2nd Thoughts

I went back and re-read OP's post. I guess I understand why some who did not get in (or the parent of a TWE recipient) would be bitter that someone who is not a "true believer" did get in.

At least OP was honest and I respect that. My advice was for OP not to go and I stand by that. If he does go, I won't be angry. The situation will work itself out one way or another. West Point knows this. They plan for it.

There will be more than a few in the group that shows up on R-day who are there for reasons that, to them, rank much higher than love of country and desire to serve. To pretend otherwise is naive.

Taking out your frustrations on OP is not going to help you get in next year or otherwise move forward with a military career. You're just wasting time and energy.
 
As a West Point graduate, Math Professor for 4 years, Field Force Admissions person for 10 years, plus I have a son (Class of 2015) entering his last year, I have seen and worked with many, many young people going to West Point over the decades.

No person can exactly predict who will be the 20% of the class that does not make it to the end. The year my son entered WP, two other successful candidates from his Congressional District indicated to me that their "life plan" was similar to yours. Neither of them lasted a year.

I sincerely wish you the best but- I predict that you will not make it past Plebe year.

I had several great (unsuccessful) candidates in the two Congressional Districts I cover this year. They were highly motivated and highly qualified. They will not get the opportunity to be a Cadet. I hope we have not wasted a slot on you.
 
From the very bottom of my heart, please do not come. While love of country wasn't the sole reason I decided to attend USMA, it was most definitely a factor. I really don't want to have a battle buddy that's there for the wrong reasons.

You seem like a driven guy that will be successful in a lot of places, but WP does not seem like quite the right fit based on everything you have posted.

Best of luck.
 
It pisses me off that you're using USMA is a spring board to "make paper." That's not right. How selfish.

I have plenty of enlisted friends and family in the service and it scares me that there might be officers and cadets like you who don't live for them.

There are many ‘Positivity’-types at all the service academies who are not living for the troops they will someday serve. You may find that scary, but it is true.

Mr. Positivity – If you are so sure of your plan to make millions and don’t feel the need for someone to employ you someday, why are you even spending time going to college? Start your ‘branding’ and making your millions now if you’re so smart!

And I would love to see your essay or a transcript of your admissions interview. Seriously, what angle did you use to get in?
 
Why I want to attend:
It is an extremely prestigious school
I believe that it will allow me to grow very much as a person
It will give me hands-on management and leadership experience
It will give me creditability so that building my brand afterwards is easier.
I can't help but notice that you did not include "wanting to be an Army officer" in that list. I firmly believe that one should attend West Point because some part of them wants to be an Army officer. Sure there may be other motivators alongside it, but at the end of the day Army officership should be the goal you're chasing. If that isn't one of the goals, then I can assure you there are better places to achieve any of the additional goals you might have in going.

Why I am having second thoughts:
although it will be a great "resume-booster," I do not plan to work for anyone after college & 5-yr. commitment so I feel that it is unneeded in regards to landing me a "sweet job."

Although I feel that serving as an officer will be a great experience for me as a person, and that I will be able to positively impact my subordinates, I do not have a desire to serve for the reasons of "promoting liberty and freedom" (here comes the whup@$$)

I feel like i'm giving the military the years of my prime. I am a re-applicant and will be done with my commitment at 28

The time I am in I could be building my brand and working for myself
My advice to you as a recent grad? Do not go. West Point is the best place to become an Army officer but that's it. If you're not there for Army officership there are better places to achieve whatever it is you're trying to achieve (although those other places might require a bit more work). Do you aspire to academic excellence? There are institutions with far better academic programs in many fields that will put you ahead in those fields. Do you aspire to develop your character meaningfully? While I cannot, off the top of my head, recommend better character development programs, character development at West Point is a joke.

If you want to be an officer in the US Army, West Point will prepare you very well for that job. I'm certain that such preparation would probably also benefit you in other fields. However, if your goal is to be the best at something, and that something is not Army officership, I am confident that there is some place better you can go to achieve that than West Point. West Point is a mediocrity machine for other fields because its goal is to produce Army officers. With that will come lots of positive development in areas such as planning, which is valuable wherever you go, but planning, and many other skills you learn in preparing to be an officer, can be learned in other places as well. If you want to be anything more than mediocre in some field that is not Army officership, then going to West Point would be absolutely detrimental for your future goals.

That's about all I have to say on the matter.
 
Being an officer in the armed forces of the United States is more of a "calling" than a "personal growth" opportunity. If you are not going into it with a desire for "selfless service" you will fail... and when you fail, you fail not only yourself, but your troops too... and that's unforgiveable.

Your heart is telling you something. Listen to it.
 
. . West Point is a mediocrity machine for other fields because its goal is to produce Army officers. . .

As an old grad, I respectfully disagree. I believe West Point's Engineering program is consistently rank pretty high in most undergraduate engineering rankings. Probably, West Point has one of the best military history program, again for the undergraduate program. My perspective, an undergraduate degree should be seen it as what it is, a foundational degree. West Point is not best in many areas as an undergraduate institution as it focuses on producing well rounded graduates. West Point's English department is not competing against another college's English department to publish more paper or send more students to Masters or PhD programs.

Yes, there is no doubt that the goal of West Point is to produce Army officers. However, that is not the only goal. If so we don't need West Point as ROTC and OCS can produce quality Army officers just like West Point. I think West Point is special because it produces more than Army officers. It produces future leaders of our country. Typically, 50% of a class leave the active duty when their service obligation is over. If so, West Point is not working as we are spending more than ROTC/OCS to produce Army officers, but more than 50% leave after 5 years. But their service to our country doesn't end there. I would say most, if not all, members of the Long Gray Line will acknowledge that West Point and Army experience contribute to their successes.
 
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Sure there may be other motivators alongside it, but at the end of the day Army officership should be the goal you're chasing.

One more thing, wait until your 10 year reunion to see who is still in and who is still out. People change. Many things in life are not absolute. By the way, if you just graduated, congratulations. Some of my classmates I thought that will be lifers are out and some of my classmates I thought they will be five and fly are still in.
 
Heres a bet

I'll bet a diet coke that you'll be so miserable the first year and probably the second that you leave. There is so much nit-noid, irritating, why do we have to do this stuff that you really need to want to be there to not be 100% miserable. My DS is now a Firstie and has life pretty good relatively speaking. I think he still says he wouldn't say he likes it but he certainly would never have considered going someplace else or quitting. Our motto at Buckner and later Ranger school was "Too dumb to quit" If you have an out or ulterior motives it makes gutting out the real suck parts even harder. Now that being said, as others have noted, I have classmates who one would never imagine who made General and others who were grey to their core who got out at their first chance.
 
I don't buy the who "you're using someone else's spot" argument. That "someone else" could have done something to make that his or her spot.... but didn't. Or someone was just better. It's not fun, but that's life.

What we can be sure of is, that first summer and the following four years keep you pretty honest if you're heading in the direction you want to head or not. Current cadets/midshipmen and alumni all can provide a long list of classmates who realized the service academy path was not the right one for them, and they left. We thought no less of them.

Positivity, if you want to go to West Point, you've worked hard enough to have that decision. That's your decision to make.

If at the end of the day, it's not the path you want to take, West Point (and any service academy) will help you figure that out, quickly or gradually. At some point you have to fully answer that question "Is this what I want?" The answer isn't the same for everyone, and for many it changes from that first day of reporting in.
 
reapplicant/football

Honestly, the military stuff sounds fun; beast sounds fun; I will learn a lot; I will get to play football. I again find myself at the fork in the road. QUOTE]

Someone mentioned earlier that you were a reapplicant. I am impressed that you were able to maintain/garner the football program's interest in recruiting you while having the year away. Did you play football this past year?

Is it common for the football team to have recruits self prep vs prep school?
 
As an old grad, I respectfully disagree. I believe West Point's Engineering program is consistently rank pretty high in most undergraduate engineering rankings.

Probably, West Point has one of the best military history program, again for the undergraduate program. My perspective, an undergraduate degree should be seen it as what it is, a foundational degree. West Point is not best in many areas as an undergraduate institution as it focuses on producing well rounded graduates. West Point's English department is not competing against another college's English department to publish more paper or send more students to Masters or PhD programs.

My point was simply if you want to be the best in some field that is not Army officership, there is some place you can go that will most likely be better for it. We focus on producing well-rounded graduates. Well-rounded, as in a jack of all trades but master of none. If one wishes to be a master in some field, West Point is not the place to become such a master. This candidate clearly has some goal that he wishes to, and probably should, pursue vigorously. West Point isn't even on the same azimuth as his goal. So why should he waste his time?

Will he learn useful skills? Sure he will. If one learns to cook one has learned a useful skill, but learning to cook isn't going to make you the best football player in the world. If your goal is to be the world's best football player, why waste four years learning to cook? Because it's useful and will make you more well-rounded? Sure, but then you're four years behind your competition who spent their time learning to be better football players.

Yes, there is no doubt that the goal of West Point is to produce Army officers. However, that is not the only goal. If so we don't need West Point as ROTC and OCS can produce quality Army officers just like West Point. I think West Point is special because it produces more than Army officers. It produces future leaders of our country. Typically, 50% of a class leave the active duty when their service obligation is over. If so, West Point is not working as we are spending more than ROTC/OCS to produce Army officers, but more than 50% leave after 5 years. But their service to our country doesn't end there. I would say most, if not all, members of the Long Gray Line will acknowledge that West Point and Army experience contribute to their successes.

I acknowledge that I am most likely speaking naively when I say this, but I would argue that West Point has not produced the caliber of graduate that can outshine his ROTC/OCS peers in such a way as to warrant the distinction in cost per graduate, between the various commissioning sources, for quite some time. One would think there would be a noticeable difference between a graduate who went through ROTC and a graduate who went through a program costing more than twice what was spent on his ROTC counterpart. I think going to West Point positions you where you have easier access to success. It doesn't necessarily make the individual any better, it just puts them higher up on the ladder.

One more thing, wait until your 10 year reunion to see who is still in and who is still out. People change. Many things in life are not absolute.

I'm aware of this, but the advice I have given many and will continue to give is that you should go to/stay at West Point to be an Army officer. I fully believe that if you're not at West Point to be an Army officer your time can be better spent at some other institution. That's not a knock on the Academy just a reality of what it's about.


By the way, if you just graduated, congratulations. Some of my classmates I thought that will be lifers are out and some of my classmates I thought they will be five and fly are still in.

Thank you. I came in believing I'd leave after five, but after having spoken with some other five-and-fly folks who stayed longer than they initially anticipated, perhaps I'll stay in longer. Time will tell.
 
. . but the advice I have given many and will continue to give is that you should go to/stay at West Point to be an Army officer.

So have I. For last 10+ years as field force member working with hundreds of candidates, my #1 emphasis to candidates is becoming an Army officer. However, I realized that nothing is for sure with 17 or 18 years old. These candidates should be given a chance to learn for themselves, if they earned an appointment.

A quick story. A candidate I worked with got a bad eval from his SLE squad leader. I gave him a good eval. The RC talked to the squad leader and me, separately. I told the RC, I could only tell him what I believe, either this kid is a great actor that fool me or he didn't get along with the squad leader. Regardless, if his accomplishments earned him an appointment, he should be given a chance. He got appointed and he is still at West Point. Don't know he is happy or miserable . . .
 
These candidates should be given a chance to learn for themselves, if they earned an appointment.


That's a good point I suppose. If someone is able to get in, regardless of their motivations, they've earned that spot and it's up to them what to do with it.
 
It seems to me as I read many of the posts on this discussion that people are viewing USMA the same as the British Royal Military Academy Sandhurst.

Cadets go to Sandhurst solely to become British Army officers. The training and curriculum is targeted to officer training. They do not receive a University degree from Sandhurst, just a commission.

I am of the understanding that West Point exists to provide a college education AND training to become a U.S. Army officer. Therefore is seems appropriate that candidates/cadets can have multiple motivations for attending, as long as one of them is to become an officer.
 
Cadets go to Sandhurst solely to become British Army officers. The training and curriculum is targeted to officer training. They do not receive a University degree from Sandhurst, just a commission.

I am of the understanding that West Point exists to provide a college education AND training to become a U.S. Army officer. Therefore is seems appropriate that candidates/cadets can have multiple motivations for attending, as long as one of them is to become an officer.

I'd turn that around: West Point exists to produce U.S. Army officers, period. BS degree and BOLC-A are the core requirements, along with a big dose of Cadet Leadership System. And manage that experience to produce the best officers they can. No competing priorities, civvy school doctrine, funding, or curriculum constraints.

So the Bachelor of Science degree is a means to a end, not a reason to exist. Now it happens to be a very well regarded BS, for some very good reasons.

The exit path from USMA is as an Army officer. It's the output. USMA will do what it needs to optimize that output. Ex: They will re-section classes mid-semester and move cadets to a harder section if they are not challenged. With likely negative impact to that cadet's GPA. They are optimizing for needs of the army, not for individual cadet performance.

What everyone is debating is how important for candidates to have serving as an officer as a primary goal? Or as a secondary goal which is a means to a broader end? But USMA reason to exist and goals are very clear. It's not the Sandhurst model.
 
I think candidate should evaluate all the options when they finally get all the offers and see if Military academy is good fit!
 
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