2 Women Share 1st Kiss at US Navy Ship's Return

[Luigi59]

i'd bet my life that there are homosexuals here too! no argument there....but unfortunately i could also bet my life there are pedophiles elsewhere in the Air Force as well. but that doesn't mean the military should support or condone pedophilic actions. now, i'm not saying homosexual actions = pedophilia, i'm simply saying that just because people feel a certain way doesn't mean it's right to act upon those feelings, let alone have the government openly condone those actions to be "right".

so, yes, i believe the public condoning of homesexual actions is something that is evidence of this nation's moral depravity -- a depravity, which if not fixed, will play a key role in America's eventual demise.

Who gets to judge "moral"?

On what basis or standard will "they" use to establish what is "moral" and what is "immoral??

Is there any basis in the Constitution where someone's definition of "moral" and "immoral" is used to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, or secure the blessings of liberty for every American?

 

[usnabgo08]

USAFA 2012,

While you can have all the personal opinions you want, I just hope it doesn't bleed over into your role as a leader. You must care for a homosexual airmen as much as you would for a heterosexual airmen, regardless of your morals. Someone who can't regulate their personal opinion with what is required by U.S. law, regulations, and legal orders of DOD, doesn't deserve a position of trust as a commissioned officer in the armed forces.

 

[cisco]

I believe the public condoning of homosexual actions is something that is evidence of this nation's moral depravity -- a depravity, which if not fixed, will play a key role in America's eventual demise.

Two women kissing = The fall of America.

I'm very curious to know what exactly is your reasoning to think that PDA of homosexuals will result in the "eventual demise" of America?

 

[goaliedad]

i'd bet my life that there are homosexuals here too! no argument there....but unfortunately i could also bet my life there are pedophiles elsewhere in the Air Force as well. but that doesn't mean the military should support or condone pedophilic actions. now, i'm not saying homosexual actions = pedophilia, i'm simply saying that just because people feel a certain way doesn't mean it's right to act upon those feelings, let alone have the government openly condone those actions to be "right".


so, yes, i believe the public condoning of homesexual actions is something that is evidence of this nation's moral depravity -- a depravity, which if not fixed, will play a key role in America's eventual demise.

It is not the government's role to determine what is "right" from what is "wrong", but that which is "legal" from that which is "illegal". And while what is "right" and what is "wrong" goes into determine what is "legal" and what is "illegal", the fact that there is not a universally accepted idea of what is "right" and "wrong" among the US citizenry leads us to confine what is "illegal" to those things that are universally accepted as harmful to others (especially those who cannot fend for themselves) or are harmful to the national interest.

And while you may feel homosexual behavior is wrong, that is not universally accepted in this country, nor has it ever been proven as physically or mentally harmful to consenting adults who are of that predisposition.

So when you bring up pedophillia, you bring up a behavior that IS harmful as children (and thus made "ILLEGAL") are universally understood as incapable of mentally dealing with the sexual behaviour of adults engaged in those acts.

And while you claim not to be comparing the 2, you compare how the military handles the 2, although in no way does the military "condone" homosexuality, it only says that people of that orientation shall not be treated any differently from any other people (racial minorities, women, etc.).

You are entitled to be grossed out by the actions of the 2 women in the picture. However, as a member of the military, you are not allowed to let your personal feelings affect your behavior (hopefully you have a good poker face because giving the evil eye to your homosexual subordinates is not allowed either) as a member of the military. And you will find this to be the case in the civilian workplace as well, so you might as well get used to the fact that you will probably be dealing with this throughout your career.

And as to your betting your life, I don't think any of us care about the sexual orientation of the other members, nor would we be able to prove the negative (a lack of homosexuals here). And I guess the homosexuals here are no problem to you like the ones you may have to command. Geez! I think you have bigger things to fear once commissioned.

 

[USAFA_2012]

first things first: even though i am opinionated on this issue, i will not let it determine the way i treat those airmen under my command who are homosexual. that's what's great about an internet forum: anonymity! i wouldn't say this in any official capacity. again; my qualm is not with homosexuals, but with the military's public condoning of the homosexual lifestyle.

why do i think this, some of you ask?

in short, there is one main source i rely on, but referencing it would lead us down a daunting rabbit hole from which there is no escape . so i'll attempt to answer it using an objective, scholarly source.

in 1947, a sociologist named Dr. Carle Zimmerman wrote a book called Family and Civilization. in it he studies the demise of several civilizations and takes note of certain trends. these civilizations include Rome, Greece, and medeival europe. the trends are as follows:

1. The breakdown of marriage and rise of divorce.

2. The loss of the traditional meaning of the marriage ceremony.

3. The rise of Feminism.

4. Increased public disrespect for parents and authority in general.

5. Acceleration of juvenile delinquency, promiscuity and rebellion.

6. Refusal of people with traditional marriages to accept their family responsibilities.

7. A growing desire for and acceptance of adultery.

8. Increasing interest in and spread of sexual perversions (homosexuality) and sex-related crimes.

again...this book was written in 1947! see any similarities between these trends and America today, or Europe today?

obviously the 8th trend is what i'm focusing on, and Zimmerman is not alone. Edward Gibbons in his 6 Volume masterpiece, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (published in 1781), identifies one of the main themes of Rome's fall as the rampant acceptance of homosexual behavior....SPECIFICALLY in the military ranks.

obviously we are not a mirror image of any of the aforementioned civilizations...but like i said, i fear for where we are heading and the track we are on. history has shown it: if we don't get back on the right "moral" track, we will crumble from within.


of course, this is a perfect time to quote Philosopher George Santayana: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

 

[LineInTheSand]

Can I have permission to use that line?

Absolutely.

 

[Hurricane12]

On a personal and professional level I completely disagree with you. Your personal views on homosexuality are your own, and on that we'll just have to agree to disagree. Personally, I have a homosexual uncle who served honorably in the Army and feel that if he had been allowed to do so openly the sky wouldn't have fallen.

On a professional level, however, I have a hard time buying that the "I feel really strongly about this for moral reasons, but totally won't let it influence my leadership style" thing. Maybe you can, and in that you'd be a whole lot better than a lot of people I've met at school and on fleet cruises, and I mean that not just related to opinions on homosexuality.

I find the homosexuality/divorce/feminism (gasp! Can't let the womenfolk out of the kitchen)=moral decay=decline of western civilization a poorly framed, weak, and over-generalized argument at best.
When related to other civilizations and historic events, it fails to take into account that decline of, say, Rome was a vast and incredibly complex combination of factors (economic, political, military, social, etc) that can't be glibly explained away by blaming the gays.

It's also interesting you chose Gibbon. Do you remember what else he said helped lead to a decline of civic virtue?

of course, this is a perfect time to quote Philosopher George Santayana: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

No it's not.

 

[Aglahad]

first things first: even though i am opinionated on this issue, i will not let it determine the way i treat those airmen under my command who are homosexual. that's what's great about an internet forum: anonymity! i wouldn't say this in any official capacity. again; my qualm is not with homosexuals, but with the military's public condoning of the homosexual lifestyle.

why do i think this, some of you ask?

in short, there is one main source i rely on, but referencing it would lead us down a daunting rabbit hole from which there is no escape . so i'll attempt to answer it using an objective, scholarly source.

in 1947, a sociologist named Dr. Carle Zimmerman wrote a book called Family and Civilization. in it he studies the demise of several civilizations and takes note of certain trends. these civilizations include Rome, Greece, and medeival europe. the trends are as follows:

1. The breakdown of marriage and rise of divorce.

2. The loss of the traditional meaning of the marriage ceremony.

3. The rise of Feminism.

4. Increased public disrespect for parents and authority in general.

5. Acceleration of juvenile delinquency, promiscuity and rebellion.

6. Refusal of people with traditional marriages to accept their family responsibilities.

7. A growing desire for and acceptance of adultery.

8. Increasing interest in and spread of sexual perversions (homosexuality) and sex-related crimes.

again...this book was written in 1947! see any similarities between these trends and America today, or Europe today?

obviously the 8th trend is what i'm focusing on, and Zimmerman is not alone. Edward Gibbons in his 6 Volume masterpiece, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (published in 1781), identifies one of the main themes of Rome's fall as the rampant acceptance of homosexual behavior....SPECIFICALLY in the military ranks.

obviously we are not a mirror image of any of the aforementioned civilizations...but like i said, i fear for where we are heading and the track we are on. history has shown it: if we don't get back on the right "moral" track, we will crumble from within.


of course, this is a perfect time to quote Philosopher George Santayana: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

While you certainly bring up some interesting points, I personally just don't care enough about the issue to let it affect me me. Not a me problem sort of thing. I have read part of Gibbon's work it is pretty thorough and a decent albeit dry read.

 

[br1ankim24]

in 1947, a sociologist named Dr. Carle Zimmerman wrote a book called Family and Civilization. in it he studies the demise of several civilizations and takes note of certain trends. these civilizations include Rome, Greece, and medeival europe. the trends are as follows:

1. The breakdown of marriage and rise of divorce.

2. The loss of the traditional meaning of the marriage ceremony.

3. The rise of Feminism.

4. Increased public disrespect for parents and authority in general.

5. Acceleration of juvenile delinquency, promiscuity and rebellion.

6. Refusal of people with traditional marriages to accept their family responsibilities.

7. A growing desire for and acceptance of adultery.

8. Increasing interest in and spread of sexual perversions (homosexuality) and sex-related crimes.

again...this book was written in 1947! see any similarities between these trends and America today, or Europe today?

obviously the 8th trend is what i'm focusing on, and Zimmerman is not alone. Edward Gibbons in his 6 Volume masterpiece, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (published in 1781), identifies one of the main themes of Rome's fall as the rampant acceptance of homosexual behavior....SPECIFICALLY in the military ranks.

obviously we are not a mirror image of any of the aforementioned civilizations...but like i said, i fear for where we are heading and the track we are on. history has shown it: if we don't get back on the right "moral" track, we will crumble from within.

I wonder why Nazi Germany fell, considering it repressed homosexuality and even went far to kill homosexuals? :/

Rome fell mostly because of foreign invaders, political instablity (power struggles for the throne in the last years), and economic problems.
Ancient greece fell because of the wars between the Greek city-states.
Medieval Europe, feudalism rather, declined because Reformation, Humanism, Enlightenment, and many other movements that challenged the status quo.

Another case of post-hoc fallacy.

 

[Beaz]

It's not "Mission Oriented"...so let's move on.

 

[Luigi59]

if we don't get back on the right "moral" track, we will crumble from within.

Damn that Constitution and its 1st Amendment! (and the EPC of the 14th)

This is the kind of thinking that gets USAFA into trouble year after year. Trying to impose someone else's definition of morality and judging "what's right" based on........what?

Who gets to judge "moral"?

On what basis or standard will "they" use to establish what is "moral" and what is "immoral??

You do realize that a homosexual person can be moral and ethical?

 

[rkrosnar]

2 Women share 1st kiss....

Food for thought,

I Corinthians 6:9

6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals

This is what God says in the bible.

RGK

 

[sprog]

Food for thought,

I Corinthians 6:9

6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals

This is what God says in the bible.

RGK

More food for thought:

I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children." (Leviticus 26:22)

"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)

"The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women" (Ezechial 9:4-6)

"When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves." (Deuteronomy 20:13-14)

"You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you." (Deuteronomy 28:53)

"The Lord said to Joshua [...] 'you are to hamstring their horses.' " (Exceedingly cruel.) (Joshua 11:6)

"... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." (Judges 21:10-12)

"This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass .... And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword." (1 Samuel 15:3,7-8)

"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their women with child ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)

"A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work!
A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!" (Jeremiah 48:10)

Conclusion: The Bible says a bunch of crazy sh!t.

I do, however, seem to recall that Jesus was big into turning the other cheek. So if religion is your bag, and it really doesn't have a place on this forum, maybe you should consider that.

 

[Pima]

so, yes, i believe the public condoning of homesexual actions is something that is evidence of this nation's moral depravity -- a depravity, which if not fixed, will play a key role in America's eventual demise.

Our country IMPO is still the beacon of light. I cannot and will not support your comment.

And your defense still does not sway me. Actually, as a woman, the "rise of feminism" that you quoted with your homosexuality fears, makes me believe you are intolerant. JMPO.

The two aspects combined says to me you want the good old boy system that existed 35 yrs ago.

I hope I am wrong, I hope that I have mis-interpreted why you state things like the fall is due to feminism or traditional roles and homosexuality is a perversion.

I hope you understand just as you didn't choose to be heterosexual, they didn't choose to be homosexual. I believe no one in this world would want to be fighting the world for acceptance, and would do everything to be accepted if they could accept that lifestyle.

Before you make a judgement because society has said you are "normal", pretend for a day that homosexuality was the accepted normal. Can you tell me you would be able to be a homosexual? Can a religious or psychiatric intervention make you want to be with a man when you are attracted to a woman? Remember you would be the minority.

Finally, one you are in combat do you give a rat's arse about their orientation?

That kiss IMPO was beautiful. As a heterosexual woman, who spent many times on the flight line waiting for that kiss it was everything that matters...LOVE and COMMITMENT.

Instead of worrying about the kiss, worry about supporting your peers.

 

[Bullet]

USAFA 2012,

If I understand this correctly, you have an issue with the open acceptance of homosexuality, as you view it as another example of the moral decay of America. I don't think I would be too far off if I assummed (as most here have) that this stems from your own religious beliefs and the way they influence your moral compass. (But we all know the classic line about assumming).

And that's fine, you have every right to that. In fact, it is more than fine, it's protected by our Constitution (which, IMPO, is the REAL reason for America's strength and continued leadership role in the World, and not whether or not Lady Gaga and Snookie remain MTV fixtures).

But while you're discussing YOUR moral beliefs, I have to ask: how do you reconcile the demands of the profession you have chosen to pursue with that slighty contradictory moral guidance the Christian faith has placed it's highest priority on? You know, the one that say's: "Love thy enemy", and "Turn the other cheek". There may come a day when you are given the order (or give the order) to "take that hill, knock down that enemy, put your knee to his chest, and slice his throat with the knife in your hand!"

Cold hard fact about military service: you are there to ensure the safety and security of America. And being prepared to kill, in all its gory and horrible connotations, is an intimate part of that equation. War is NOT a video game; it is a brutal and ugly thing. A thing that no religion teaches is morally correct or proper. You need to reconcile that for yourself before you start worrying about whom the guy or gal next to you is kissing.

And if the guy (or gal) next to me on that hill also has his knee to the enemy's chest, knife in hand ready to slash, I couldn't CARE LESS if he (or she) was dressed like Brazilian Samba dancer while singing Liza Minelli show tunes. (But uniform regs may have a thing or two to say about that )

In fact, I may just join him in a line of "Cabaret" or two, as long as we're both getting the MISSION DONE!

 

[Pima]

In fact, I may just join him in a line of "Cabaret" or two, as long as we're both getting the MISSION DONE!

LMAO right now, because I can bet the lives of our children he would be the one to lead it!

 

[LineInTheSand]

Some would say feminism, and historic feminists are actually holding women back these days (see Backman, Palin).

A number of people would agree with USAFA_2012, but may not be willing to be as vocal about it.

No matter what your stance, you've got to decide if you can be a member of an organization that condones homosexuality (as like over federal agencies.... celebrates it). Pharmacists do the same kind of soul searching with Plan B, morning after pills, etc. It's a legit question to go over with yourself.

 

[sprog]

so, yes, i believe the public condoning of homesexual actions is something that is evidence of this nation's moral depravity -- a depravity, which if not fixed, will play a key role in America's eventual demise.

This sounds similar to something that would be said, in Farsi of course, in Tehran in 1979. Just substitutie the word "Iran" for "America."

 

[Bullet]

LMAO right now, because I can bet the lives of our children he would be the one to lead it!

"Life is a Cabaret, my friend! So come to our CA -BAH - RAAAAAY!"

2-3-Kick-turn, 2-3-Kick-Turn, 2-3-Kick....

 

[Christcorp]

first things first: even though i am opinionated on this issue, i will not let it determine the way i treat those airmen under my command who are homosexual. that's what's great about an internet forum: anonymity! i wouldn't say this in any official capacity. again; my qualm is not with homosexuals, but with the military's public condoning of the homosexual lifestyle.

why do i think this, some of you ask?

in short, there is one main source i rely on, but referencing it would lead us down a daunting rabbit hole from which there is no escape . so i'll attempt to answer it using an objective, scholarly source.

in 1947, a sociologist named Dr. Carle Zimmerman wrote a book called Family and Civilization. in it he studies the demise of several civilizations and takes note of certain trends. these civilizations include Rome, Greece, and medeival europe. the trends are as follows:

1. The breakdown of marriage and rise of divorce.

2. The loss of the traditional meaning of the marriage ceremony.

3. The rise of Feminism.

4. Increased public disrespect for parents and authority in general.

5. Acceleration of juvenile delinquency, promiscuity and rebellion.

6. Refusal of people with traditional marriages to accept their family responsibilities.

7. A growing desire for and acceptance of adultery.

8. Increasing interest in and spread of sexual perversions (homosexuality) and sex-related crimes.

again...this book was written in 1947! see any similarities between these trends and America today, or Europe today?

obviously the 8th trend is what i'm focusing on, and Zimmerman is not alone. Edward Gibbons in his 6 Volume masterpiece, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (published in 1781), identifies one of the main themes of Rome's fall as the rampant acceptance of homosexual behavior....SPECIFICALLY in the military ranks.

obviously we are not a mirror image of any of the aforementioned civilizations...but like i said, i fear for where we are heading and the track we are on. history has shown it: if we don't get back on the right "moral" track, we will crumble from within.


of course, this is a perfect time to quote Philosopher George Santayana: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

USAFA2012: Not saying I agree or disagree with your position. There's enough opinions on the subject that my added commentary isn't needed.

But I would like to openly commend you on a very well thought out, researched, and articulated argument. Noting bothers me more than for a person to have an opinion on a topic that isn't truly THEIR opinion. "That's the way I was brought up....."; "That's the way I was taught......"; "Because the bible says so......."; etc... I've been in heated debates in a group, where I've actually defended the side of the individual opposed to my position, AGAINST a person who was siding with me. WHY? Because the person siding with me didn't have an "Independent thought". He was simply on my band wagon based on his background and influences. I have no respect for that opinion. Even if it's the same as mine. The other person; while being diametrically opposed to my position and thoughts, had an independent opinion. He used information he researched and studied and formulated into an opinion. I have the UTMOST RESPECT for that type of opinion. Unfortunately, when I don't respect an opinion, because I can tell the individual is full of bull and is lazy, and simply spouting someone else's position, I tend to tell them that they are full of krap.

Anyway, as I said, I am not saying that I agree or disagree with your position on this topic; or morals in general. I just find it refreshing to see, especially on a forum, someone who can have a personal and individual opinion, and they have studied and researched information prior to formulating such an opinion. Especially from a younger individual. Good for you. That one post, shows me that you are indeed open minded, willing to reconsider your position, and most of all able to separate your personal beliefs with your professional responsibilities. Good for you.

And now that I have said my peace, let me just say that "Contrary to my screen name", I have no problem with gays openly serving in the military. But that doesn't detract from the fact that you presented an excellent argument, it's well thought out, and I have total respect for you and your position. Even more so than the opinions of some others who are similar to mine. Not directly responding to opinions expressed on this thread. This forum is not the only place this topic has/does/will come up. Anyway; good job.