally determined by enrollment-adjusted entries in Who's Who in America, and by a new metric, the average salaries of graduates reported by Payscale.com. An additional 20% is based on the estimated average student debt after four years. One-sixth of the rankings are based on four-year college graduation rates--half of that is the actual graduation rate, the other half the gap between the average rate and a predicted rate based on characteristics of the school. The last component is based on the number of students or faculty, adjusted for enrollment, who have won nationally competitive awards like Rhodes Scholarships or Nobel Prizes."
Overview:
http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/02/best-colleges-methodology-opinions-ccap.html
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They state that USMA Cadets receive their 895.00 a month stipend (1/3 of a LT's base pay)... do the Cadets at USMA get to keep that entire amount?
I am just curious if it works the same ways as CGA... If they do not get to keep it all, then obviously there is a fee for the education in addition to the 8 yrs of AD and RD time upon graduation.
I am just curious if it works the same ways as CGA... If they do not get to keep it all, then obviously there is a fee for the education in addition to the 8 yrs of AD and RD time upon graduation.
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In the conclusion to their explanation of methodolgy, Forbes puts the right spin on the utility of these rankings.
It is interesting to try and determine what factors differed between the various academies to produce the differing outcomes. I have to assume that average Debt load would not be one of the factors that differs substantially between USMA, USNA, USAFA, USCGA as they all pretty much have the same cost and same benfits (not so with USMMA but I would assume that given the relatively miniscule overall cost of USMMA it still would rank very highly in this category ). It would be interesting to see the data in the other categories.
"Conclusions
Colleges often do not like being assessed. They often prefer secrecy to transparency. Yet they are selling a product that, to the typical consumer, is the second largest expenditure made in a lifetime, after the purchase of a home. Just as Consumer Report and J.D. Powers and Associates help people wanting to buy cars, so ranking organizations like U.S. News & World Report, the Princeton Review and Forbes provide consumers with assistance in choosing a college.
The best school for an individual student is not necessarily the highest ranked school. West Point is a marvelous school--but not every student wants a military career. Williams College is a fine institution, but not everyone has the academic skills or motivation to go there. Indeed, our "do-it-yourself" rankings, of which we are very proud, are a first step in personalizing the rankings to meet the tastes of individual consumers.
Low-ranked schools like the Rochester Institute of Technology may have areas of strength within the institution that make some parts of the school high quality. Remember, too, that we are excluding the vast majority of American universities, many of which objectively would be lower ranked that the 600 schools included in our survey. The rankings are one tool--but by no means the only one--that students should use in selecting an institution. More information is better than less, and the folks at Forbes and CCAP hope these rankings provide some useful guidance to those making one of the most important investment decisions of their lives"
It is interesting to try and determine what factors differed between the various academies to produce the differing outcomes. I have to assume that average Debt load would not be one of the factors that differs substantially between USMA, USNA, USAFA, USCGA as they all pretty much have the same cost and same benfits (not so with USMMA but I would assume that given the relatively miniscule overall cost of USMMA it still would rank very highly in this category ). It would be interesting to see the data in the other categories.
"Conclusions
Colleges often do not like being assessed. They often prefer secrecy to transparency. Yet they are selling a product that, to the typical consumer, is the second largest expenditure made in a lifetime, after the purchase of a home. Just as Consumer Report and J.D. Powers and Associates help people wanting to buy cars, so ranking organizations like U.S. News & World Report, the Princeton Review and Forbes provide consumers with assistance in choosing a college.
The best school for an individual student is not necessarily the highest ranked school. West Point is a marvelous school--but not every student wants a military career. Williams College is a fine institution, but not everyone has the academic skills or motivation to go there. Indeed, our "do-it-yourself" rankings, of which we are very proud, are a first step in personalizing the rankings to meet the tastes of individual consumers.
Low-ranked schools like the Rochester Institute of Technology may have areas of strength within the institution that make some parts of the school high quality. Remember, too, that we are excluding the vast majority of American universities, many of which objectively would be lower ranked that the 600 schools included in our survey. The rankings are one tool--but by no means the only one--that students should use in selecting an institution. More information is better than less, and the folks at Forbes and CCAP hope these rankings provide some useful guidance to those making one of the most important investment decisions of their lives"
Luigi59
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They do not. Many deductions are made from that base pay amount.
They do not keep it all at USCGA - deductions are made for many of the same things - uniforms, tailoring, barber, etc. It is not a fee for the education - tuition, room, and board are all 100% free at all of the academies.
The average 4/c at USCGA gets to keep between $100-$150, I believe the amount is very similar at all 4 of the military academies.
There are deductions. Some of it goes into their cadet account which is used for books, haircuts, uniform items, etc. There is another deduction which is put aside for their class ring and uniforms when they are commissioned. The monthly spending money they get varies by year.
Plebes = $175
Yearlings = $250
Cows = $400
Firsties = $500-$600 (not sure since my son is only a cow)
Putting aside the service commitment, I agree that the academies are not totally free but where else can you go to college and get a top-notch education, room/board, medical, and dental for less than $800 per month and no money up front if you can't afford the initial deposit of $2,000 (for USMA)?
--And taxes, of course, as Zaphod pointed out.
Looks like the Plebes got a raise this year then (or less deductions)
It is probably less deductions. How much do they get?
Christcorp
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"I AM JUST VENTING". So any question that appears to be asked, is rhetorical. Answers are not required. Only if you want.
Cadets; at ANY academy; are not working. The money they are "GIVEN"; in MY OPINION; is not earned money. I.e. They didn't do any work for it. They are given shelter, food, clothing, and all the other essentials for 4 years. All the supposed loans for uniforms, computers, supplies, etc.... is being paid back by the money that was GIVEN to the cadet. (I'm not going to entertain the tax side of this at this time). So, the cadets are paying back a loan with money that is GIVEN to them for doing nothing. There is no other school in the country like that. Damn nice deal. But the reality is; the academy is FREE to the cadets.
Now; the reason for the monthly "STIPEND" outside of the "Legal" reasons, which I won't go into; is because of 2 reasons. 1) Technically, the cadets are in the military. As such, pay would be expected. However; their job is simply being a student. But this is the government, and they aren't the best with money. But that leads to the other reason which ties with the first. 2) Because the cadets are technically in the military; they are not free to get part time jobs at night; jobs on the weekends; during the summer or holidays; etc... So the stipend is used for that reason.
Technically speaking, the academies is identical to a private college/university that offered a student a 100% scholarship that included room, board, tuition, books, and any other item to survive and make it to class. The student is responsible for buying their clothes, computer, accessories, transportation, etc.... Same with the academy, except in place of a job, the academy gives the students a stipend. I did EXACTLY the same thing for my children during High School. Both kids wanted to work part time. I wouldn't allow it during the school year. I told them that they BOTH already had a job. To do the best they could in school; get the highest grades; and get accepted to as many colleges as they could with scholarship offers. That was their job. But I knew that in return, I would need to spend money on the things the kids wanted or needed. Which was fine, because I made this decision when they were 2-3 years old; so I taught them the values of hard work, good stewardship, ethics, integrity, etc.... in other ways.
Point is, the money the cadets make is simply a stipend so they don't have to find a part time job while they are in school (They aren't allowed to); to pay for all the NORMAL things a NORMAL college student would pay for assuming they too had a full ride to a college; and they can concentrate instead on their studies.
Anyway; people can read forbes, princeton review, or any of the other rankings any way they want. The only real difference between the academies and civilian colleges/universities, is a different level of freedom; and the obligation that the cadet has agreed to for after their graduation. And of course the military studies involved during this education to prepare them to fulfill their obligation.
Cadets; at ANY academy; are not working. The money they are "GIVEN"; in MY OPINION; is not earned money. I.e. They didn't do any work for it. They are given shelter, food, clothing, and all the other essentials for 4 years. All the supposed loans for uniforms, computers, supplies, etc.... is being paid back by the money that was GIVEN to the cadet. (I'm not going to entertain the tax side of this at this time). So, the cadets are paying back a loan with money that is GIVEN to them for doing nothing. There is no other school in the country like that. Damn nice deal. But the reality is; the academy is FREE to the cadets.
Now; the reason for the monthly "STIPEND" outside of the "Legal" reasons, which I won't go into; is because of 2 reasons. 1) Technically, the cadets are in the military. As such, pay would be expected. However; their job is simply being a student. But this is the government, and they aren't the best with money. But that leads to the other reason which ties with the first. 2) Because the cadets are technically in the military; they are not free to get part time jobs at night; jobs on the weekends; during the summer or holidays; etc... So the stipend is used for that reason.
Technically speaking, the academies is identical to a private college/university that offered a student a 100% scholarship that included room, board, tuition, books, and any other item to survive and make it to class. The student is responsible for buying their clothes, computer, accessories, transportation, etc.... Same with the academy, except in place of a job, the academy gives the students a stipend. I did EXACTLY the same thing for my children during High School. Both kids wanted to work part time. I wouldn't allow it during the school year. I told them that they BOTH already had a job. To do the best they could in school; get the highest grades; and get accepted to as many colleges as they could with scholarship offers. That was their job. But I knew that in return, I would need to spend money on the things the kids wanted or needed. Which was fine, because I made this decision when they were 2-3 years old; so I taught them the values of hard work, good stewardship, ethics, integrity, etc.... in other ways.
Point is, the money the cadets make is simply a stipend so they don't have to find a part time job while they are in school (They aren't allowed to); to pay for all the NORMAL things a NORMAL college student would pay for assuming they too had a full ride to a college; and they can concentrate instead on their studies.
Anyway; people can read forbes, princeton review, or any of the other rankings any way they want. The only real difference between the academies and civilian colleges/universities, is a different level of freedom; and the obligation that the cadet has agreed to for after their graduation. And of course the military studies involved during this education to prepare them to fulfill their obligation.
Whoa! Wait a minute!
The pay cadets/midshipmen make is spending money for a spartan living style outside the academy on the rare instance they have free time! The commitment (8 years) is worth at least $75,000 a year; which is at least the amount a Harvard shark will make out of school in NYC her first year out of school, twice the amount the education supposedly cost the taxpayers.
That is the bottom line.
The pay cadets/midshipmen make is spending money for a spartan living style outside the academy on the rare instance they have free time! The commitment (8 years) is worth at least $75,000 a year; which is at least the amount a Harvard shark will make out of school in NYC her first year out of school, twice the amount the education supposedly cost the taxpayers.
That is the bottom line.
Christcorp
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If you say so. I wouldn't call $10,000 a year a "spartan" living style. As for the commitment (5 years); let's not get into the whole inactive reserve thing please. That is a reasonable obligation for the education, room and board.
If you curb your emotions a second, you'll realize there are quite a lot of differences in your harvard scenario. The main difference being the cadet doesn't have a student loan to pay back. Whether a student attends Harvard or the Academies; that is strictly a choice. You don't assign dollar value to that, and you don't complain that a harvard grad is a "Shark" just because you didn't "CHOOSE" to go there. And for what it's worth, I know plenty MORE Harvard, Yale, and Princeton students working 2-3 jobs to make a living, than those with a starting paycheck of $75,000.
I was simply pointing out that because cadets, and military members in general, don't have time or the availability to have summer jobs, after school jobs, holiday jobs, etc..., the academy needs to give them a stipend. And that stipend is used for the same EXACT things that MOST college students use the money they made from their part time jobs. Things like books, clothing, computers, toiletries, time off spending money, etc... The point is, the money isn't given for work accomplished. It's given because part time jobs aren't authorized and therefor not available.
Now; the average college graduate will make about $46,000. When you take that currently, a new O-1 makes $31,863.60 a year base pay. Then throw on another $2476.00 for BAS. And BAH (Housing money is based on location; so I took a CHEAP location like wyoming and it's roughly $9480.00 for a single O-1. (New jersey area is about $18,192 per year). That's a total of $44,019.69. Of which, $12,156.00 is TAX FREE. And this doesn't include any other incentives.
Now; don't get me wrong. I think all personnel in the military don't get paid enough for putting their lives on the line for the rest of the country. But that is a separate issue. But we are talking right now about college students, Forbes, Princeton Review, etc.... and some of the variables in what makes a college better than another. And a $44,019.69+ starting salary job; Only $31,863.69 being taxable; no student loans to pay back; and then all the other benefits such as medical, dental, vision, etc... Isn't a bad deal. And as a student, you make approximately $10,000 a year stipend. Which is approximately what a typical college student would make with summer, holiday, part time jobs. Just trying to put it into perspective. You might not like how the numbers come out, but that's how they come out. I didn't make them up. You can believe that it's "Purpose" is for something else. That's cool. But that doesn't take away "Trying" to compare Apples with Apples. That's the only way to compare a cadet's education and financials with those of a civilian education.
If you curb your emotions a second, you'll realize there are quite a lot of differences in your harvard scenario. The main difference being the cadet doesn't have a student loan to pay back. Whether a student attends Harvard or the Academies; that is strictly a choice. You don't assign dollar value to that, and you don't complain that a harvard grad is a "Shark" just because you didn't "CHOOSE" to go there. And for what it's worth, I know plenty MORE Harvard, Yale, and Princeton students working 2-3 jobs to make a living, than those with a starting paycheck of $75,000.
I was simply pointing out that because cadets, and military members in general, don't have time or the availability to have summer jobs, after school jobs, holiday jobs, etc..., the academy needs to give them a stipend. And that stipend is used for the same EXACT things that MOST college students use the money they made from their part time jobs. Things like books, clothing, computers, toiletries, time off spending money, etc... The point is, the money isn't given for work accomplished. It's given because part time jobs aren't authorized and therefor not available.
Now; the average college graduate will make about $46,000. When you take that currently, a new O-1 makes $31,863.60 a year base pay. Then throw on another $2476.00 for BAS. And BAH (Housing money is based on location; so I took a CHEAP location like wyoming and it's roughly $9480.00 for a single O-1. (New jersey area is about $18,192 per year). That's a total of $44,019.69. Of which, $12,156.00 is TAX FREE. And this doesn't include any other incentives.
Now; don't get me wrong. I think all personnel in the military don't get paid enough for putting their lives on the line for the rest of the country. But that is a separate issue. But we are talking right now about college students, Forbes, Princeton Review, etc.... and some of the variables in what makes a college better than another. And a $44,019.69+ starting salary job; Only $31,863.69 being taxable; no student loans to pay back; and then all the other benefits such as medical, dental, vision, etc... Isn't a bad deal. And as a student, you make approximately $10,000 a year stipend. Which is approximately what a typical college student would make with summer, holiday, part time jobs. Just trying to put it into perspective. You might not like how the numbers come out, but that's how they come out. I didn't make them up. You can believe that it's "Purpose" is for something else. That's cool. But that doesn't take away "Trying" to compare Apples with Apples. That's the only way to compare a cadet's education and financials with those of a civilian education.
I'm on line with your numbers but disagree with your commitment terms and pay.
As to being paid for the years while in school, should all military members have their pay reduced to subsistence only while at a particular school? Of course not as I'm sure you'll agree.
Christcorp
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First off; the cadets AREN'T being paid. They are "Given" a stipend. PAID; implies services (Work) rendered in exchange. When a military person is on "Active" duty; meaning doing their job, not to be confused with active, reserve, or guard; part of their JOB is training. That is part of their job description. An academy cadet, while technically in the military, are academic students. There is a difference between an academic student and training related to one's job. So there is absolutely no comparison between a cadet receiving $10,000 as a stipend for additional requirements of a "student" and trying to reduce the pay of an "Active" military person who is attending training to perform their job.
Again; lets not misunderstand the purpose of my post. It was simply to show that from a financial standing, the academies and most civilian bound students, are almost identical in their financials and their spending requirements. The only difference is one is ALLOWED to work part time throughout the year to earn the required money; while the other one is NOT ALLOWED to work part time to earn the required money. And therefor is given a stipend for ancillary expenses. FWIW; my son, besides receiving an appointment to the academy, also received 3 other full ride scholarships to private colleges. One of those was a 100% tuition, room, board, etc... Similar to the academy. The scholarship also offered him $300 a month as a stipend so he WOULDN'T have to get a part time job to handle expenses like personal items; the occasional night out; books, computers; plane ticket home; etc... Again; just like the academies.
Again; just pointing out that financially, the academies and the civilian schools are a lot more in common than many think. later... mike...
Again; lets not misunderstand the purpose of my post. It was simply to show that from a financial standing, the academies and most civilian bound students, are almost identical in their financials and their spending requirements. The only difference is one is ALLOWED to work part time throughout the year to earn the required money; while the other one is NOT ALLOWED to work part time to earn the required money. And therefor is given a stipend for ancillary expenses. FWIW; my son, besides receiving an appointment to the academy, also received 3 other full ride scholarships to private colleges. One of those was a 100% tuition, room, board, etc... Similar to the academy. The scholarship also offered him $300 a month as a stipend so he WOULDN'T have to get a part time job to handle expenses like personal items; the occasional night out; books, computers; plane ticket home; etc... Again; just like the academies.
Again; just pointing out that financially, the academies and the civilian schools are a lot more in common than many think. later... mike...
Christcorp, not sure what you are attempting to say here. Midshipmen/cadets do receive a salary. They have earnings. They receive a Leave and Earnings Statement just like everyone else in the military from the newest E-1 to the most senior General. Also, the same as the O-3 working full time on his graduate degree. It is taxable income. I have never heard it referred to as a stipend. ROTC students receive a stipend. It is nontaxable as are civilian college stipends.
Way back when, SA cadets/midshipmen received an allowance. Everything, from computers to books to tailor shop and cobbler was furnished. Now, it all comes out of their salaries. Keeps the overall budget of the SA lower since salaries come out of a different pot of money.
Way back when, SA cadets/midshipmen received an allowance. Everything, from computers to books to tailor shop and cobbler was furnished. Now, it all comes out of their salaries. Keeps the overall budget of the SA lower since salaries come out of a different pot of money.
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Well...not sure about this regarding cadets/mid's. The stipend part for ROTC, yes.
When I was a cadet (1979-1983) we didn't have computers but EVERYTHING that was "given" to us by USAFA came out of our money. There was nothing that was "free." "T" shop, shoe shop, etc., all were paid by us. That's why for the first year, a 4 dig got to keep $40/month from our pay of something like $352.00. The 3 dig year was $180, 2 dig was $240, and firstie pay was ALL of your check minus whatever was taken out for expenses, taxes, etc.
Oh and books, etc., were also out of our pay. The only "decent thing then" was on book "sell back" day when companies came to USAFA and you went to each one getting the best price you could for your used text books.
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
Christcorp
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Steve; I was simply comparing military academies and civilian college students receiving scholarships. We can call cadet's monthly MONEY; PAY if we want. And legally it is; but the reality is, that it is closer to a stipend than pay. The cadets aren't actually working/performing duties in return for this money. But it's more like a stipend because the cadets aren't allowed to get summer/vacation jobs to offset their financial requirements for the school year. Yes, there's a lot of legal reasons to call it pay. And it sounds weird when people mention that out of $800+ a month, the cadet ONLY gets to keep say $150-$200. But the truth is, what are these cadets (Students) doing in restitution to honestly call it "PAY". And compared to a civilian student, they are getting a lot more money than they are for their summer jobs and such.
Anyway; not getting into semantics or the legal reasons. Just that on a one to one comparison, cadets and civilian students both have financial obligations each month during the school year. Books, clothing, entertainment, vacation travel expenses, etc... are just some of these expenses. For the civilian student, this money will come either as part of a scholarship or part time/summer/vacation jobs. For a cadet, it comes from the academy/military service/government. You can call it pay or stipend; but the purpose of the money is the same as 90% of civilian school students.
Anyway; not getting into semantics or the legal reasons. Just that on a one to one comparison, cadets and civilian students both have financial obligations each month during the school year. Books, clothing, entertainment, vacation travel expenses, etc... are just some of these expenses. For the civilian student, this money will come either as part of a scholarship or part time/summer/vacation jobs. For a cadet, it comes from the academy/military service/government. You can call it pay or stipend; but the purpose of the money is the same as 90% of civilian school students.
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CC, Is this what you are trying to do with your definitions of cadet pay/ROTC stipend and their comparison to civilian expenses:
Is your analysis done in order to refute the Forbes ranking?
-from post #53
Is your analysis done in order to refute the Forbes ranking?
Christcorp
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Actually, it is in response by many that the academies are so unique and can't really be compared to a civilian college. I think from an educational and financial standpoint, they can be compared. Now, whether or not you agree with conclusion that a writer makes; is totally irrelevant and a separate issue all together. Just stating that the military academies and civilian colleges can indeed be compared. Both academically and financially. Yes, maybe the academy requires certain classes instead of a total student decided schedule; and the academies definitely include additional military related classes; (So do ROTC); but other than that, it's not too difficult to see a comparison between the military academies and civilian colleges/universities. So, from that respect, I say the forbes, princeton review, USNWR rankings, etc... can be a valid assessment of ranking schools. Including the academies. I may disagree with the results. I might think that a military academy should have certain other considerations. But I think there are some people who think that there's no comparison between the academies and civilian colleges/universities. When obviously there is; because just about every single cadet that ever attended a military again from the beginning until now, had some comparison of the two in their own mind when deciding which one to attend for an education.