VMI, Citadel, Norwich

vmi1991fromva

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I'm a VMI grad and Virginia resident who has a son that wanted to go to VMI since middle school. It looked good until all this "mess" occurred. Knowing that the Left never stops until they reach utter destruction (e.g. Janet Howell, Democrat suggested shutting VMI down), I have encouraged my son to look at the Citadel and also Norwich (without over reacting). I know the Citadel has had it's dust ups but South Carolina appears to be a better state politically when it comes to such matters. I do believe VMI will adapt and overcome but in the immediate future, it doesn't look good, especially with COVID. We head to VMI for Open House this weekend. It should be interesting. Any thought on the Citadel's current environment would be appreciated. I assume they are observing what is happening to VMI and taking appropriate precautions. With Norwich, my main reservation is the climate/distance and it has a large civilian population. From what I gather, the Citadel bonds with the company a little more than just with the class. And they have many more/better barracks - so no four and five man rooms or overcrowding like VMI? With Norwich, I always liked those guys back in the day and had an awesome TAC/ROTC officer but don't know much about it. Thank you!
 
vmi1991from - don't give up on VMI, it is a great school and being a Virginia resident - a great bargain in higher education. You will not find a similar small values based college education at the price VMI offers Virginia residents.

Having said this, The Citadel also offers a small, values based education with outstanding programs in engineering, business and intelligence & cyber security - a bargain for SC residents who end up on average paying about half the published cost of attendance after SC Lottery scholarships and financial aid are figured into your aid package. But like VMI - for out-of-state cadets, the tuition is high - unless you qualify for ROTC or academic scholarships. About 2/3 of out-of-state cadets attend on ROTC scholarships. Cadets at The Citadel receive more AROTC scholarships than any other college in the nation - about $13 million annually - which helps non-residents.

Like VMI and many other schools in the Old South - The Citadel is confronting its history and heritage. Hopefully, as its President, General Walters, USMC, retired, explains in the message below, we can do this with dignity, respect and thoughtful retrospection:
 
Welcome to the SA Forums! Tried to send you a PM...
Being a VMI grad, you have a better sense than most about the schools and their similarities/differences. Both Citadel and Norwich have civilian populations and undergrad/grad online degree programs which may appeal to your son in a Covid Age. Agree with you on distance and weather at Norwich, but they have a higher percentage of commissioning cadets, which might be in your son’s interest and might speak to cultural differences between the two schools.
If your son is considering Norwich or Citadel, I would definitely look at Texas A&M. Their corps is very service-minded and like VMI, most cadets commission into the military. Plus, those Aggies love their boots, “bands of gold” and their school!
All 3 are great choices and with you being a VMI grad, I’m sure your son will do well wherever he chooses to go!
 
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How about VPI? The Va Tech Corps of Cadets is good to go. I agree with "don't give up on VMI" but things are all whack in Virginia at the present.

If a commission in one of the military services is the goal, then my recommendation is to get in where one can get in.

I teach high school career and technical education medical sciences courses and most of my students over the past 14 years say they want to be a physician. Most of them do not get there but my advice is always, "the best medical school is the one you get into."

As has been mentioned so many times here and rest assured, and my son will tell you, "nobody cares from where you graduate."

I get it. That's what I wanted for my son. I wanted him to be a big time Academy grad with the ring and resume.

You'll hear the stories of the hook ups for the one and done and five and dive grads who made it big in the government and/or contractor world. Lots of those are true. Lots of those jobs are a matter of timing and luck. Young folks should follow their dreams and imaginations and do what not only interests them, but what they fall into and then build upon that landing.
 
I second the Texas A&M recommendation. While the Corps of Cadets is numerically only a small part of a huge university, it's easy to tell that they really do carry the torch, in a manner of speaking, for the whole university. My son is a freshman in the Corps, and 3 of the 14 freshmen in his company are from No Va (two from Fairfax County and one from Loudoun County). All ROTC scholarship winners here receive in-state tuition, and it's even possible to get in-state tuition without an ROTC scholarship via what are called "Corps Scholarships."

A&M also appears to me to be impervious to political meddling in this state, in contrast to a degree with the other Texas flagship.
 
As a current First, I would offer the following:

Do not give up on the Institute. It disheartens me to hear the scores of alumni that have made Jackson the hill that they die on. As a dyke, I taught my rats that one thing matters: they must uphold the Mission. "Mother I" may look different; that is acceptable as long as the mission is being continued. Jacksons statue doesnt bind the Corps. The Code of the Cadet and the Honor Code binds the Corps.

I don't think the legislators will close VMI- it would be a massive blow to Rockbridge economically. Constitutencies would suffer. And when they ask who is responsible, there will be a paper trail of legilator records to show just who is.

"Therefore, it is the mission of Virginia Military Institute to produce educated, honorable men and women, prepared for the varied work of civil life, imbued with love of learning, confident in the functions and attitudes of leadership, possessing a high sense of public service, advocates of the American Democracy and free enterprise system, and ready as citizen-soldiers to defend their country in time of national peril."

As a final parting shot- General Hunter burned VMI to the ground in the summer of 1865, and yet here we are. Though we may not all agree on all aspects of the Institute, we can all agree that VMI is a necessity, now more than ever.

If you're on Post, feel free to drop me a line. I'd love to come out and chat.
 
According to some photos on another site, the Rats were out early this morning for a long run / forced march with their rifles at port arms -- so life goes on at The Institute. My Cadet reports that life goes on, and that he and his Brother Rats are united. A quote from renowned VMI graduate General George C. Marshall is making the rounds, "When conditions are difficult, the command is depressed and everyone seems critical and pessimistic, you must be especially cheerful and optimistic."
 
Sharing a text that I sent to my closest Brother Rats yesterday.
“ Touching base from Bruno- (long text😱)
Well this is what the Chinese curse meant by "may you live in interesting times". Certainly not the greatest of times at VMI and I think Gen Peay got treated really badly given how much he has done for the school.
But hopefully most BRs eventually can put things in perspective. VMI was about way the heck more than statues to me. Personal Integrity, Honor, Duty, Responsibility, Caring for all of your Brother Rats - and doing all that when things turn to sxxx is what I got from it and is what I believe we were supposed to take away. So let's not let the temporary turmoil in Lexington undermine our relationships with and experiences with each other - and with VMI. The school was blown up once. It was turned over to the Army in WW2. It stayed alive during Vietnam- it will weather this storm and come out still relevant and still recognizably the same place- with some needed corrections to smooth out things on the edges. So I hope this finds you all well and -keep the faith Brother Rats!!”
 
As a current First, I would offer the following:
Do not give up on the Institute.
As a final parting shot- General Hunter burned VMI to the ground in the summer of 1865, and yet here we are. Though we may not all agree on all aspects of the Institute, we can all agree that VMI is a necessity, now more than ever.
If you're on Post, feel free to drop me a line. I'd love to come out and chat.
Thank you for posting and providing this insight as a current cadet. As other posts indicate, VMI was burned to the ground during the Civil War and turned over to the Army in WWII... ...the Institute will endure.
I suspect VMI will come out of this stronger in the long run and "The Institute Will Be Heard From" well into the future!
 
To be clear, I haven't given up on VMI because of Stonewall. And I don't think "scores" of alumni have either. We are in the middle of a culture war and the left has targeted academia for a while. VMI is currently in the cross hairs. I think it's naive to think the Left will stop at the statue or other rationale responses and adjustments. That being said, the limited Open House was fine and everything was addressed professionally. My original post was asking for insight into differences at the Citadel and Norwich, not a dig at VMI. And please understand, I will never "give up" on VMI as an alumnus. I do feel justified, however, as a father to do my due diligence for my son given the current controversy and climate at VMI. We plan on visiting the Citadel soon and Norwich next Spring (if still undecided).
 
I second the Texas A&M recommendation. While the Corps of Cadets is numerically only a small part of a huge university, it's easy to tell that they really do carry the torch, in a manner of speaking, for the whole university. My son is a freshman in the Corps, and 3 of the 14 freshmen in his company are from No Va (two from Fairfax County and one from Loudoun County). All ROTC scholarship winners here receive in-state tuition, and it's even possible to get in-state tuition without an ROTC scholarship via what are called "Corps Scholarships."

A&M also appears to me to be impervious to political meddling in this state, in contrast to a degree with the other Texas flagship.
Do you know if they are from FCPS or one of the private schools?
 
To follow-up on this, my son got into all three schools and toured the Citadel (COVID limited). In comparison to VMI, the major differences were that the Citadel is bigger, barracks are nicer (mostly two man rooms), and of course, Charleston (warm climate). Leave at the Citadel is more liberal for Knobs and upperclassmen. The Citadel also has military duty (PT) for two mornings while VMI mil duty is always around 3 or 4pm. Additionally, The Citadel appears to encourage company camaraderie more so than VMI. VMI facilities except barracks appear nicer than the Citadel's overall. Academically, it's close but VMI is a little harder to get into. At both schools, academics are solid and the educational experience goes way beyond the books, making it a wash. Ultimately, it came down to in-state verses out-of-state tuition, and proximity to home. Further, we have been very impressed with Sup Wins. Given that he is Class of 85 and my brother is Class of 86, I have a certain comfort level that things will be handled correctly and professionally. There were definitely aspects that I appreciated about The Citadel and matters that I thought they handled better. The Leave was better. I think part of VMI's issues stem from keeping the Keydets cooped up too much. While I understand road trips can be dangerous, a bunch of guys and girls locked up in an "Institute" will go stir crazy. I also liked the morning PT so there is more time to study and unwind in the afternoons. The main advantage that I saw was the two man rooms. Four to Six man rooms for four years is tough. But maybe that's the purpose... Anyway as a father, I came away thinking I'd be really proud if my son or daughter had the fortitude to attend either. I hope this helps.
 
To follow-up on this, my son got into all three schools and toured the Citadel (COVID limited). In comparison to VMI, the major differences were that the Citadel is bigger, barracks are nicer (mostly two man rooms), and of course, Charleston (warm climate). Leave at the Citadel is more liberal for Knobs and upperclassmen. The Citadel also has military duty (PT) for two mornings while VMI mil duty is always around 3 or 4pm. Additionally, The Citadel appears to encourage company camaraderie more so than VMI. VMI facilities except barracks appear nicer than the Citadel's overall. Academically, it's close but VMI is a little harder to get into. At both schools, academics are solid and the educational experience goes way beyond the books, making it a wash. Ultimately, it came down to in-state verses out-of-state tuition, and proximity to home. Further, we have been very impressed with Sup Wins. Given that he is Class of 85 and my brother is Class of 86, I have a certain comfort level that things will be handled correctly and professionally. There were definitely aspects that I appreciated about The Citadel and matters that I thought they handled better. The Leave was better. I think part of VMI's issues stem from keeping the Keydets cooped up too much. While I understand road trips can be dangerous, a bunch of guys and girls locked up in an "Institute" will go stir crazy. I also liked the morning PT so there is more time to study and unwind in the afternoons. The main advantage that I saw was the two man rooms. Four to Six man rooms for four years is tough. But maybe that's the purpose... Anyway as a father, I came away thinking I'd be really proud if my son or daughter had the fortitude to attend either. I hope this helps.
All 3 are great schools. My DS looked at all 3 as well. My DS is currently a knob at The Citadel (NROTC-MO Contract). PM me if you have any questions from a Parent's perspective (I went to Norwich). I can also put your son in touch with my DS if he wants to get a perspective from a current knob. Good luck to your DS!
 
To follow-up on this, my son got into all three schools and toured the Citadel (COVID limited). In comparison to VMI, the major differences were that the Citadel is bigger, barracks are nicer (mostly two man rooms), and of course, Charleston (warm climate). Leave at the Citadel is more liberal for Knobs and upperclassmen. The Citadel also has military duty (PT) for two mornings while VMI mil duty is always around 3 or 4pm. Additionally, The Citadel appears to encourage company camaraderie more so than VMI. VMI facilities except barracks appear nicer than the Citadel's overall. Academically, it's close but VMI is a little harder to get into. At both schools, academics are solid and the educational experience goes way beyond the books, making it a wash. Ultimately, it came down to in-state verses out-of-state tuition, and proximity to home. Further, we have been very impressed with Sup Wins. Given that he is Class of 85 and my brother is Class of 86, I have a certain comfort level that things will be handled correctly and professionally. There were definitely aspects that I appreciated about The Citadel and matters that I thought they handled better. The Leave was better. I think part of VMI's issues stem from keeping the Keydets cooped up too much. While I understand road trips can be dangerous, a bunch of guys and girls locked up in an "Institute" will go stir crazy. I also liked the morning PT so there is more time to study and unwind in the afternoons. The main advantage that I saw was the two man rooms. Four to Six man rooms for four years is tough. But maybe that's the purpose... Anyway as a father, I came away thinking I'd be really proud if my son or daughter had the fortitude to attend either. I hope this helps.
Funny enough, I always considered PT in the afternoon as the one quality of life advantage of VMI compared to other SMCs. I thought there was still adequate time for homework and even being a morning person, not having to wake up for early PT as an upperclassman was nice. In other aspects, as you pointed out, VMI tends to be equivalent, or more restrictive...which is good or bad depending on what you’re looking for.
 
All 3 are great schools. My DS looked at all 3 as well. My DS is currently a knob at The Citadel (NROTC-MO Contract). PM me if you have any questions from a Parent's perspective (I went to Norwich). I can also put your son in touch with my DS if he wants to get a perspective from a current knob. Good luck to your DS!
Love to speak with you as our son is accepted to both, thinks The Citadel is #1 but being from MA, the financials are looking very lopsided,at this point, in favor of Norwich. Same majors of interest at both schools. Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated
 
Love to speak with you as our son is accepted to both, thinks The Citadel is #1 but being from MA, the financials are looking very lopsided,at this point, in favor of Norwich. Same majors of interest at both schools. Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated
Anytime - Norwich has some great financial aid packages that make it more affordable. The Citadel is doing great things with scholarship offerings to try and attract top candidates. Is your DS pursuing an ROTC scholarship?
 
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