2014 profile

[Memphis9489]

Yes, yes, yes! The Navy Times article shows that USNA PAO made the news release, same as last year. The fact that no one picked up on it and decided it was newsworthy is because it is indeed old news, just as JAM stated. Or are you adding manipulation of the news media to Adm Fowler's list of 'sins'?

You're limiting the diversity discussion to the Navy Times article. I'm talking about the more widespread general media on DAY ONE ... on I-Day.

Seriously, your explanation is that it is "old news"? Since when has the Navy, the Naval Academy in particular, when it achieves its goal, not trumpeted that fact - especially when it is a record-breaker? It's not as if this has been the goal for a very long time. The diversity push is actually a rather recent objective so it's hard to imagine that it has so rapidly become "old news." You think that is the explanation? Pfft!

FACT: The Class of 2013 was getting heralded from all corners as the most racially diverse class in Academy history from the very beginning. In fact, before I-Day, the rumor mill was already set into motion about the upcoming record-breaking diversity. News segments like the one below ruled the day. And this was before any Navy Times article ever came out or before there was any PAO release on the class profile.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kivZ2vdxbCw

FACT: Nothing close to this happened for the Class of 2014 although, apparently, it is more racially diverse than the Class of 2013.

You don't find that the least bit curious?

The Academy has stated ad naseum that they targeted historically underrepresented congressional districts to obtain the diversity goals they were seeking. Do you feel that the federal law is incorrect in that all districts should be represneted if there are qualified candidates in those districts who wish to attend? Or are these districts somehow undeserving?

The Academy has also stated, ad naseum, that the Admiissions Board does not give preferential consideration to candidates based on their race. So, do you think a highly qualified, non-minority candidate from an "underrepresented congressional district" has the same chance of admission, based on merit, as a minority candidate from that same "underrepresented congressional district"?

My only problem with this new push for "diversity" is this:

1. Just say it! Stop pretending that it's a "geographic" effort when, in reality, it's a "racial" effort. I would have more respect for the Naval Academy if they just came right out and said, "Our goal it to achieve a minimum of 35% minorities for each incoming class. Appointments will be made with that objective in mind - no different than the percentage goal for the admission of women."

They seem proud of the diversity but are oddly unwilling to claim that they are achieving it by leaving more qualified candidates in the dust.

2. Do not insult our intelligence that concessions are not being made in order to get the "diversity" they are looking for from these "underrepresented congressional districts".

3. The profile release makes the following statistically misleading claims for the Class of 2013.

• Hispanics average top 5% scores for all college
bound Hispanic students.
•African Americans average top 6% for all college
bound African American students.
•Caucasians average top 11% for all college bound
Caucasian students.​

Why not tell us where the Hispanic candidates rank amongst all college bound students, not "college bound Hispanic students"?

Why not tell us where the African American students rank amongst all college bound students, not "college bound African American students"?

I'll even levy the same criticism for their description of Caucasian students.

Why are they comparing them to themselves instead of the general college-bound population, irrespective of race?

That's the only way you can demonstrate that you are truly picking the best candidates in the nation.

I'm not against diversity. I think it's great. But don't insult our intelligence about HOW it is being achieved. If the Navy thinks that by setting this as their "#1 priority" it will end the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq sooner - great!

Congratulations to the Class of 2014 for being the most diverse class in Naval Academy history. If ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, FOX, the local networks, the Baltimore Sun, the Washington Post, and The Capital (Annapolis) won't say it - then I'll say it.

 

[MIHOSER]

So, do you think a highly qualified, non-minority candidate from an "underrepresented congressional district" has the same chance of admission, based on merit, as a minority candidate from that same "underrepresented congressional district"?

We live in a suburb of Detroit that is attached to a large city congressional district that is probably 90+% minority, yet my non-minority son was given a nomination. Why? I have no idea. He did have an LOA with top level grades and test scores.

 

[aglages]

He did have an LOA with top level grades and test scores.

His "top level grades and test scores" had a lot to do with getting a LOA, which in turn probably helped him get a nomination. Congrats to you and your son. Sounds as though he was well qualified for the USNA.

 

[Mongo]

So, do you think a highly qualified, non-minority candidate from an "underrepresented congressional district" has the same chance of admission, based on merit, as a minority candidate from that same "underrepresented congressional district"?

Absolutely. Just as MIHOSER has pointed out. The MOC can pick his primary candidate and thusly, the Academy has no choice so long as he is qualified. If the MOC allows the Academy to select, they are legally bound to select the most qualified. Do you really expect that a MOC would continue to allow the Academy to pick if he felt that they had other motives than selection of the best candidate? Both a trusting respectful relationship and a built in check and balance.

2. Do not insult our intelligence that concessions are not being made in order to get the "diversity" they are looking for from these "underrepresented congressional districts".

So for the last 150 years, where is the hue and cry and the insult to our intelligence when they made the same concessions for the white male candidate in a less competitive district. CGO will make every effort to fill each MOC's slate. I have seen candidates (white male) initially disqualified, have their records reopened and go before the board a second time when it is discovered that they are the only one in the district with a chance of filling the slate. Sometimes the results are positive, and sometimes negative. But they do make an effort. Always have. Always will. Probably more of us graduates than are willing to admit were qualified under this caveat.

 

[Memphis9489]

We live in a suburb of Detroit that is attached to a large city congressional district that is probably 90+% minority, yet my non-minority son was given a nomination. Why? I have no idea. He did have an LOA with top level grades and test scores.

I think that the fact that he got an LOA says it all. Your son was SUPER qualified. That's hard to ignore no matter what the agenda happens to be. Besides, I'm guessing, they have to have people like your son to bring the class average up.

Congratulations!

 

[Memphis9489]

Just as MIHOSER has pointed out. The MOC can pick his primary candidate and thusly, the Academy has no choice so long as he is qualified. If the MOC allows the Academy to select, they are legally bound to select the most qualified. Do you really expect that a MOC would continue to allow the Academy to pick if he felt that they had other motives than selection of the best candidate? Both a trusting respectful relationship and a built in check and balance.

The academy prefers that the MOC not rank the nominees and particularly prefers them not to select a "primary nominee." They much prefer that ten, unranked, nominees be submitted for each vacancy.

From what I understand, (a BGO can correct me), the majority of MOCs do not designate a "primary candidate."

In any case, a substantial number of the appointments still come from the pool of non-primary candidates.

Besides, who the MOC thinks is the best candidate from amongst the applicants may differ from who the academy thinks is the best. If we agree that ACT/SAT/grades are not the only criteria (and it shouldn't be), then we must agree that the "best" can be a rather subjective determination because the other attributes are not so easy to quantify.

 

[Mongo]

The academy prefers that the MOC not rank the nominees and particularly prefers them not to select a "primary nominee." They much prefer that ten, unranked, nominees be submitted for each vacancy.

Yes

From what I understand, (a BGO can correct me), the majority of MOCs do not designate a "primary candidate."

They do not. Around 70% submit a competitive list.

In any case, a substantial number of the appointments still come from the pool of non-primary candidates.

As they always have. The INCREASE comes from the underrepresented districts.

Besides, who the MOC thinks is the best candidate from amongst the applicants may differ from who the academy thinks is the best. If we agree that ACT/SAT/grades are not the only criteria (and it shouldn't be), then we must agree that the "best" can be a rather subjective determination because the other attributes are not so easy to quantify.

It is called the whole person multiplier and is very objective. EVERYTHING is quantifiable. If anyone outside of the CGO ever got a WPM breakdown, I bet it would be a disgruntled MOC.

 

[Luigi59]

Absolutely. Just as MIHOSER has pointed out. The MOC can pick his primary candidate and thusly, the Academy has no choice so long as he is qualified.

The term for such a nominee is "principal" not "primary."

http://www.usna.edu/Admissions/stnomussen.htm

 

[Memphis9489]

It is called the whole person multiplier and is very objective. EVERYTHING is quantifiable. If anyone outside of the CGO ever got a WPM breakdown, I bet it would be a disgruntled MOC.

You can TRY to quantify things that do not lend themselves to that kind of analysis.

For instance, I'm assuming a candidate gets "points" for being a member of a Varsity sports team. What about small high schools were virtually EVERYBODY who tries out for a team MAKES the team - as opposed to a highly-competitive program where they actually have to cut players?

I assume you get points for being the "Class President" of a class that has 68 total students the same as if you were the class president of a class of 1250.

Also, some of the "activities" that these students list are marginal, at best. Maybe they attended one or two meetings of the "Latin Club". Nonetheless, they list it as one of their activities. How can you differentiate the more active students from the tokenly active students? How do you quantify that?

When somebody says they were the club president ... how do you know that they were not a horrible president and actually did quite a poor job? There is no way of knowing that. They get points for being the club president, nonetheless. To me, that is subjective and presumptive.

 

[MIDNDAD]

Thought I'd throw my 2 cents into this discussion

Had a chance to speak at length with my mid and here are some observations from the front lines so to speak:

The minority issue: Is way overblown. The minority talent pool in 2014 is deep and the overall quality is high. Yes there are a few that were admitted that should not be there but the numbers are quite small and most of them will bilge out due to academics or honor violations prior to graduation. My Mid had the following to say: Tell the parents to "get over it" as Midshipman we have accepted this for what it is and have moved on.

2014 is a very smart class with a lot of good kids, on paper. They showed up with the latest I Phones, laptops and communications devices mommy and daddy could provide. They had all this taken away on I Day. My mid was shocked on how badly a lot of 2014 is struggling with basic analog human communication skills and common sense. Once the electronic toys were taken away weakness in character and a lack of any mental toughness were exposed, to a level that my mid calls appalling and described as "generational". That was quite a statement from someone only 3 years older than most plebes. 2014 will require more and longer training than any of the previous classes to compensate.

Tango Company - Tango opens up Saturday and will be busy this year and expect a more traditional dropout rate than compared to the past few years. Each company has at least 2-3 plebes who are set to go Tango. These are not plebes just missing mommy and daddy but plebes that have serious issues and just "want the hell out."

The ROE for the detailers is very specific as to what they can and can't do to plebes and to the current detailers this is not Plebe Summer but "Camp Tecumseh". If today's detailers could operate under the same ROE as when they were plebes in 2007 the plebe summer dropout rate would be in the 8-10% range. 2014 is a smart class but lacks mental toughness to survive when the going gets tough.

 

[falconchic88]

Midndad, sorry, but don't really agree with your generalization that 2014 "lacks mental toughness to survive when the going gets tough" Seriously, I've been thru an Academy, and every cadre or detailer has the same story to tell about how weak the incoming class is. I think your mid is just continuing that tradition. I think it is waaay to soon to start criticizing the class of 2014.

 

[MakeItHappen]

Had a chance to speak at length with my mid and here are some observations from the front lines so to speak:

Thanks for the info. Look forward to more "front line" reports.

Always great to get a Mid's perspective.

 

[DevilDog]

Midndad, sorry, but don't really agree with your generalization that 2014 "lacks mental toughness to survive when the going gets tough" Seriously, I've been thru an Academy, and every cadre or detailer has the same story to tell about how weak the incoming class is. I think your mid is just continuing that tradition. I think it is waaay to soon to start criticizing the class of 2014.

i could not agree with you more. They have been there a few days and some mid has made a generazlization about this group of kids. My son has a friend that is going thru Plebe Summer right now, I would follow that kid in to any war. The kid is tough as nails and has his eye on USMC. As a USMC Vet, I know that kid will be a great leader.
Sorry, you can probably make that generalization every year.

 

[Mongo]

You can TRY to quantify things that do not lend themselves to that kind of analysis.

For instance, I'm assuming a candidate gets "points" for being a member of a Varsity sports team. What about small high schools were virtually EVERYBODY who tries out for a team MAKES the team - as opposed to a highly-competitive program where they actually have to cut players?

I assume you get points for being the "Class President" of a class that has 68 total students the same as if you were the class president of a class of 1250.

Also, some of the "activities" that these students list are marginal, at best. Maybe they attended one or two meetings of the "Latin Club". Nonetheless, they list it as one of their activities. How can you differentiate the more active students from the tokenly active students? How do you quantify that?

When somebody says they were the club president ... how do you know that they were not a horrible president and actually did quite a poor job? There is no way of knowing that. They get points for being the club president, nonetheless. To me, that is subjective and presumptive.

Very objective. They have been doing it for years. One's entire life's accomplishments reduced to a five digit number. It is so objective that it is accomplished by clerical help.

Yes, all your above examples receive exactly the same number of points.

The only subjective part of the process is the Board review where out of the ordinary or unique items are evaluated and RABs are added to the WPM.

 

[Mongo]

Midndad, sorry, but don't really agree with your generalization that 2014 "lacks mental toughness to survive when the going gets tough" Seriously, I've been thru an Academy, and every cadre or detailer has the same story to tell about how weak the incoming class is. I think your mid is just continuing that tradition. I think it is waaay to soon to start criticizing the class of 2014.

Saw MIDNDAD's post and walked around all afternoon biting my tongue which was firmly embedded in my cheek. If one were to poll all graduates still alive of all three academies, every single one would reply convincingly that their class had the last real plebe year. Yep, the tradition continues.

 

[stingre]

"all three academies"

Saw MIDNDAD's post and walked around all afternoon biting my tongue which was firmly embedded in my cheek. If one were to poll all graduates still alive of all three academies, every single one would reply convincingly that their class had the last real plebe year. Yep, the tradition continues.

I thought there were five academies....way to dis USCGA and USMMA (where my son is a proud plebe candidate).

 

[MIDNDAD]

i could not agree with you more. They have been there a few days and some mid has made a generazlization about this group of kids. My son has a friend that is going thru Plebe Summer right now, I would follow that kid in to any war. The kid is tough as nails and has his eye on USMC. As a USMC Vet, I know that kid will be a great leader.
Sorry, you can probably make that generalization every year.

Of course I am generalizing and there is a certain amount of truth in the usual statement that" my class had the last real plebe summer". I know my mid and what I was attempeting to explain is that the detailers are sensing something different in this class than they have previously seen. Todays 18 year old lives in a virtual world of texting, tweeting, streaming video, etc. You take that virtual world away and a lot of 2014 is struggleing in suddenly haveing to live 100% in an analog world. The lack verbal communications skills and an off the charts sense of entitlement is different and noticeable.

 

[Luigi59]

I thought there were five academies....way to dis USCGA and USMMA (where my son is a proud plebe candidate).

Congrats to your son on his appointment to KP!

 

[AF6872]

HERNDON

 

[Mongo]

Of course I am generalizing and there is a certain amount of truth in the usual statement that" my class had the last real plebe summer". I know my mid and what I was attempeting to explain is that the detailers are sensing something different in this class than they have previously seen. Todays 18 year old lives in a virtual world of texting, tweeting, streaming video, etc. You take that virtual world away and a lot of 2014 is struggleing in suddenly haveing to live 100% in an analog world. The lack verbal communications skills and an off the charts sense of entitlement is different and noticeable.

Keep in mind that for the past two summers he was forbidden to interact with the plebes at all until they had completed plebe summer. This is his first exposure to the raw recruits.