12 quit on I-Day

USNA02 said:
We are not a military family. My DS's grandfathers on both sides were in the Navy, but WWII (my dad) and the Korean War (his dad's dad) so that doesn't really count as far as having experienced military life since we weren't born yet. :)

Neither DS #1 (now known as a MidSib), DS #2 (now a Plebe), nor I were surprised. In all honesty it seemed relatively tame, which has been confirmed by numerous sources that the real "yelling" did not begin until those Mother B doors were firmly shut. Of course, I was simply strolling the Yard, enjoying a picnic under the shade of a tent, and then reading on a blanket under the shade of the trees along Stribling Walk. That could have been why it seemed tame. :)

We had all done our homework. Not just the DS going in, but all three of us. I had spent about six solid months on this forum, talked to people who had been there/done that, joined FB groups, and made connections with current and former USNA parents prior to I-Day. DS Plebe did the same.

On the other hand, DS Plebe's dad (my DExH?) and stepmother were completely shocked. It started at Gate 1 when someone behind our group stepped out of line to take a picture of security. The barking began aggressively and loud! DSs and I sort of chuckled discretely amongst the three of us, but the other two were taken by surprise. This is the same dad that asked me when this was going to start being like a "normal college" to which I responded, "ummm . . . never?" He is hopefully getting on board quickly!

Bottom line, a generalization of the differences between military and non-military families might be OK, but I really think it boils down to who did their homework and who didn't.

Doesn't mean that even those that think they are prepared are really prepared for Plebe Summer, but perhaps their chances of seeing it through are better.

Now here's hoping that the first communication from DS Plebe is not one begging me to come get him! :)
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:thumb: +1---think you said it better than I. Thanks!
 
2KPsons said:
You ask a great question, and for some of the kids, the answer is that they went through all the hoops for their parents. I saw the same thing when my sons went to USMMA - a number of young men and women left very quickly, as it had not really been their dream, it was their parents' dream. When faced with the reality on I-Day they do what they feel is right for them.

I actually spoke to a recruited athlete who elected to leave after the first couple of days. He said he had not felt such relief since the process had begun - it started with a recruiting call from a coach and quickly became his parents' goal. He felt steamrolled, but when push came to shove and he had reported, he decided it was not right for him and he left.

I am not saying that this is the case for all who choose to leave, but I think it happens more frequently than most of us would care to admit.

From many of the posts on the "roller coaster/waiting for the mailman" threads (and now also on the reapplication threads) I often get the sense that many of the parents lose sight of the fact that it is their son or daughter doing this and not the parent. It is great to support them, but not to the extent that they are being pushed into something that they might not really want.
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I think that can be true in some cases. I wouldn't lump everyone together, however. Many parents are just sharing in the excitement and are genuinely proud and happy for their child and are anxious.

Are there parents out there living through their kids? Definitely, yes. I saw this in the parents club during the four years my son was attending. It was pretty obvious to a lot of folks, I believe. One of my son's roomates and friend the second year was miserable and really didn't want to be there, but his parents were really putting on the pressure and guilt trip to stay. He finally made the decision to resign after Youngster year before the service commitment was needed. He was relieved. His parents were crestfallen. After this happened, a couple of us in our group talked with them without being judgemental. I don't know if it helped or not but they seemed embarassed, which was an odd reaction. They should have been proud their son was in their to begin with. We never heard from them again despite trying to contact them to see how things were going.

Also, I would add this isn't simply a service academy issue. Some parents push for their kids to select a particular college or career choice over some other decision, when the child would probably be happier elsewhere. The difference is that it is obviously easier for someone to go through a college that wasn't their first choice whereas I think you really have to WANT to be at a service academy to get through four years of what they put you through. If your heart is not in it, you likely will be willing to do anything to get out of the place. Ultimately, all parents need to recognize there is a difference between wanting something for your child and pushing them in a certain direction that might not be the best choice for them. How much this really happens I don't know but you do see it. Just my two cents.
 
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no shows

What might surprise/shock you is the number that doesn't even bother to show on I-day.
 
Despite the rumors, there are typically very few who don't show or who quit on I-Day. A handful usually in total, but not large numbers.
 
Here is a perfect, and timely, example of parental pressure. Yesterday my DH went to get his haircut. He overhead the gentleman in the next chair telling the barber that his daughter was just accepted to West Point for volleyball. DH naturally assumed that he meant she went last week to begin her journey on R-Day. As the conversation progressed, it became evident that the daughter will be class of 2019, as she is on vacation out of the country right now rather than at Beast; and only a rising senior at that, so not headed to the prep school later this month. That must be one amazing girl, getting accepted into USMA a mere five days after the portal for class of 2019 opened! This guy is already telling random people his daughter is going to West Point when not a single person has been accepted for next year. I pity this poor girl if she changes her mind or (more likely) doesn’t even get in for whatever reason. DH kept his mouth shut, came home, told me the story, and we shared a good laugh over it. “Silly parents” we said.
 
Wow, sounds like someone is a little ahead of the game with that Dad. You will see kids go to SAs for a variety of reasons. Regardless of why one goes to a SA, the bottom line is why they stay. Yes some go for sports, academics, parent pressure, free school, to serve, etc. Regardless of where serving falls in that list of why they went, it has to be at the top of the list to stay and graduate. It is too much work and is a miserable place to be unless you want to stay there and serve upon graduation. When I was a detailer we only had one Plebe quit... you would never guess who it was. The prior enlisted Marine made it 10 weeks into the semester and left. He hated it. I actually think he hated the Marine Corps too. My next door neighbor at USNA was the future CJCS... talk about pressure. He made it, did well and left after his 5 years. My buddy when I was in the fleet was the son of the Commandant of the Marine Corps. You would of never guest it, he was the most non-Marine Marine I knew! He did his 4 years and left. Just like it can be a total surprise who stays and leaves at USNA, it is the same for those who stay and leave active duty. Life changes, priorities change, expectations vs. reality, etc. all factor into these decisions.

For those with new Plebes I am sure it has been a roller coaster. They made the first two big markers...4th of July and their first Sunday. They are learning to break up the days to the next major event or small break. When you get that first call you will be surprised at the range of feedback you get. They probably haven't done anything right in a week. Give them lots of support and you will see the phone calls get more positive as they realize they can make it and are starting to figure things out. Oh and those smiles you saw on I-Day after they swore in... remember they had not been yelled at yet or dropped for push ups. That didn't happen until they swore in. So when those doors closed behind them... it is totally different than when they entered them!
 
It could be that the volleyball player has verbally committed to WP. Obviously not the same as receiving an appt, but dad may be jumping ahead a few miles.
 
NavyHoops said:
Wow, sounds like someone is a little ahead of the game with that Dad. You will see kids go to SAs for a variety of reasons. Regardless of why one goes to a SA, the bottom line is why they stay. Yes some go for sports, academics, parent pressure, free school, to serve, etc. Regardless of where serving falls in that list of why they went, it has to be at the top of the list to stay and graduate. It is too much work and is a miserable place to be unless you want to stay there and serve upon graduation. When I was a detailer we only had one Plebe quit... you would never guess who it was. The prior enlisted Marine made it 10 weeks into the semester and left. He hated it. I actually think he hated the Marine Corps too. My next door neighbor at USNA was the future CJCS... talk about pressure. He made it, did well and left after his 5 years. My buddy when I was in the fleet was the son of the Commandant of the Marine Corps. You would of never guest it, he was the most non-Marine Marine I knew! He did his 4 years and left. Just like it can be a total surprise who stays and leaves at USNA, it is the same for those who stay and leave active duty. Life changes, priorities change, expectations vs. reality, etc. all factor into these decisions.

For those with new Plebes I am sure it has been a roller coaster. They made the first two big markers...4th of July and their first Sunday. They are learning to break up the days to the next major event or small break. When you get that first call you will be surprised at the range of feedback you get. They probably haven't done anything right in a week. Give them lots of support and you will see the phone calls get more positive as they realize they can make it and are starting to figure things out. Oh and those smiles you saw on I-Day after they swore in... remember they had not been yelled at yet or dropped for push ups. That didn't happen until they swore in. So when those doors closed behind them... it is totally different than when they entered them!
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That sounds reasonable. Every individual is different and there is no way to predict with certainty the outcome of something with so many variables involved. I would just opine that the outcome of nudging a son/daughter towards a service academy when it really may not be their first choice in college/career path would be much more likely to produce a service academy DOR than a successful USNA graduate with a long career in the service.

Of course that doesn't mean you won't see those who were nudged by parents or others turn out to be highly successful at the Academy and into their Naval careers. But that would likely represent the exception and not the rule. I suspect that if, during your B&G interview to the academy, you answered the question, "Why do you want to attend the USNA ?" with, "Because my parents really want me to come here", your chances of receiving an appointment would be reduced to 0%.

People tend to be successful when they are the most motivated by the tasks they are undertaking. When the going gets rough, lack of motivation can turn even the best and brightest into underachieving cynics who become frustrated. If motivation wasn't important, you wouldn't be asked such questions in the interview. The Academies would just take the chance that that the person will become properly motivated.
 
2 perspectives

My Step-daughter was highly pursued by USNA for women's volleyball - she's 6' 1" and has a hell-of-a vertical jump, plays middle. She went for her official visit and called her mother and step-father to come get her. It wasn't for her and she knew it. Ended up at UVA with a full ride.

My daughter (as I've shared before) made the call to the women's rowing coach (she rowed here for a club) and was invited for an official visit and the rest is history. She loves it. I kept my mouth shut as well - well maybe not here, but I'm with a group that will tell me to shut up if I get out of line. :shake:

With athletics being such a big part of all SA, and the fact that women are not as likely to pursue a military career, women's athletics are a bit different to recruit than men's at SA's.

Just my take.
 
Its a travesty if anyone doesn't show up for I-Day, or quits on the walk in. I wish there were a way to measure the hearts of young men and women in the interview/admission process, for there are many deserving who wouldn't let this honor slip away. And just as bad, in my mind, at least, is the fact that USNA won't fill those positions with those people who truly want to serve.

The country loses all the way around....
 
parentalunit2 said:
This guy is already telling random people his daughter is going to West Point when not a single person has been accepted for next year. I pity this poor girl if she changes her mind or (more likely) doesn’t even get in for whatever reason.
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She may have gotten an LOA (my son received an LOA at about this time...before senior yr of high school even started). Why is telling your barber an example of parental pressure VS parental pride? Your comment doesn't make sense to me.
 
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I'm confused about how LOAs go out to folks who have no applied to a school. No physical, nomination, application, interviews.... and an LOA is tendered? Not the experience I had with my USNA LOA.

From the point of view of a one time freshman "swab" and one time junior "cadre".... kids arrive at an academy with full range of knowledge and experiences. Some have relatives that either went to an academy or were in the military.

My dad's half brother (does that make him my half uncle) was enlisted in the Coast Guard and had some feedback (not all helpful) about the Coast Guard Academy. He also encouraged me.

My parents were never in the military. My expectations of the academy came from meeting with a CGA cadet and USNA midshipmen who visited my high school, from talking to academy representatives at my Congressman's "Academy Day," and eventually going to each school and talking to the cadets/midshipmen I shadowed. I also watched a few movies available on the subject.

That said, MANY applicants DON'T do that. Even today, with the MANY sources available to applicants, they either aren't aware or don't make the effort to research it.

The experience of that summer can be VERY surprising for anyone not expecting it. Heck, it was shocking for me, and I at least had SOME idea of what I was getting into.

It's not easy to leave after the first day. Cadets processed out don't just got ring a bell and head for the door. There is an entire process that involves paper work and interviews and some encouragement from chaplain staff or counselors.

I remember, in our first week, we had a very motivational flag folding ceremony in the wing area of my platoon. The center piece was this red head kid. The next day he disappeared. We didn't know what happened. Later we found out he decided to leave. But now and then rumors would circulate that a swab had seen the platoon of dropouts in another "distant" wing area. I always feared making a wrong turn and ending up in the middle of the drop out platoon.

In reality the swabs who dropped out were kept in a different area while their requests were being processed.

Some kids come with pressure. Not every parent means to apply that pressure. I felt it, but not because my parents wanted me to. I just didn't want to disappoint them, my family and friends.... all who were cheering and praying for me. So much of the pressure is placed on them (swabs/plebes) by themselves.

Kids will leave on the first day. Not many, but a small handful. More will leave that first week, sometimes for issues like color blindness or legal issues back home. Others may leave later in the summer. Others may leave after two years.

They each leave for their own reasons and, while folks not involved may challenge "why leave," their classmates are less likely to judge, because they realize the thought of leaving has gone through their minds too (it certainly did for me).
 
Every college has kids who leave very early in their first semester, many in the first week. There are several I hear of every fall.

So it's not surprising that the Academies will have them as well especially given the more stressful start-up. As someone else posted, these are 17/18 year old kids whose whole lives have been relatively stable and within a known environment. I think many cases it is just the shock of change.
 
I had two classmates who started a day or two AFTER R-day! Think about THAT pressure! HAHA! :eek:
 
GAXC said:
Its a travesty if anyone doesn't show up for I-Day, or quits on the walk in. I wish there were a way to measure the hearts of young men and women in the interview/admission process, for there are many deserving who wouldn't let this honor slip away. And just as bad, in my mind, at least, is the fact that USNA won't fill those positions with those people who truly want to serve.

The country loses all the way around....
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A bigger travesty is to show up and stick around after realizing that he or she made a wrong decision. Yes, at a young age they might not realize that they might be making a wrong decision they will regret sevearl years from now. But, who are we to say a cadet or midshipman is wrong when decides that they made a wrong decision.
 
LineInTheSand said:
I'm confused about how LOAs go out to folks who have no applied to a school. No physical, nomination, application, interviews.... and an LOA is tendered? .
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Son is now a youngster and in the application process that can be a lifetime-things change so fast. I think LOAs and LOEs are decreasing but that is just my opinion.

~this time last year DS had an LOE to USMA & LOA to USNA. Nominations aren't given until November (four months AFTER the LOE/LOA) son had everything thing in his application completed by ~ 2nd wk of June other than the Nominations. Your LOA letter says that final acceptance is contingent upon getting a nomination. Bringing your LOA & LOE letter to your MOC interview sure helps to secure that nomination...:wink:
 
Just curious after reading all of these posts, does anyone know for certain if USNA fills the slots that are opened in the first week? I know of one candidate who was turned away on IDay, and is now going to the Foundation School (which I know nothing about). They will be in Class of 2019. It is tough to see anyone not report/drop/be dropped. I wonder if we will ever hear the correct answer. I have seen the class size listed at many different amounts. Was the final number 1192 or 1186? or something else?

Best wishes to all. I am anxiously awaiting word from our Plebe!
 
18mamag said:
Just curious after reading all of these posts, does anyone know for certain if USNA fills the slots that are opened in the first week? I know of one candidate who was turned away on IDay, and is now going to the Foundation School (which I know nothing about). They will be in Class of 2019. It is tough to see anyone not report/drop/be dropped. I wonder if we will ever hear the correct answer. I have seen the class size listed at many different amounts. Was the final number 1192 or 1186? or something else?

Best wishes to all. I am anxiously awaiting word from our Plebe!
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I don't know, really. I do know that in years past some wait-listed candidates have been on stand-by on on I day in the event of no-shows. They would physically be present on I-Day in the hopes of securing an open slot. Whether they ever got called I don't know.

As far as drops during Plebe summer, I do not believe those are ever filled. I believe that when the incoming class size is set, they take into account the expected attrition based on historical trends and stats. It is kind of like airlines overbooking a flight. Statistics indicate that a certain percentage of passengers won't show or cancel/change their flight, so if an Airline wants to mazimize profit and ensure a full flight, they overbook based on that historical percentage.

There will always be candidates who drop during Plebe summer and the first two academic years. Nothing will change that. Regardless of how well admissions does its job, there will always be a few who have second-thoughts or simply find out they are not compatible with life at the SA. The goal of admissions is obviously to be able to ascertain with as high a degree of accuracy as possible who is most likely to succeed, but we need to remember that there are no models that can predict human behavior with complete certainty.
 
18mamag said:
Just curious after reading all of these posts, does anyone know for certain if USNA fills the slots that are opened in the first week? I know of one candidate who was turned away on IDay, and is now going to the Foundation School (which I know nothing about).
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Some are dropped on I-Day for medical reasons -- basically medical determines they are unable to participate in PS for an extended period. In such cases, they may be offered Foundation (a civilian prep school funded by a combination of private funds, parents and the school itself) or may simply be told to reapply for next year (and have a really great shot of being readmitted if their medical situation resolves).

However, in answer to your specific question, the answer is no. About 8 yrs ago, one Supe did allow about 10 plebes to start a week later to fill the slots of those who did not show up, who quit on I-Day, etc. THAT NO LONGER HAPPENS. It was a one-shot deal under a previous USNA administration. Now, if someone quits, that's one less person in the class. Period.

Finally, to the above poster who asked why the interview process doesn't weed out these folks -- remember that interviews usually are 1-hr events conducted by a BGO. We aren't interrogators. We ask the questions but if kids lie to us, there's not a lot we can do about ferreting out the "truth." Also, some kids really believe USNA is right for them -- sometimes even after NASS and/or CVW. However, once a plebe, they realize that being there day in and day out is very different than being there for 5 days or watching someone else be there. There really is no way to predict when that will happen.
 
It was the terminology that got me. He is telling someone his daughter ‘has been accepted to’ and ‘is going to’ West Point when in fact she has not even fully completed the application or nomination process. She may not have even plugged one piece of info into her portal yet! I understand that she may have an LOA in hand at this point, but pops sure was getting ahead of himself saying that she is going to West Point (as if it is fact) when there are still so many hoops to jump through and anything can happen over the next year.

Parental pride sure…..but say that she is being considered by West Point for her sport and she may attend there. This is a perfect example of a parent being so enamored with the potential opportunity of their kid attending an SA that in his mind, she is already in and going. Again, the shiny admissions brochures, the uniforms, the pomp and circumstance of seeing one parade or football game. Gee, those cadets/midshipmen are really polite young people…..I really want my kid to be a part of this! They can get quite obsessed and it is not even their life.
 
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