Flying for the Airlines

Stealth_81

Stealth_81

15-Year Member
Founding Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
Messages
3,950
I know there are a bunch of former military pilots on here who now fly commercial. The current hiring environment is robust and son #1 may be applying to potential employers soon. What is your opinion of which major airline will provide the best future? Strictly for my own knowledge and curiosity.

Stealth_81
 
I would say right now the top 2 for pax are Delta and UAL.
Cargo, UPS then FedEx.
This is not a slam on any others. I know pilots who are happy at Southwest, American, Spirit, and others.
Also, I would not discount fractional jet operations such as FlexJet and NetJets. Their home basing can be a great benefit.
I would recommend that if they are getting out before retirement they stay in the Guard/Reserves for the retirement and “plan B”.
Edit- have them look at each airline’s retirement. For example, United’s PRAP adds 16% of what you earned each month into your retirement account. So if you make $10k, UAL adds $1600 to your retirement. Most airlines have some level of this now.
Finally, today’s dope is tomorrow’s darling. You don’t know if you made the right decision until you retire. Look at SWA. Under Herb Kelleher they were the place to be. Today, not as much.
 
Last edited:
DH flies for a major pax airline. He kicks himself for turning down UPS and for not staying in Guard/Reserves. Ultimately, lots of money, advancement, and job security lost. Working for a passenger airline can be a real bummer…dealing with a lot more people (both flying and airports) and the volatility of the industry. DH says, which company feels more comfortable to them; where is the company in the hiring/retirement cycle (FAPA apparently shows info on that); and if base location is important, where do they fly from/to. Following that, ranking would be: FedEx/UPS followed by Delta/United/American, then JetBlue/Alaska/Southwest.
 
The idea that cargo is immune to down turns is false. They weren’t hit by the COVID downturn due to people being locked down, being given “free money”, and spending it on-line. Normally, cargo is hit by a recession before passenger carriers. I had a side job as a chief pilot for a very small cargo carrier in the 2000’s. It was devastated by the Great Recession, and I ended up having to lay off the pilots and help the owner sell the airplanes.
I also flew for a ACMI cargo carrier (Aircraft, Crew, Maintenance, Insurance), and you tell what was going on in the news by our loads. Trade issues with China? Empty airplanes coming back from China. Empty 747s are very expensive.
The interaction with people is dependent on the pilot. Personally, I enjoy the interaction with people. Over 25 years of passenger flying I can probably count the problems I’ve had in one hand with fingers left over. I’d say probably half the problems are caused or exacerbated by poor communication by pilots. I’ve found that passengers may not be happy about maintenance or weather issues, but they are much calmer if you keep them in the loop.
 
He currently has an intent-to-hire letter from a Reserve unit in a location where he still owns a house. One of the big three pax carriers has a domicile there as well so it would seem to be an easy choice. (Providing he has a choice.) Living in domicile and not commuting I think will be a big draw for him. I was just curious if there was a strong opinion here about the options.

Stealth_81
 
Not commuting is a big advantage for QOL. I commuted over the years as a “camp follower” and living in base now is pretty nice.
On the other hand it gives flexibility. I can’t think of another job where I could follow my wife around and keep working.
“Home basing” isn’t bad. I did that at a cargo carrier for a while. They would fly me to where ever my trip started. Then at the end of the trip I would be flown home. Anything over 3 hours was business class. I would get the points for this repositioning. I averaged over 100k miles/year.
 
CurtSouth83 said:
The very best airline is the one that hires you and then doesn't file for bankruptcy. Most people I know love and hate their airlines about equally. Love depositing the checks and hate the back and forth between the company and union.
Click to expand...
That has changed somewhat since transitioning to employee directed and portable retirements. In the past, once you were hired by a”major” you were locked in due to the “A plan” retirements, no matter how poorly they treated you.
Now, it’s “show me da money”. It’s not uncommon today for pilots to shift between airlines, especially in the first few years when they give up little retirement.
With the pilot shortage right now, pilots are taking a longer and harder look at airline management when they decide on a company.
 
In all seriousness it’s a good life. I’m not wearing chicken plate, I actually have A/C in the aircraft, I don’t get MREs, and if I call to the back and ask for a Diet Coke with some ice my crew chief doesn’t laugh at me. I’ve spent time in some wonderful locations- Hawaii, Anchorage, Riga, Istanbul, Brussels, Lisbon, London…
 
Friend flies for UPS / FEDEX ( I won’t say which). The biggest change from the military is being in a union. You are no longer rewarded for being “better,” only staying longer. And no matter how great you were in the military, you almost always start off at the bottom. It can be a rude awakening. Know a guy who was an astronaut who went to this airline. He started at the lowest level. No one cared that he’d piloted the space shuttle.

You don’t lead people. You don’t have missions. You don’t advance, other than eventually to the left seat.

As my friend said: they pay me a lot of money to fly safely from Point A to Point B. They aren’t looking for my suggestions on how to I prove the company. In effect, I’m a highly paid bus driver.

Depending on the airline, you’ll eventually make a lot more money than in the military. You don’t deploy. And after you have worked maybe 10 years, you accrue enough seniority not to fly every major holiday. It’s not a bad life. But it’s also not nirvana. Note that staying in the reserves might ameliorate some of the above.
 
I would not say they don’t take any suggestions. Though things take time, I have seen safety changes in the airlines that the military still hasn’t instituted. An example of this would be the Air Force E-11A that crashed in Afghanistan when the crew shut down the wrong engine. I’ve seen this several times with military pilots in training who respond immediately to an emergency… and do the wrong thing. Airlines have cut immediate action memory items to about 5. Engine failure/fire isn’t one of them.
There are reporting safety systems such as ASAP, and FOQA data that have helped in the airlines in making these changes.
Days off, depends. I’ve been off every Christmas and Thanksgiving in the airlines even though I’ve worked for 3, starting at the bottom each time. Granted, I may have had to go in late on Christmas Day, or get home Thanksgiving morning, but I’ve been there. More than I can say about the military. One just has to learn the “bidding system” and prioritize. Getting off those days may mean missing the 5 day trip to Milan, but I’ll take it.
There is an opportunity to “lead” if one wishes to go that route, becoming a chief pilot and advancing up that route from line pilot. Going instructor/standards.
In the airlines you are well compensated for hard work and that’s a huge difference from the military. In the military I came in and flew extra IP missions to get people up, always volunteered to be flight lead in combat missions, but was paid the same as the “seagull” who we had to throw rocks at to get him off the ground. In the airlines if you want to work the minimum you are paid the minimum. If you want to pick up trips and fly more you are well compensated.
The private sector also believes that time is money. They may require me to take a silly on-line touchy feely course, but they will pay me extra to do so.
 
Just to keep the thread updated, son is pursuing the three big legacy carriers and has had interviews in Atlanta and Dallas so far. He has walked out of the interview with job offers from both of those. He is very happy and things are going well. Now, just hoping the recession holds off until he is trained and gets a bit off the bottom of the seniority list.

Stealth_81
 
Dh kept his foot in the military world by getting hired for an ANG unit after leaving AD and getting hired by a major airline. We were very thankful for this because after working for a year for his airline, 9-11 happened. Years of being laid off, but he had the guard and managed to cobble enough full-time work to earn an AD retirement. When he returned to civilian flying he had great seniority with only the pain of that first year. So that's our recommendation- see if there is an ANG unit that doesn't deploy excessively. The passenger airlines are a bit shaky at times.
 
HawkeyeMom said:
Dh kept his foot in the military world by getting hired for an ANG unit after leaving AD and getting hired by a major airline. We were very thankful for this because after working for a year for his airline, 9-11 happened. Years of being laid off, but he had the guard and managed to cobble enough full-time work to earn an AD retirement. When he returned to civilian flying he had great seniority with only the pain of that first year. So that's our recommendation- see if there is an ANG unit that doesn't deploy excessively. The passenger airlines are a bit shaky at times.
Click to expand...
I agree with this.
Most military don’t understand the civilian world. If you are an airline employee and called to active duty you keep your seniority, meaning while you are gone you continue to move up the pilot list. You are NOT forced to resign. I think there might be a 5 year limit on this, but I haven’t heard of it being enforced at most airlines. When you come back you go through training again depending on how long you have been gone.
If you have drill it is quite easy to drop trips. You may lose pay for the month, but you don’t face any hassles as long as you have legitimate orders.
Even a Guard/Reserve retirement gives you options and flexibility. Look at a retirement calculator and see how much money you would have to invest for that much annual retirement income. The results may shock you. Sixty years old may seem like it’s beyond your scope, but it creeps up faster than you think.
In addition to a backup plan if the economy hits the skids, the reserves/guard lets you be a little more aggressive with your 401k. You can probably let it ride a little longer if there is a market correction as long as you can live on your military retirement income.
 
Stealth_81 said:
Just to keep the thread updated, son is pursuing the three big legacy carriers and has had interviews in Atlanta and Dallas so far. He has walked out of the interview with job offers from both of those. He is very happy and things are going well. Now, just hoping the recession holds off until he is trained and gets a bit off the bottom of the seniority list.

Stealth_81
Click to expand...
I am hoping he chose Atlanta……
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top