Religious Combat Beliefs?

M

Markov

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Apr 3, 2020
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I am a female student highly interested in USMA. I will work to death and die for my country. However, I have serious religious beliefs against women in combat roles. Any support position is fine. I am wondering:

1) If West Point grads rank all combat branches lowest on their choice spectrum, can they be relatively sure to avoid combat during their military career?
2) If the answer to #1 is yes, is that kind of position frowned upon? I.e., even if it's possible to willfully avoid combat positions, is West Point not interested in training cadets who don't want to fight?

I'm ultimately trying to decide if West Point is the right place. Advice is appreciated. Thanks.
 
A few questions to ask yourself:

1) During Beast, will you be able to fire an M16, throw a grenade, load a mortar, shoot an M50? Because those are prerequisites before the academic year even starts, and all cadets are expected to know the basics of ground warfare, which is the very heart of the Army’s mission.

2) Even if you were in a support role, if the circumstances dictated, would you be able to pick up a rifle and fire willingly at the enemy with intent to kill to protect yourself and your fellow soldiers? Because in today’s warfare, there really isn’t a “front line.” The enemy can and will come from any direction, and will not discriminate between “combat troops” and “support troops”?

3) In your support role, would you be able to serve women who are in front-line roles in the same way as you would serve men in the same position, or would you somehow treat them differently? Because any soldier, regardless of gender, deserves to be treated equally no matter the personal bias of the person assigned to “support” them.

I don’t doubt your love of country and desire to serve. And I don’t doubt your willingness to “work” to the death and “die” for your country. Those are rare and admirable traits. But the very essence of a commissioned officer’s role is to “fight” for your country and to lead others in that mission — if and when the situation dictates, no matter your official assignment, and no matter your gender.

Think hard before entering USMA. You may not want to fight. But you must be willing to fight.
 
As you explore career paths, and if your goal is serving your country, don’t overlook:

- Serving in the two uniformed services which are not armed services, USPHS and NOAA

Join | Office of Marine and Aviation Operations

Thank you for your interest in the NOAA Corps! This section provides information about eligibility requirements, pay and benefits, how to apply, pre-commissioning requirements, and information about basic NOAA Corps officer training. The NOAA Corps seeks officer candidates with science or...
www.omao.noaa.gov www.omao.noaa.gov



- Serving as a Federal civilian at one of the “ABC” agencies such as FBI, CIA, DHS, NSA, etc., doing critical work as an analyst (not a commissioned agent) in intelligence, operations planning, logistics, etc. You don’t have to kick down doors, but you have the backs of those who do. Google “agency name student programs.” Example below.

Undergrad Students | FBIJOBS

www.fbijobs.gov www.fbijobs.gov

I respect your beliefs, though I don’t share them. Those in the Armed Services take an oath that asks them to defend the people of this country, who enjoy freedom of speech and freedom of religion. As the poster above pointed out, it’s an asymmetrical battlefront. Even in support roles, people can find themselves in the middle of combat operations, expected to do their part with a willing heart. Keep researching to determine if this is the path for you.
 
Markov said:
I am a female student highly interested in USMA. I will work to death and die for my country. However, I have serious religious beliefs against women in combat roles. Any support position is fine. I am wondering:

1) If West Point grads rank all combat branches lowest on their choice spectrum, can they be relatively sure to avoid combat during their military career?
2) If the answer to #1 is yes, is that kind of position frowned upon? I.e., even if it's possible to willfully avoid combat positions, is West Point not interested in training cadets who don't want to fight?

I'm ultimately trying to decide if West Point is the right place. Advice is appreciated. Thanks.
Click to expand...
1) No, the Class of 2020 was the last class that required women to "opt-in" to Infantry and Armor, although they could be assigned to other combat branches without opting in. Beginning with the Class of 2021, men and women are treated equally with respect to branching.

Your ability to influence what branch you get is based on three factors: your preference, how the branch rates you, and your standing on the Order of Merit list. It also depends on requirements out of your control dictated by the Department of the Army, such as numbers required for each branch and the percent of the class required to branch combat arms.

The branching process is complex and has undergone numerous changes in recent years. At one time, a cadet with superior grades could virtually dictate their branch assignment. That has eroded over time and, although grades play a significant role, a low branch rating can quash a high OML rank.

2) Although the answer to #1 is no, your question is instructive. The current senior leadership of the Army operates on a philosophy of not using USMA grads to do jobs that can be done with far less military training than provided by USMA. Thus, the current dictum is that more than 80% of the class must branch combat arms. This is a significant change from my day, when the attitude of senior leadership was that all branches of the Army benefited from the leadership and military training provided by USMA.

There is a bit of Gung Ho! Hoorah! associated with Infantry and Armor, and some prestige in getting popular branches, but no serious belittling of those assigned to non-combat branches. All cadets go through the same fours years regardless of branch assignment.

The bottom line is that, under current conditions, West Point is probably not the best choice for a man or woman emphatically against serving in a combat arms branch. However, there are many other avenues available to serve other than West Point that do not involve a combat role.
 
@Markov - your religious beliefs are your beliefs. I am not here to challenge them or convince you to take another position. It's actually good that you are seeking advice now before you join the military and take on an obligation that may conflict with your belief structure.

That said, I would encourage you to ensure your position is consistent with your religion. Most of the world's major religions have established theological positions on serving in the military and fighting in wars. There has been a great deal of philosophical, ethical, theological thought around these issues. The "Just War Theory" is an example.

My suggestion is that your ensure your position is well-thought out and consistent with your religion's teachings.

You are entitled to your personal beliefs but it may mean that a military career would not be the best place for you. You can't go in expecting the military to make exceptions - they rarely do.
 
I am just throwing this out there but have no means or intentions whatsoever to sway your choices. I suggest taking a high look at USNA/USAFA if you haven't already. They are both more technical related as compared to Army, and the careers you can take after will most likely guarantee that you will not see combat.
 
Markov said:
I am a female student highly interested in USMA. I will work to death and die for my country. However, I have serious religious beliefs against women in combat roles. Any support position is fine. I am wondering:

1) If West Point grads rank all combat branches lowest on their choice spectrum, can they be relatively sure to avoid combat during their military career?
2) If the answer to #1 is yes, is that kind of position frowned upon? I.e., even if it's possible to willfully avoid combat positions, is West Point not interested in training cadets who don't want to fight?

I'm ultimately trying to decide if West Point is the right place. Advice is appreciated. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you would be far better in USCGA as the Coast Guard has a humanitarian rather than combat mission.
 
Hopeful2025 said:
I am just throwing this out there but have no means or intentions whatsoever to sway your choices. I suggest taking a high look at USNA/USAFA if you haven't already. They are both more technical related as compared to Army, and the careers you can take after will most likely guarantee that you will not see combat.
Click to expand...
Not sure how accurate that is. Maybe some USNA/USAFA folks can clarify. For USNA, might want to look at the number required to go into the Marine Corps, Surface Warfare, etc.
 
jl123 said:
Not sure how accurate that is. Maybe some USNA/USAFA folks can clarify. For USNA, might want to look at the number required to go into the Marine Corps, Surface Warfare, etc.
Click to expand...
As far as I know, there is no number techinically "required" for Marine ground, especially if mids dont put it as one of their choices, let alone attend leatherneck. The most likely they would get put into is SWO or getting sub drafted which is still unlikely. But either way, correct me if I am wrong, being put on a ship or sub, would not require one to see much combat at the moment as our wars are mainly fought on land as of right now. Again, .while things may change in the future, USMA is very combat heavy as compared to USNA/USAFA.
 
Depends on how you define “combat.” I’d argue that firing a cruise missile from a destroyer, launching a nuclear warhead from a sub and attacking from a fighter plane are forms of combat. Comes down to the specificity of OP’s views and how granular “combat” is in her mind.
 
MidCakePa said:
Depends on how you define “combat.” I’d argue that firing a cruise missile from a destroyer, launching a nuclear warhead from a sub and attacking from a fighter plane are forms of combat. Comes down to the specificity of OP’s views and how granular “combat” is in her mind.
Click to expand...
You bring up a good point. I defined combat as things like infantry, firing mortars, etc on land and seeing direct action as "combat" which is why I suggested looking into the other two academies. However, you are completely right, and the idea of combat may vary from person to person.
 
Someone from USNA can clarify, but I believe the Department of the Navy issues specific assignment requirements for each USNA class, similar to the way the Army issues branch requirements for USMA - according to the attached slide, the majority of those combat related for USNA with 25% required for the Marine Corps for the Class of 2020.

It appears that the chance of a combat assignment from USNA and USMA are about the same. Granted, the chance of close quarters combat (Infantry, Armor, SEAL, Marines) is greater in the Army, but I don't find a moral difference between killing someone with a bayonet and killing them with a missile.


USNA 2020 Service Selection.JPG
 
If anyone is interested in Gender roles in War in the Judeo-Christian and Muslim traditions, a good place to start would be with Deborah and Jael.
 
Capt MJ said:
As you explore career paths, and if your goal is serving your country, don’t overlook:

- Serving in the two uniformed services which are not armed services, USPHS and NOAA

Join | Office of Marine and Aviation Operations

Thank you for your interest in the NOAA Corps! This section provides information about eligibility requirements, pay and benefits, how to apply, pre-commissioning requirements, and information about basic NOAA Corps officer training. The NOAA Corps seeks officer candidates with science or...
www.omao.noaa.gov www.omao.noaa.gov



- Serving as a Federal civilian at one of the “ABC” agencies such as FBI, CIA, DHS, NSA, etc., doing critical work as an analyst (not a commissioned agent) in intelligence, operations planning, logistics, etc. You don’t have to kick down doors, but you have the backs of those who do. Google “agency name student programs.” Example below.

Undergrad Students | FBIJOBS

www.fbijobs.gov www.fbijobs.gov

I respect your beliefs, though I don’t share them. Those in the Armed Services take an oath that asks them to defend the people of this country, who enjoy freedom of speech and freedom of religion. As the poster above pointed out, it’s an asymmetrical battlefront. Even in support roles, people can find themselves in the middle of combat operations, expected to do their part with a willing heart. Keep researching to determine if this is the path for you.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the suggestions. This is helpful, and I will definitely look into them.
 
jl123 said:
1) No, the Class of 2020 was the last class that required women to "opt-in" to Infantry and Armor, although they could be assigned to other combat branches without opting in. Beginning with the Class of 2021, men and women are treated equally with respect to branching.

Your ability to influence what branch you get is based on three factors: your preference, how the branch rates you, and your standing on the Order of Merit list. It also depends on requirements out of your control dictated by the Department of the Army, such as numbers required for each branch and the percent of the class required to branch combat arms.

The branching process is complex and has undergone numerous changes in recent years. At one time, a cadet with superior grades could virtually dictate their branch assignment. That has eroded over time and, although grades play a significant role, a low branch rating can quash a high OML rank.

2) Although the answer to #1 is no, your question is instructive. The current senior leadership of the Army operates on a philosophy of not using USMA grads to do jobs that can be done with far less military training than provided by USMA. Thus, the current dictum is that more than 80% of the class must branch combat arms. This is a significant change from my day, when the attitude of senior leadership was that all branches of the Army benefited from the leadership and military training provided by USMA.

There is a bit of Gung Ho! Hoorah! associated with Infantry and Armor, and some prestige in getting popular branches, but no serious belittling of those assigned to non-combat branches. All cadets go through the same fours years regardless of branch assignment.

The bottom line is that, under current conditions, West Point is probably not the best choice for a man or woman emphatically against serving in a combat arms branch. However, there are many other avenues available to serve other than West Point that do not involve a combat role.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the information.
 
USMCGrunt said:
@Markov - your religious beliefs are your beliefs. I am not here to challenge them or convince you to take another position. It's actually good that you are seeking advice now before you join the military and take on an obligation that may conflict with your belief structure.

That said, I would encourage you to ensure your position is consistent with your religion. Most of the world's major religions have established theological positions on serving in the military and fighting in wars. There has been a great deal of philosophical, ethical, theological thought around these issues. The "Just War Theory" is an example.

My suggestion is that your ensure your position is well-thought out and consistent with your religion's teachings.

You are entitled to your personal beliefs but it may mean that a military career would not be the best place for you. You can't go in expecting the military to make exceptions - they rarely do.
Click to expand...
Thank you @USMCGrunt .
 
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