2016 USNA Mailbox Stalkers Club...

re: lying and cheating

FaithfulDad said:
Our DS just recieved a TWE today--he does not know yet, returning from his Spring Sport meet tonight. Feeling very worried for him, his confidence and life goals. While he has great $$ academic scholarships as Plans B,C and D, plan A died today. After last Summer Seminar, he had fallen in love with USNA. His stats were apparently model of "whole person" concept: ACT Math 32, ACT English 34, /sat 650 math, 670 reading, 670 writing. "triple Qualified" 7 Varsity Letters, twice Team Captain, MVP of school team, Qualified and competed at State Finals twice already [State finished: Top 32 in Tennis, Top 37 in Cross Country], NHS, Wrote for Newspaper, President of 2 Clubs, officer in JROTC. And his leadership, values and Integrity exactly matching best of best. TWE says no option for NAPS. While still in running for USAFA [2 nominations for there, too], starting to doubt putting a young person through this process. We are not whimpy parents, just wondering why SA do not check accuracy of other Candidates. One unliked kid at same HS got Appoinment, brags about his cheating/lie on USNA application: kid got in but lied, never was team captain or club Pres. Honor Code? For our DS,April 5 a long time to put life on hold to watch liers get in. Yes, imperfect, but 1st year Blue Gold [non alum] not bother to verify basics! Hope good kids get in!
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This has been interrupting my sleep for several days. I'm a long time reader, but haven't posted since others usually have all the answers.

This time though, I have some serious concerns, having recently been through the SA application process as a parent. Lying and cheating blatantly on an application is a serious thing. I would think it would be worth a shot to talk to the principal and discuss what this student has been heard bragging about. Even better if you can find someone specifically who overheard the brag. Also, let the principal know about the role of the counselor in the application process and see if the principal might also bring in the counselor for discussion . Possibly the principal can call this student in for a talk.

One of the ways that criminals, in the real world, get caught is that they brag openly about their exploits. This student, if he is indeed guilty as it seems, should learn this lesson sooner than later. Though I agree that this student probably won't make it in an academy honor situation, if things can be addressed at the high school level, then why not see what the principal thinks? Maybe this kid can learn about the honor code now before he's the academy's problem.
 
IMHO, it isn't the role of another parent/candidate to question/challenge another candidates Admissions decision.

(1) While he/she might brag, you don't know what was actually reported on the application.
(2) Information shouldn't/can't be released because of the Privacy Act.
(3) You might not have the full story of what is going on.

If you were to ask a school official, BGO, or USNA about the validity of a candidate, you could possibly be putting your own reputation at risk, especially if you are incorrect. I'd consider treading this ground VERY CAREFULLY.
 
Thanks

jadler03 said:
IMHO, it isn't the role of another parent/candidate to question/challenge another candidates Admissions decision.

(1) While he/she might brag, you don't know what was actually reported on the application.
(2) Information shouldn't/can't be released because of the Privacy Act.
(3) You might not have the full story of what is going on.

If you were to ask a school official, BGO, or USNA about the validity of a candidate, you could possibly be putting your own reputation at risk, especially if you are incorrect. I'd consider treading this ground VERY CAREFULLY.
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Great advise for all to be mindful of.
Thank You...
 
re: lying and cheating

jadler03 said:
IMHO, it isn't the role of another parent/candidate to question/challenge another candidates Admissions decision.

(1) While he/she might brag, you don't know what was actually reported on the application.
(2) Information shouldn't/can't be released because of the Privacy Act.
(3) You might not have the full story of what is going on.

If you were to ask a school official, BGO, or USNA about the validity of a candidate, you could possibly be putting your own reputation at risk, especially if you are incorrect. I'd consider treading this ground VERY CAREFULLY.
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Of course we don't know the whole story. Involving the BGO, USNA would not be in the realm of the High School, nor the concerned parent. However, possibly *discussing* the issue with the principal and making him/her aware of what has been heard around school, I don't think is off base. Especially if anyone else can verify that they have heard the same brags about lying. Most likely the principal would not do anything, but the concerned parent would at least get to talk with the principal about their concerns. Keeping concerns at the high school level so that maybe the next cycle of the high school's service academy candidates would be handled more carefully by the school's guidance counselors and staff. A good principal would be able to discern what might need to be done at his/her school's level, if anything.
 
Drydock- I share your pain. DS received TWE from AFA and USNA in the last week. He too has two classmates, one appointed to WP and one to AFA who were both accused of being involved in a cheating scandal in their AP Literature class in the last fmonth. The teacher addressed it and basically brushed it off in these 2 students case saying they have "too much to lose to make it an issue". Other students involved were given an letter of academic dishonesty in their file. I am aware of the inside scoop regarding this because I volunteer in the front office and filed the reports. According to my DS, the WP appointee is known to be a cheater and has sold his answers for money on tests over the past 4 years. Even went as far as to lie about sports and activities involved in as made evident in the local paper's article about his appointment. VERY FRUSTRATING especially given my DS situation. I explained that "once a cheater, always a cheater" and the academies will have zero tolerance for it. But to a disappointed 17 year old who was very competitive for an appointment (3Q, 2 noms, 4.0, 4 year elected class officer, 3 varsity sports... SO ON)it is hard to except and he too is bitter!

Like you, I considered addressing the cheating issue with my sons school administration but decided against it. It would not change the situation for my son and possible could cause a problem for him it it came out at school. Instead my DS and I just chuckle and say "good luck to them both" cause they are going to need it at the academy!

Thankfully my son has NROTC and AFROTC scholarships to comfort him but I completely understand your frustration Drydock! This is such a competitive, time consuming process and it is heartbreaking when people cheat the system taking away opportunities from those who have integrity!
 
drydock/crair70,

I do appreciate bringing these issues to light. I would have thought (and hoped) it would be a less of occurrence, but it sounds like that isn't the case.

If I have the opportunity to provide feedback on part of the application process, I will do so. I am not sure if the school official (who approves of the candidate's activity record) instructions might not to be modified, clarified, or have extra attention brought to it.
 
Crair70,

Sorry to hear about AFA, but am glad that your son has great options.

Remember, living well is the best "revenge". Tell him to tear it up wherever he winds up, and never look back.
 
Thank you candidad! I shared your post with my Ds and got a huge smile which was the first in a while!

Jadler03- I sat on this tread debating if I should add my comments because the last thing I wanted was to come off as a paret with sour grapes. But with SA becoming even more competitve now then ever I thought it was something worth sharing so that maybe for future classes it may be addressed in the process somehow.


Just one more thought... My I just asked my son if he would consider reapplying next year. Thought his response was worth sharing for those of you like him who have ROTC scholarships and recieved twe- he said " mom, that would be like having two different ways to get home; one which will take 15 mins and one which takes 10 mins and is more scenic. Why would I chose the longer way home and reapply and lose a year taking me that much longer to go to the same place?" Thought that was a wise way of looking at his situation!
 
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For my application to USMA, I had to have all of my stats corroborated by my principal, coach, counselor and leaders of outside activities in order for my "CAR" (candidate activities record) to be checked off. They do this in order to prevent "cheating" or "lying" on an application. So I find it hard to believe that what this kid at school, might be, saying has any validity to it at all. If he truly was lying on his application, it would seem like there would be a lot of loopholes that he went through to even finish his application in the first place.
 
crair70 said:
Drydock- I share your pain. DS received TWE from AFA and USNA in the last week. He too has two classmates, one appointed to WP and one to AFA who were both accused of being involved in a cheating scandal in their AP Literature class in the last fmonth. The teacher addressed it and basically brushed it off in these 2 students case saying they have "too much to lose to make it an issue". Other students involved were given an letter of academic dishonesty in their file. I am aware of the inside scoop regarding this because I volunteer in the front office and filed the reports. According to my DS, the WP appointee is known to be a cheater and has sold his answers for money on tests over the past 4 years. Even went as far as to lie about sports and activities involved in as made evident in the local paper's article about his appointment. VERY FRUSTRATING especially given my DS situation. I explained that "once a cheater, always a cheater" and the academies will have zero tolerance for it. But to a disappointed 17 year old who was very competitive for an appointment (3Q, 2 noms, 4.0, 4 year elected class officer, 3 varsity sports... SO ON)it is hard to except and he too is bitter!

Like you, I considered addressing the cheating issue with my sons school administration but decided against it. It would not change the situation for my son and possible could cause a problem for him it it came out at school. Instead my DS and I just chuckle and say "good luck to them both" cause they are going to need it at the academy!

Thankfully my son has NROTC and AFROTC scholarships to comfort him but I completely understand your frustration Drydock! This is such a competitive, time consuming process and it is heartbreaking when people cheat the system taking away opportunities from those who have integrity!
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I can't fathom how and why these HS candidates would blatantly lie on their applications. Nor how the cheater who was selling test answers for money got as far as he did. You mention above the local paper's article about such a candidate's appointment, published with details about the false resume; there for all and sundry to see. Evidently such a candidate doesn't care that their classmates and neighbors will surely know the truth behind their fabricated list of accomplishments.


The lying and cheating situation I was commenting on wasn't my issue, though it seems the original poster [FaithfulDad post#140] has moved on. However, their story hit a little close to home, as like you, I have seen some similar situations in HS where some kids get punished, and others don't for various infractions. I do know, and hope, that our current principal, if made aware of misconduct, would do his best to remedy the situation in an honorable manner. But some principals would not, unfortunately.

Knowing about such shenanigans of some candidates who blatantly lie and cheat isn't sour grapes at all, but addressing reality...... eyes wide open.

It sounds like your son has the integrity and honor that will serve him, and our country, well with his ROTC options. I'm sure it will be a relief to leave the petty antics of high school behind and move on to bigger and better things. Not that these things don't happen out in life beyond high school. Your DS looking forward is just the start in the making of an already wise young man.
 
I confirmed with my wife and as I suspected the Guidance Counselor receives the electronic copy of the form that a candidate completes. It is then their responsibility to confirm the activities/clubs that the candidate has taken part in during high school. If the counselor confirms falsehoods that is against the state teaching Code of Conduct and could result in loss of state certification. The Guidance department can only go so far as to confirm those activities/sports/letters that are earned in high school, though for National Honor Society outside activities must be signed off by the agency where the volunteer hours were earned (NHS has VERY strict rules and regs for its society and for legal purposes these records must be held for a period of at least 5 years by the school). In this day and age I do not believe that any teacher or guidance counselor would risk losing their certification for falsifying a college application document (or at least I would hope not!).
 
I am unclear than how a guidance counselor would confirm a non school activity. For example my son coaches a special needs baseball team. This is through Access Sports -not through the High School. How does that get confirmed?
 
At my wife's high school, students must bring in a verification sheet that is used for both EC's and NHS. Maybe they are one of the few in the USA who goes to such lengths :confused:
It is a good idea for the candidate to bring in proof to the Guidance counselor, but now a days I think they are wearing too many hats :cool:
 
USNA1982BGO said:
At my wife's high school, students must bring in a verification sheet that is used for both EC's and NHS. Maybe they are one of the few in the USA who goes to such lengths :confused:
It is a good idea for the candidate to bring in proof to the Guidance counselor, but now a days I think they are wearing too many hats :cool:
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Many guidance counselors are spread too thin. The school EC's may have been checked, the non-school EC's were taken at applicants word. Some applications require a letter of recommendation from the counselor. Counselor asks students to submit a draft to them as they don't know any of the students well enough to write a letter of rec. If an applicant chose too lie, I think they may get away with it. Maybe I am naieve but I think the vast majority of applicants are honest in what they submit.
 
I confirmed with my wife and as I suspected the Guidance Counselor receives the electronic copy of the form that a candidate completes. It is then their responsibility to confirm the activities/clubs that the candidate has taken part in during high school.
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If the counselor confirms falsehoods that is against the state teaching Code of Conduct and could result in loss of state certification. The Guidance department can only go so far as to confirm those activities/sports/letters that are earned in high school
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I think this exactly why the instructions might need to be clarified/embellished and/or when approving the document, the words or something to that affect say, "I have confirmed that the candidate has participated in all of the activities included in this document and at to the level specified."

I am sure they can site some Federal Ethics Code in the instructions (as implied by the quote above), etc.
 
Honor/integrity - SA application

USNA1982BGO said:
I confirmed with my wife and as I suspected the Guidance Counselor receives the electronic copy of the form that a candidate completes. It is then their responsibility to confirm the activities/clubs that the candidate has taken part in during high school. If the counselor confirms falsehoods that is against the state teaching Code of Conduct and could result in loss of state certification. The Guidance department can only go so far as to confirm those activities/sports/letters that are earned in high school.
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A few observations:
1. Integrity and honor have to be at the foundation of the SA application process. It does not bode well for any candidate that cheats to get in. As a former SA faculty member, I once had to turn a cadet in for cheating. After he was shown the exit door, I wondered if his success in high school (class valedictorian) was related to his cheating history. More importantly, the cadet’s slot at the SA could have been used by an honorable candidate.

2. When I observed my son's SA applications last year, I seem to recall a warning on each SA website that any candidate submitting a false claim would be subject to having the application withdrawn and/or removal from the SA after the fraud was discovered/confirmed.

3. Since most of the SAs require an interview of some sort, the BGO (or equivalent at other SAs) can play a significant role in determining if something in the candidate’s application doesn’t seem to “add-up”.

4. The SA application process does seem to have the potential for a fatal flaw if either the counselor or candidate demonstrate a lack of integrity. It is hard enough for a counselor to verify everything that takes place within the high school. Certifying non-school related activities comes at the expense of time spent on all other student college applications. Since a typical SA applicant probably has an extensive list of activities, it would take a huge time investment to verify everything. Given the total number of student college applications for which the typical counselor is responsible, the counselor can’t drop the other 99% in order to verify everything on the application for the 1%. Obviously, some counselors do more to verify facts than others; however, until someone comes up with a better system, we have to accept the role of the high school counselor.

5. I like the idea of doing something to remind the counselors of their role in the process and the need for total integrity in their activity certifications.

6. The SA application process is long and tends to discourage those that are not seriously interested in a career of service. Those that are not truly committed to serving their country as an officer seem to drop off the path leading to an appointment.
 
First of all, I agree that there is some level of integrity involved in the process. It's no different from submitting resumes for jobs later in life. Some people embellish (take full credit for something in which they had only a tangential part) and some outright lie (claiming they graduated from a school or held a job when the facts are wrong).

There is only so much fact-checking that any college can do, whether it be USNA or Harvard or UCLA or . . . And, let's face it, high school officials often have thousands of students applying to 1-10 or more colleges each. They aren't cops.

Also note that, while activities certainly are important, your grades and scores and teacher recs are more important and a student can't do much, if anything, to falsify or embellish those.

3. Since most of the SAs require an interview of some sort, the BGO (or equivalent at other SAs) can play a significant role in determining if something in the candidate’s application doesn’t seem to “add-up”.
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The only flaw in that logic is that BGOs don't see a candidate's application (privacy reasons). Thus, we have no idea what a candidate has told USNA about his/her activities. So, no way to verify anything. Also, as I've stated before, that is not the role of the BGO. Now, if we say the kid has never played sports and he told USNA he was a varsity athlete, MAYBE USNA would catch the discrepancy and look into it. But I can't say that's true and, quite honestly, the BGO might never know if USNA did investigate.
 
Mail Box Stalking

I agree that there should be a definitive way to catch cheating and lying, as it is obvious that this hurts all honest applicants. It is a shame because my son had a similar issue in his junior year. His teacher caught the valedicorian and the salutatorian cheating on a test in AP Biology. My son is number three in his class behind the two caught cheating. They received zeros on that test and was suspended for 3 days. My son is completely honest and would never cheat and this actually made him angry. This is the pet peave he brought up in his interview with his BGO.

Off this track, have TWE's been mailed out already? We have yet to receive any notice,
not that I am looking for a TWE. Are any appointments still being made? People on the forum have talked about contacting the Regional Addmissions person to find out their status.
Is this an option and how do we find out who that person would be? I would just like to find out something so we can move forward. We are moving strongly toward plan B. Just hoping for a last minute miracle.
 
Falcon74 said:
5. I like the idea of doing something to remind the counselors of their role in the process and the need for total integrity in their activity certifications.
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I don't know what the student to counselor ratio is at most schools but at my kids school one counselor is responsible for 500 kids. A lot of years ago I recall in my school of 800 we had two counselors. With that kind of ratio they are limited as to what they can do.
 
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