Navy fires TR skipper

There was nothing wrong with the email. There was everything wrong with sending the email to people outside the chain-of-command, especially without letting your chain-of-command work the issue. That’s leadership/followership 101 and doesn’t just apply to military organizations. Frankly, from the public information available I’m shocked at the behavior of the TR CO.
 
UHBlackhawk said:
There was nothing wrong with the email. There was everything wrong with sending the email to people outside the chain-of-command, especially without letting your chain-of-command work the issue. That’s leadership/followership 101 and doesn’t just apply to military organizations. Frankly, from the public information available I’m shocked at the behavior of the TR CO.
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He went wide with it. Bad form indeed.
 
The Navy either did a bad job in awarding him command or a bad job in relieving him. Not sure we will ever know the truth.
 
midmom76 said:
The Navy either did a bad job in awarding him command or a bad job in relieving him. Not sure we will ever know the truth.
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From reviewing his record, he seems to have gone the "typical" path to command for an aviator: nuke school, then XO, then a "deep draft as CO" and then a carrier. His record appears spotless. From what the SecNAV said...it's the leaked letter/email and the belief that he leaked it to the media that caused his relief.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
Like I said, if the Navy picked a CO who went outside the chain of command first, without even trying to abide by it first, they chose poorly no?
 
midmom76 said:
Like I said, if the Navy picked a CO who went outside the chain of command first, without even trying to abide by it first, they chose poorly no?
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It happens. I’ve seen otherwise great officers who performed poorly in command, and mediocre officers who were great commanders.
Heck, this may have been a momentary lapse of judgement on his part.
Whatever, it did get the military involved in politics and that is a very dangerous road to go down.
 
I don't think most of us have the full story. If he started with an email blast to the whole mailing list and leaked it to the press, that's pretty bad. If he was shut down by the higher ups and believed this was the only practical way to get what his crew needed...that's leadership.
I don't know which is the case.
 
raimius said:
I don't think most of us have the full story. If he started with an email blast to the whole mailing list and leaked it to the press, that's pretty bad. If he was shut down by the higher ups and believed this was the only practical way to get what his crew needed...that's leadership.I don't know which is the case.
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Perhaps. But if you read the SecNav memo on his relief it appears that this letter was the first they heard from him about this issue. They were in the process of working with him for a solution when the crap hit the fan and they realized he sent the letter outside the chain-of-command. That’s where they rightfully had an issue.

Statement From SECNAV on Relief of CO Aboard USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN 71)

Statement from the Acting Secretary of the Navy, Thomas B. Modly, regarding the relief of the Commanding Officer of the USS Theodore Roosevelt.
www.navy.mil www.navy.mil
 
I watched the video of him leaving. Very neat to see the support from his sailors. What a different world we live in today, because while it moved my heart, it also made me CRINGE how close everyone was. Yelling and screaming. All that spittle floating around.

Before and after COVID19!
 
i've seen some firsthand info coming from senior officers (squadron COs) on the ship who say that everything that was requested in the memo was already in work, and nothing is happening now that wasn't already underway. if that's the case, i really don't understand what the skipper was thinking when he sent his memo via email to 30 or so people. but it's also possible that those people are not privy to what the CO knew at the time, or what he was being told by CSG down the pway.

then again, i can understand his blasting the memo out (knowing he was committing career suicide) if he felt he had exhausted all other means, and felt like lives were at risk if he didn't do what he did. but if that's not the case, i don't understand

i don't automatically take SECNAV at face value, when he says this was the first they've heard of these issues, and "everything was fine"

there has to be more to the story, we shall see

one thing is clear, it's bad optics all around. bad for the CO to blast the message like he did, and bad for whoever leaked it to the media. also very bad optics, and bad for TR morale, for big Navy to fire the skipper the way they did. all the public and congress sees is "the captain was trying like hell to protect his crew and save lives and they fired him for it". there is more to the story but that's not in the headline.
 
justdoit19 said:
I watched the video of him leaving. Very neat to see the support from his sailors. What a different world we live in today, because while it moved my heart, it also made me CRINGE how close everyone was. Yelling and screaming. All that spittle floating around.
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I am very troubled by the widely distributed video of several hundred sailors cheering him off the ship and him waving/saluting. Just about every CO that I've known, especially the good ones thinks of his crew similarly to his children and even though he was relieved, I am stunned that he would not stop and try to get them to move apart FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY. I get that it felt good to be cheered off of the ship, especially in this situation but he should have been thinking about the greater good for HIS CREW and yes, they are still his crew and will always be his crew.
I feel bad for him about being relieved as it appears that he put his eagles on the table to try to get action for his people. He may have been misguided in how he did it but I do think he was putting his people first. Sadly, I know more than a few officers who had to make that sort of Hobson's Choice and while it is sad, it is one of the negative things that can happen when you are in command.
 
raimius said:
If he started with an email blast to the whole mailing list and leaked it to the press, that's pretty bad. If he was shut down by the higher ups and believed this was the only practical way to get what his crew needed...that's leadership.
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@raimius, you get my vote for Post of the Day.

From the civilian bleachers at the Wall Street Journal this AM. It adds issues of national security and geopolitics to the discussion. It also raises the question why Capt. Crozier would torch his own career. The admonition to the top brass in last paragraph seems to be the lingering question.

Many have been quick to lionize Capt. Brett Crozier as a hero who spoke up in defense of his crew. His March 30 four-page letter, which leaked to the press this week, said he urgently needed to offload some 4,000 deployed sailors to quarantine in Guam to arrest the virus. It is bracing reading. “If we do not act now,” Capt. Crozier wrote, “we are failing to take care of our most trusted asset—our Sailors.” It isn’t clear who leaked the letter.

Acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly said Thursday that he’d relieved Capt. Crozier for showing “extremely poor judgment.” Mr. Modly said the captain sent his letter to 20 or 30 people over an unclassified channel and was operating outside normal procedures in the chain of command. These are serious, fireable offenses, and Capt. Crozier could have offered his resignation instead if he felt he’d exhausted his ability to care properly for his sailors.

More substantively, adversaries are now aware that a U.S. aircraft carrier is said to be in rough shape in the South Pacific. China and Russia would be delighted to exploit American weakness amid a pandemic. Capt. Crozier’s letter said the U.S. is not at war but that doesn’t mean it isn’t under threat.

Then again, there are questions. What would motivate a captain with more than 25 years in the Navy to torch his own career? Anyone who reaches such a prestigious position in the Navy tends to be a company man. Mr. Modly says that none of the more than 100 people on the ship who have tested positive have been hospitalized, and that his office had already been working with Capt. Crozier.

But it is tough to square the divergent stories between the Navy Secretary in Washington and the captain leading a warship. Mr. Modly in his Thursday press conference said this firing doesn’t mean local commanders shouldn’t speak up about problems, though many will doubtless conclude otherwise from this episode.

Videos have surfaced on the internet appearing to show the Roosevelt’s sailors cheering Capt. Crozier as he departs the ship. Most of the rank-and-file seem to see Capt. Crozier as defending their interests at great personal cost. Navy brass should take this as an indication of dysfunction in the chain of command, which starts at the top. Why do so many sailors and veterans find it plausible that Capt. Crozier was getting the brush off from his bosses?
 
Interesting read at USNI by a retired Navy Commander about how Teddy Roosevelt did a similar thing (the comments are also interesting):

"Roosevelt delivered the letter to (Major Gen) Shafter, but, presumably not convinced the corps commander would act on it in a timely fashion, also allegedly handed a copy of it to the Associated Press correspondent who was covering the Cuba beat. That correspondent quickly cabled the letter to AP headquarters and it published nationwide the same day.

"The public outcry was overwhelming and unanimous in accusing the McKinley Administration of not caring about the troops. McKinley summoned his Secretary of War, Russell A. Alger, and vented his fury that the letter was leaked and ordered him to do what he could to make the problem go away. Alger ordered the Navy to send transport ships to retrieve Fifth Corps from Cuba and the Army to ready facilities at Camp Wikoff on Long Island to house the stricken soldiers once they arrived back in the United States."
LINK: USS Theodore Roosevelt Commanding Officer Followed the Example of Colonel Roosevelt
 
unkown1961 said:
Interesting read at USNI by a retired Navy Commander about how Teddy Roosevelt did a similar thing (the comments are also interesting):

"Roosevelt delivered the letter to (Major Gen) Shafter, but, presumably not convinced the corps commander would act on it in a timely fashion, also allegedly handed a copy of it to the Associated Press correspondent who was covering the Cuba beat. That correspondent quickly cabled the letter to AP headquarters and it published nationwide the same day.

"The public outcry was overwhelming and unanimous in accusing the McKinley Administration of not caring about the troops. McKinley summoned his Secretary of War, Russell A. Alger, and vented his fury that the letter was leaked and ordered him to do what he could to make the problem go away. Alger ordered the Navy to send transport ships to retrieve Fifth Corps from Cuba and the Army to ready facilities at Camp Wikoff on Long Island to house the stricken soldiers once they arrived back in the United States."
LINK: USS Theodore Roosevelt Commanding Officer Followed the Example of Colonel Roosevelt
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Here's a link to a New York Times editorial written by Roosevelt's great-grandson Tweed Roosevelt.

www.nytimes.com

Opinion | Captain Crozier Is a Hero (Published 2020)

Theodore Roosevelt, my great-grandfather, would agree.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
 
EDelahanty said:
Here's a link to a New York Times editorial written by Roosevelt's great-grandson Tweed Roosevelt.

www.nytimes.com

Opinion | Captain Crozier Is a Hero (Published 2020)

Theodore Roosevelt, my great-grandfather, would agree.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
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And this is exactly why he should have been fired. The Armed Services do NOT belong in politics. There are ways to take care of your sailors, Marines and soldiers without getting the press involved.
 
The USNI article and subsequent comments does highlight the issues. Since none of us (or for that matter the people commenting on the USNI article) really know the complete story it is pretty hard to know if in fact the Captain was grandstanding or if he had exhausted the channels available to him.

It is an unfortunate side affect of the current political climate that trust in the integrity of the professional leadership of all branches of the Government including the DoD has been seriously and deliberately eroded. The attributes of leading by example, self sacrifice and personal integrity have certainly been denigrated and ignored for the past several years by the very top of the Government in favor of rewarding uncritical and absolute “loyalty”. The current acting Secretary of the Navy is in the position after all, because his predecessor was removed for pushing back when told to execute something ( Gallagher) that clearly interfered with the internal maintenance of good order, discipline and the best interests of the Navy. And today’s news that the DOI -IG was removed for following the law demonstrates sends yet another message to the troops that the worst failing is not failing your troops or the mission - but contradicting the administration is absolutely a cardinal failing. So now is it any wonder that subordinate Commanders would question if the senior leadership really would do everything in its power to take care of their personnel if doing so was not in synch with the public utterances of the administration?
And if they don’t believe that - then those subordinate commanders do what they believe they have to get the right outcome for their troops, even if that means jumping on a professional Hand Grenade. Undermining the chain of command and rewarding obsequiousness has dire consequences- whether that undermining comes from the top down or from the bottom up and I suspect this is one of those consequences.

I don’t know what happened here or why an Officer with 25 years experience in his second command, commanding one of the premier ships in the World, would essentially knowingly toss his career. But I would suggest that it is an indicator that the trust in the senior leadership by the troops has faltered. In routine times - who cares? But when things start to get hairy - if you don’t believe the leadership has your back -then you do what you believe is necessary.
 
bruno said:
The USNI article and subsequent comments does highlight the issues. Since none of us (or for that matter the people commenting on the USNI article) really know the complete story it is pretty hard to know if in fact the Captain was grandstanding or if he had exhausted the channels available to him.

It is an unfortunate side affect of the current political climate that trust in the integrity of the professional leadership of all branches of the Government including the DoD has been seriously and deliberately eroded. The attributes of leading by example, self sacrifice and personal integrity have certainly been denigrated and ignored for the past several years by the very top of the Government in favor of rewarding uncritical and absolute “loyalty”. The current acting Secretary of the Navy is in the position after all, because his predecessor was removed for pushing back when told to execute something ( Gallagher) that clearly interfered with the internal maintenance of good order, discipline and the best interests of the Navy. And today’s news that the DOI -IG was removed for following the law demonstrates sends yet another message to the troops that the worst failing is not failing your troops or the mission - but contradicting the administration is absolutely a cardinal failing. So now is it any wonder that subordinate Commanders would question if the senior leadership really would do everything in its power to take care of their personnel if doing so was not in synch with the public utterances of the administration?
And if they don’t believe that - then those subordinate commanders do what they believe they have to get the right outcome for their troops, even if that means jumping on a professional Hand Grenade. Undermining the chain of command and rewarding obsequiousness has dire consequences- whether that undermining comes from the top down or from the bottom up and I suspect this is one of those consequences.

I don’t know what happened here or why an Officer with 25 years experience in his second command, commanding one of the premier ships in the World, would essentially knowingly toss his career. But I would suggest that it is an indicator that the trust in the senior leadership by the troops has faltered. In routine times - who cares? But when things start to get hairy - if you don’t believe the leadership has your back -then you do what you believe is necessary.
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Funny. I haven’t heard of anyone in the Army having issues with the senior leadership. US Army Korea and Italy have weathered COVID-19 fairly well so far. Is there a problem in the Navy?
 
UHBlackhawk said:
Funny. I haven’t heard of anyone in the Army having issues with the senior leadership. US Army Korea and Italy have weathered COVID-19 fairly well so far. Is there a problem in the Navy?
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I read an article yesterday or the day before telling of how the Army general in Italy shut down everything immediately and contained the outbreak. There were many complaints of course when people couldn't get in the gym and other facilities. My son is at 29 Palms where everything is shut down except for the barber shops which will close at the end of the work day tomorrow. He's a gym rat but has various items of workout gear, and a block from his front door is the Joshua Tree National Park which is closed to vehicles. He has a huge desert essentially to himself with a three mile trail up a hill to run with the trip home as a cool down. Not a bad way to endure the apocalypse.
 
Devil Doc said:
I read an article yesterday or the day before telling of how the Army general in Italy shut down everything immediately and contained the outbreak. There were many complaints of course when people couldn't get in the gym and other facilities. My son is at 29 Palms where everything is shut down except for the barber shops which will close at the end of the work day tomorrow. He's a gym rat but has various items of workout gear, and a block from his front door is the Joshua Tree National Park which is closed to vehicles. He has a huge desert essentially to himself with a three mile trail up a hill to run with the trip home as a cool down. Not a bad way to endure the apocalypse.
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Not what I’m talking about and not what the poster I responded to was talking about. “Joes”, “Jarheads” and “swabbies” will always gripe and complain.
No, this is dealing with senior (O-5/6 and above), military leaders complaining about their senior leadership. This seems to be an issue with the Navy that I haven’t observed in the Army or the Marines.
BTW, the Army leadership in Italy is now being praised for their early action, to include shutting down the gym. Sometimes good leadership is doing what is not necessarily popular.
 
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UHBlackhawk said:
Not what I’m talking about and not what the poster I responded to was talking about. “Joes”, “Jarheads” and “swabbies” will always gripe and complain.
No, this is dealing with senior (O-5/6 and above), military leaders complaining about their senior leadership. This seems to be an issue with the Navy that I haven’t observed in the Army or the Marines.
BTW, the Army leadership in Italy is now being praised for their early action, to include shutting down the gym. Sometimes good leadership is doing what is not necessarily popular.
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yep, I shouldn't have tagged your post to quote. My bad.

But, BTW, that's what the article I read was about. The general shut things down and controlled the outbreak. That's why I wrote, "I read an article yesterday or the day before telling of how the Army general in Italy shut down everything immediately and controlled the outbreak."
 
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