“The Golden Ticket?”

BossIsland0

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As I try to decide on whether to accept my appointment or not, I wanted to get some graduates’ perspectives on what is commonly referred to as the “golden ticket:” being able to refer back to your West Point (or other SA) degree as a way to boost your value in the private sector. Undoubtedly, the alumni association of every SA is strong, but is a SA degree really stronger than that of a top 10 university? Could the “golden ticket” really be more of a result of your commitment to at least 5 years active duty?

In case you’re wondering, I am deciding between USMA or ROTC (w/ 4-year scholarship at a top 10 university). Either way, I plan to serve 5+ years active duty infantry. I am committed to service; I care little about free school. It just comes down to summer internships (I have the pipe-dream of going to medical school via Army after my company command), academic rigor, and post-graduate value.

I posted on this thread (versus the USMA one) in hopes to get mature, honest opinions. I am open to criticism and questioning.
 
As someone who has worked alongside and supervised, as well as hired and promoted, former officers, I believe the real value is their leadership experience and accomplishments under stress. It’s not the accession path they took — SA or ROTC (never knew someone from OCS) — but the things they’d done and learned to do while on active duty. It was just more and better than someone with equivalent years since college. Every single one wasn’t better than their civilian counterparts, but on average and as a whole they were. I saw this for former junior officers, but didn’t have the same kind of exposure to anyone higher than that.
 
As someone who has worked alongside and supervised, as well as hired and promoted, former officers, I believe the real value is their leadership experience and accomplishments under stress. It’s not the accession path they took — SA or ROTC (never knew someone from OCS) — but the things they’d done and learned to do while on active duty. It was just more and better than someone with equivalent years since college. Every single one wasn’t better than their civilian counterparts, but on average and as a whole they were. I saw this for former junior officers, but didn’t have the same kind of exposure to anyone higher than that.
Thanks for the input. Though it’s like comparing apple to oranges, I’ve been doing pro/con lists for academics, history, military training, etc. but had no perspective on this subject.
 
+1 to MidCake.

A degree from a top 10 university + Active duty from ROTC = great value in private sector. The exact value may vary according to college major and duties performed in service.

As time passes performance in the private sector trumps all. After the first civilian job and one or two promotions, military service is notable, but less of a factor unless the private sector job has some direct relationship to the military. The university attended continues to carry a label associated with that school, but any association, good or bad, is mitigated by the person and performance.

The difference between how a degree from a top 10 university and a Service Academy is perceived is that the top 10 degree speaks to intelligence. The Service Academy degree speaks to intelligence and character.

Early in the civilian career military jobs are more prominent on a resume and therefore, the ROTC to Active Duty path adds an element of character. Later in the career, those military jobs become one or two lines on a resume, if mentioned at all. However, the schools attended are always prominent, regardless of point in career.
 
Interesting question. There is a shared experience among SA grads that connects them in a way that I think is unique. That connection definitely influences the way many grads interact with each other in the professional world. Your relationship with each other is starting at a different point than it is with others. I don't think it's the degree, it's the benefit of the doubt that is often extended to each other based on that shared experience. I can't say if that exists with traditional universities, but it's very real among the SAs. It doesn't replace the need to perform professionally, but it just helps facilitate things.
 
I wouldn't say any college degree is a "golden ticket." Experience and networking may become a golden ticket, and the people, fields of work, and chance all have a play.
 
It doesn't really matter what your degree says on it, if you're a jackhole. I interviewed a guy several years ago for a position at my company who was a guy out of USMA who had altruistically protected us Americans for the last 5 years. He was so incredibly enamored with himself, that he didn't even listen to my questions. He just regurgitated an obviously rehearsed bucket of drivel that made no difference to me whatsoever. He used the word "subordinates" a total of six (6) times in the course of our interview, ostensibly because he couldn't wait to get some, and lord it over them that he was their new Lord and Savior. I surmised that not a single employee in my company would be able to get through a day without wanting to punch him. At the beginning, I had set aside an hour to talk with him, and on paper he looked like the perfect guy for the job. At the end of 30 minutes, I was the one who wanted to punch him. He didn't get the job.
 
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I decided to add this here, because several folks had already thanked my post above, and I didn't want them to have already "thanked" this part (which I had originally edited in), if they didn't agree with it:

I find it more than a little distasteful that your criteria for picking USMA over ROTC is based on what you perceive as status and what it can do for you monetarily in the future. If you pick USMA based on that, I think you're missing the point.
 
I decided to add this here, because several folks had already thanked my post above, and I didn't want them to have already "thanked" this part (which I had originally edited in), if they didn't agree with it:

I find it more than a little distasteful that your criteria for picking USMA over ROTC is based on what you perceive as status and what it can do for you monetarily in the future. If you pick USMA based on that, I think you're missing the point.

I liked your post! Should we have thanks too? ;)
 
I think the message in this is about the accomplishments of the individual. Presumably whether a person selects ROTC or SA will make no difference to that individual. Hard working person will achieve success no matter what route they take.

Isn’t it possible that you would stay in the military for a career?
 
In my opinion a candidate should objectively weigh every aspect of a major decision, such as choosing between USMA and ROTC, including how that decision may affect life and opportunities several years down the road.

The decision to serve has already been made; researching the details is part of due diligence.
 
I decided to add this here, because several folks had already thanked my post above, and I didn't want them to have already "thanked" this part (which I had originally edited in), if they didn't agree with it:

I find it more than a little distasteful that your criteria for picking USMA over ROTC is based on what you perceive as status and what it can do for you monetarily in the future. If you pick USMA based on that, I think you're missing the point.
I just want to clarify:

I have the utmost respect for SAs, and was committed entirely to USMA up until 2 months ago. I did SLE; I got all 3 congressional nominations; I met daily with my counselor. I love the prestige/history of USMA. I love its purpose and what it does for the Army.

This question is merely a facet of my own decision. I don’t care whether it’s “free college;” I care about how either institution and my experiences during/after will affect me. If I chose the top 10 university, it truly would hurt to say goodbye to the West Point before ever becoming a cadet.
 
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I think the message in this is about the accomplishments of the individual. Presumably whether a person selects ROTC or SA will make no difference to that individual. Hard working person will achieve success no matter what route they take.

Isn’t it possible that you would stay in the military for a career?
That is possible. Whether I continue via infantry and love it more than ever being a doctor, or I continue through the medical corps, I’ll still be in the service. It’s hard to plan the next 10+ years of my life and the Army’s needs and doctrines are always changing. Perhaps I do 10 years of service; perhaps I do 20. I have no idea until I’m there.
 
As I try to decide on whether to accept my appointment or not, I wanted to get some graduates’ perspectives..
BossIsland0 - Congrats on earning a USMA appointment and ROTC scholarship to a top 10 school. You are obviously a high caliber student who's proven himself/herself in school. Some of the posts above give very good perspectives. Please don't mind the criticism you have received above as a result of asking such a question. The violent example of the USMA grad that didn't do well in the job interview, imho, would be the rare exception and not the norm. I've been a lurker on the forums for some time and recently signed up. I think what you've asked is a fair question. And since you've asked to get some graduates' perspectives, here goes:

High moral character is the expectation of service academy graduates. I remember as a mid that every leader that ever came to talk to us always spoke about the importance of integrity. Some of the various leaders who spoke to us included: Gen. Colin Powell, Margaret Thatcher, Ross Perot, Roger Staubach and many other admirals, generals and leaders. The President gave our commencement address. Integrity is one of the most, if not the most, important traits a leader must possess. The service academy experience involves being immersed in a leadership environment with like-minded cadets or midshipmen to become the best leaders and future officers in their respective service. With the exception of VMI, the Citadel, and some other great military colleges, most civilian universities - even the top 10 ones - don't necessarily train on a daily basis for the type of character development you will receive at a service academy. Cadets and midshipmen are responsible for their ethical decisions in everything they do. The leadership values you learn at a service academy will set you up to make the right decisions in the Army and later in life - whether it's five, 10 or 20+ years later. Your future resume and job application will usually have your education listed at the top. Civilian companies recognize the high level of character development that is imbued in every cadet and midshipman. I can tell you for certain that the company I currently work for definitely valued the fact that I attended a service academy. It's a job of special trust and confidence and having the background of a service academy education definitely helped. Also, you'll find after your service that the world is a lot smaller than you think. Your ethical decision making and work ethic will follow you wherever you go.

If you eventually want to become a doctor, I think your opportunities are just as good going to either USMA or the top 10 school. Medical schools will look at your grades and your score on the MCAT from either school. I believe the number was 2% of graduates that could go to medical school. The number has likely changed but it's close. Though the percent of cadets who can select medical corps may be a smaller percent at USMA than perhaps ROTC, you'll likely find that most cadets at USMA don't want to go medical corps. And those who do need to have the grades and the MCAT score. So you'd really be competing against that subset of cadets at USMA. Two of my close classmates from USNA became doctors. One went to medical school right after graduation. He was our family doctor in the Navy, and he delivered our second son, who also just earned an appt to USMA and may be your classmate (we're preparing for a family rivalry with our older USNA mid). The second classmate went to medical school after five years in the Marine Corps. Both are outstanding physicians and wouldn't have changed their experiences. Hope that helps give some perspective. Feel free to PM if you'd like. Good luck with your decision.
 
Immersion is the single best way to describe the SA experience over the ROTC experience. I like that reference along with the fact that at the SAs, you get exposed to a lot that you won't get from a civilian college. You will also take away a bunch of lifelong friends, with whom you share a bond with, like no other.

I did the college + OCS route.
My DS is at an SA, and the experiences he has had already, make me wish I had attended a service academy.
I could have tried, but I doubt that I would have been accepted to one, back then. Too many crayons. :biggrin:
 
BossIsland0 - Congrats on earning a USMA appointment and ROTC scholarship to a top 10 school. You are obviously a high caliber student who's proven himself/herself in school. Some of the posts above give very good perspectives. Please don't mind the criticism you have received above as a result of asking such a question. The violent example of the USMA grad that didn't do well in the job interview, imho, would be the rare exception and not the norm. I've been a lurker on the forums for some time and recently signed up. I think what you've asked is a fair question. And since you've asked to get some graduates' perspectives, here goes:

High moral character is the expectation of service academy graduates. I remember as a mid that every leader that ever came to talk to us always spoke about the importance of integrity. Some of the various leaders who spoke to us included: Gen. Colin Powell, Margaret Thatcher, Ross Perot, Roger Staubach and many other admirals, generals and leaders. The President gave our commencement address. Integrity is one of the most, if not the most, important traits a leader must possess. The service academy experience involves being immersed in a leadership environment with like-minded cadets or midshipmen to become the best leaders and future officers in their respective service. With the exception of VMI, the Citadel, and some other great military colleges, most civilian universities - even the top 10 ones - don't necessarily train on a daily basis for the type of character development you will receive at a service academy. Cadets and midshipmen are responsible for their ethical decisions in everything they do. The leadership values you learn at a service academy will set you up to make the right decisions in the Army and later in life - whether it's five, 10 or 20+ years later. Your future resume and job application will usually have your education listed at the top. Civilian companies recognize the high level of character development that is imbued in every cadet and midshipman. I can tell you for certain that the company I currently work for definitely valued the fact that I attended a service academy. It's a job of special trust and confidence and having the background of a service academy education definitely helped. Also, you'll find after your service that the world is a lot smaller than you think. Your ethical decision making and work ethic will follow you wherever you go.

If you eventually want to become a doctor, I think your opportunities are just as good going to either USMA or the top 10 school. Medical schools will look at your grades and your score on the MCAT from either school. I believe the number was 2% of graduates that could go to medical school. The number has likely changed but it's close. Though the percent of cadets who can select medical corps may be a smaller percent at USMA than perhaps ROTC, you'll likely find that most cadets at USMA don't want to go medical corps. And those who do need to have the grades and the MCAT score. So you'd really be competing against that subset of cadets at USMA. Two of my close classmates from USNA became doctors. One went to medical school right after graduation. He was our family doctor in the Navy, and he delivered our second son, who also just earned an appt to USMA and may be your classmate (we're preparing for a family rivalry with our older USNA mid). The second classmate went to medical school after five years in the Marine Corps. Both are outstanding physicians and wouldn't have changed their experiences. Hope that helps give some perspective. Feel free to PM if you'd like. Good luck with your decision.

Thank you for you help. From what I read, 2% is just the limit of academy graduates that can go directly to medical school and wouldn’t really get in the way of things; I want to get some troop leadership time and general maturity before pursuing medicine. However, It’s nice to hear your perspective and know that either path out of an SA will work out well.
Thanks!
 
I respect all the above posts and generally agree. I was ROTC - as was my husband - and we certainly witnessed some of the benefits of the USMA “connections” and it serves those Officers well - I did envy that at times! ...I have had 3 degrees including my Doctorate paid for by the military so, as a ROTC grad - pretty great opportunities.
Speaking of “experiences”- my DD is in ROTC at Columbia - definitely a top 10 school. She’s done much of her training at USMA ; she’s also had the privilege of real life experience and getting “street smart” in NYC while hearing amazing speakers such as General Jack Keane and Madeleine Albright. She also has gotten to be part of Oprah’s tribute to Women in Service/ the Today Show’s Celebration of Women/ John Stewart and Bruce Springsteen’s shows for Vets...all while getting a Ivy League education. She was selected for Project GO and fully funded to spend the summer in San Diego learning Russian (and getting to surf!). She was selected for an Army internship this summer at MIT before this pandemic. She has a tentative slot for Air Assault in late June if it doesn’t also get cancelled. So LOTS of opportunity in ROTC as well as SA to form a network and build an impressive resume before you even graduate. There’s a life balance that ROTC provides that could be the right choice over an SA for some - and don’t let anyone tell you the “integrity” instilled at an SA gives any future Officer a moral high ground - I know many ROTC grads that have the utmost integrity (and some that don’t) while some SA grads have gotten away with horrible violations of honor behind the shield of their class ring - it’s core behaviors that matter and, IMO, a strong foundation that is well formed well before you will be starting in the Fall.
you seem like an amazing young man and you will surely succeed with either choice.
 
I respect all the above posts and generally agree. I was ROTC - as was my husband - and we certainly witnessed some of the benefits of the USMA “connections” and it serves those Officers well - I did envy that at times! ...I have had 3 degrees including my Doctorate paid for by the military so, as a ROTC grad - pretty great opportunities.
Speaking of “experiences”- my DD is in ROTC at Columbia - definitely a top 10 school. She’s done much of her training at USMA ; she’s also had the privilege of real life experience and getting “street smart” in NYC while hearing amazing speakers such as General Jack Keane and Madeleine Albright. She also has gotten to be part of Oprah’s tribute to Women in Service/ the Today Show’s Celebration of Women/ John Stewart and Bruce Springsteen’s shows for Vets...all while getting a Ivy League education. She was selected for Project GO and fully funded to spend the summer in San Diego learning Russian (and getting to surf!). She was selected for an Army internship this summer at MIT before this pandemic. She has a tentative slot for Air Assault in late June if it doesn’t also get cancelled. So LOTS of opportunity in ROTC as well as SA to form a network and build an impressive resume before you even graduate. There’s a life balance that ROTC provides that could be the right choice over an SA for some - and don’t let anyone tell you the “integrity” instilled at an SA gives any future Officer a moral high ground - I know many ROTC grads that have the utmost integrity (and some that don’t) while some SA grads have gotten away with horrible violations of honor behind the shield of their class ring - it’s core behaviors that matter and, IMO, a strong foundation that is well formed well before you will be starting in the Fall.
you seem like an amazing young man and you will surely succeed with either choice.

A belated congratulations for your DD for getting into Columbia!
Thank you for sharing her experiences with ROTC that I otherwise wouldn’t have heard about.
Take Care!
 
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