A New Course for the Military

Selective Service Registration is still required for males age eighteen especially if they are applying for any government sponsored education aid. The Draft may be dead but the bodies are out there.
 
Wcyeung123 said:
USMCGrunt said:
The OP cites mandatory national or military service in other countries. Conscription in the United States has been conducted as a draft to augment the military shortfall of volunteers and is not the same thing.
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After talking to friends and my old history professor, there was a program from either WWI or II that offered mandatory service to able-bodied males to fix bridges, national parks, or build national projects for free housing, and decent pay. I think that sparked my interest, I forgot exactly why they stopped, maybe too much spending? Either way I do not think we will see that program until, like others said, as a last resort.
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Just wanted to point out that neither the CCC nor the WPA was mandatory. I don't believe there was ever such a mandatory program in our nations history.
 
Some surprising responses here. I thought most Americans would be a lot more opposed to big government spending, mandatory programs, etc.
 
The CCC and WPA were voluntary but you got meals and a roof over your head. My uncle joined the army in 39 for a job and then got stuck for the duration. We have a great public golf course near here built by WPA and CCC and rated one of the best public courses in the US. I had them mail my undergraduate and masters to me so it would cost them money. Small payback.
 
usafa2022 said:
Some surprising responses here. I thought most Americans would be a lot more opposed to big government spending, mandatory programs, etc.
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Big government spending won 2 world wars, 1 cold war and put a man on the moon and developed the greatest middle class economy the earth had ever seen in the 20th century.

Not too shabby.
 
Over 60% of WW2 servicemen (the Greatest Generation) were conscripts. Over 70% of WW1 servicemen were too. And the huge expenditures of big government were necessary to create the massive armed forces to win those wars. Similarly large numbers were drafted for Korea & Vietnam. Except for a brief period between WW2 and Korea, the US has been on a war footing every year since 1941. The result is the greatest expansion of freedom in human history, though it has been expensive in blood and treasure.

The federal income tax really cam of age in WW1. The largest marginal income tax rate during WW2 was in excess of 90%! You certainly argue that putting a man on the moon would not have happened if Uncle Sam didn't spend whatever it took to put him there. And without the FDIC (making US banks the safest place on earth to put money), SEC (regulating Wall Street to attract investment from all over the planet), GI Bill (free tuition, 100% mortgages, etc.), TVA (electrification of the Tennessee Valley), Social Security, Medicare, farm subsidies, etc. the rising of the Great Middle Class of the 2nd half of the 20th century would have never occurred.
 
Day-Tripper said:
The federal income tax really cam of age in WW1. The largest marginal income tax rate during WW2 was in excess of 90%! You certainly argue that putting a man on the moon would not have happened if Uncle Sam didn't spend whatever it took to put him there. And without the FDIC (making US banks the safest place on earth to put money), SEC (regulating Wall Street to attract investment from all over the planet), GI Bill (free tuition, 100% mortgages, etc.), TVA (electrification of the Tennessee Valley), Social Security, Medicare, farm subsidies, etc. the rising of the Great Middle Class of the 2nd half of the 20th century would have never occurred.
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The New Deal was good in all, for the short term at least, but by far its most lasting effect was changing many Americans' minds about the role their government should play in their lives. Today we take for granted that the things you mentioned (Medicare, Social Security, etc.) are provided at the federal level, but before FDR, those would have been unthinkable. Nobody really wanted DC to play an active role in their communities or especially in their personal lives, financial or otherwise. But after the Depression and WWII, suddenly it was totally fine for these programs to exist. This country was never intended to be run like that, and extending the federal government's reach undermines the original purpose for founding the US in the first place.

We're probably gonna have to agree to disagree on this since it's an ideological thing, but personally, I do not think "big government spending"--and big government influence, by extension--are in out best interest, at least in peacetime. Having a draft, except during a major war, isn't consistent with that.
 
I see everyones view points. It varies on the situation, now would not be a good time for a mandatory military conscription as there seems to be a continuous flux of willing volunteers. But there should be some community service requirement, right? Especially in this time of division between civilian and government.

While I know that there is a continuous threat from foreign countries, our nation and its citizens should be a first priority as well and how they view the government. I brought this up because I had a cousin in Charlotte, NC during the riots because of a police shooting that didn't even finish its investigation. I never really knew how separated, impatient, and ignorant people could be (throwing hazardous things, vandalizing homes and public buildings, attacking police, etc.). Thankfully she was fine and continued working for the DA.

Civil/community service will give people a better understanding that there is a system that is in place and will work itself out. It would give a mutual respect for everyone, no matter what color, race/ethnicity, or gender identity one is. Any thoughts?
 
It's been a long time since JFK said "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." Since then the trend of the general population has been toward reversing that equation, with the notable exception of those who volunteer for the military. While mandatory civil service sounds good in theory, without a change of attitude it would likely only increase the division, mistrust, etc.
 
The New Deal had some good points and plenty of bad points (including a number of actions deemed unconstitutional).

Big government also helped precipitate the Crashes of 1907 and 1929.

In reality, it helps when your country is one of the few not in ashes.

FDR in many ways robbed the future with unsustainable public spending. I'm not sure how we reasonably dig out now.
 
madhttr said:
It's been a long time since JFK said "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." Since then the trend of the general population has been toward reversing that equation, with the notable exception of those who volunteer for the military. While mandatory civil service sounds good in theory, without a change of attitude it would likely only increase the division, mistrust, etc.
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I disagree.

When the US entered WW1 it had not been involved in a large war for more than 50 years, since the Civil War. Since then the US had changed dramatically, from an overwhelmingly rural nation of descendants from the British Isles to an increasingly urban, industrialized one with 1/3 of the population either being an immigrant or offspring of an immigrant. The vast majority of those immigrants had no English language skills upon arrival.

American government officials realized that the draft would be necessary to raise an army large enough to fight the Kaiser's legions, but were deeply fearful that the huge segment of immigrants & first generation citizens would not respond to either draft registration or actually being drafted. They worried about the huge levels of law enforcement manpower that would be needed to enforce a draft. They thought immigrants and African-Americans would resist, perhaps even violently (the experiences of New York City in 1863, when the Irish fought the draft, were well known).

Their fears were misplaced. Those largely eastern & southern immigrant, Catholic, Orthodox & Jewish (Jews were 6% of the US population in 1917, now less than 2%) newcomers to the US actually served in larger percentages than more established Anglo-Saxon heritage US citizens. The recent Americans flocked to the ranks. Some notables include the air ace Eddie Rickenbacker (whom had a very politically incorrect German accent), Italian-born Michael Valente & Dutch-born Ludovicus Van Iersel whom were awarded the Medal of Honor, etc.

Of the 121 Americans who were awarded the Medal of Honor, 13 were foreign-born (most from enemy nations like Germany & Austria-Hungary).

https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/ethnic_minorities_at_war_usa

"The word “pride” cropped up frequently when immigrant soldiers spoke or wrote of their experiences in uniform: pride in serving their adoptive country, pride in acquitting themselves bravely in battle, pride in honoring the traditions and beliefs of their old country while doing their duty for the new. Each soldier was unique, but on balance, the pride of ethnic minorities boosted their status in their own eyes and in the eyes of the adoptive country."

Another WW1 hero, Alvin York, was initially horrified that he had to serve alongside Russian Jews, Poles, Italians, Irishmen, Czechs, etc. whom he regarded as inferior and not really Americans. By the end of the war he'd write that he loved his fellow doughboys more than brothers and would gladly lay down his life to protect his buddies.

A great read:

"The Long Way Home: An American Journey From Ellis Island to the Great War" by David Laskin.

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/lo...d=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP2782&k_clickid=3x2782
 
LineInTheSand said:
The New Deal had some good points and plenty of bad points (including a number of actions deemed unconstitutional).

Big government also helped precipitate the Crashes of 1907 and 1929.

In reality, it helps when your country is one of the few not in ashes.

FDR in many ways robbed the future with unsustainable public spending. I'm not sure how we reasonably dig out now.
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What 1930s-1940s public spending was unsustainable? Just curious. Following FDR (1945 on) the US enjoyed (and continues to enjoy) unprecedented prosperity. Federal deficit spending didn't become excessive until the 1980s, forty years after FDR's demise.
 
What about the spanish American war? Was there any draft put into place? In my history class that was a war that was big but not big. We covered it because Theodore Roosevelt participated in it and was part of it but not in depth.
 
Day-Tripper said:
What 1930s-1940s public spending was unsustainable? Just curious. Following FDR (1945 on) the US enjoyed (and continues to enjoy) unprecedented prosperity. Federal deficit spending didn't become excessive until the 1980s, forty years after FDR's demise.
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The size of government exploded under FDR. You're going to make me find the book I just read on it.... but I don't have it with me.

You're also ignore some years of stagflation and slow growth.
 
Day-Tripper said:
I disagree.

When the US entered WW1 it had not been involved in a large war for more than 50 years, since the Civil War. Since then the US had changed dramatically, from an overwhelmingly rural nation of descendants from the British Isles to an increasingly urban, industrialized one with 1/3 of the population either being an immigrant or offspring of an immigrant. The vast majority of those immigrants had no English language skills upon arrival.

American government officials realized that the draft would be necessary to raise an army large enough to fight the Kaiser's legions, but were deeply fearful that the huge segment of immigrants & first generation citizens would not respond to either draft registration or actually being drafted. They worried about the huge levels of law enforcement manpower that would be needed to enforce a draft. They thought immigrants and African-Americans would resist, perhaps even violently (the experiences of New York City in 1863, when the Irish fought the draft, were well known).

Their fears were misplaced. Those largely eastern & southern immigrant, Catholic, Orthodox & Jewish (Jews were 6% of the US population in 1917, now less than 2%) newcomers to the US actually served in larger percentages than more established Anglo-Saxon heritage US citizens. The recent Americans flocked to the ranks. Some notables include the air ace Eddie Rickenbacker (whom had a very politically incorrect German accent), Italian-born Michael Valente & Dutch-born Ludovicus Van Iersel whom were awarded the Medal of Honor, etc.

Of the 121 Americans who were awarded the Medal of Honor, 13 were foreign-born (most from enemy nations like Germany & Austria-Hungary).

https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/ethnic_minorities_at_war_usa

"The word “pride” cropped up frequently when immigrant soldiers spoke or wrote of their experiences in uniform: pride in serving their adoptive country, pride in acquitting themselves bravely in battle, pride in honoring the traditions and beliefs of their old country while doing their duty for the new. Each soldier was unique, but on balance, the pride of ethnic minorities boosted their status in their own eyes and in the eyes of the adoptive country."

Another WW1 hero, Alvin York, was initially horrified that he had to serve alongside Russian Jews, Poles, Italians, Irishmen, Czechs, etc. whom he regarded as inferior and not really Americans. By the end of the war he'd write that he loved his fellow doughboys more than brothers and would gladly lay down his life to protect his buddies.

A great read:

"The Long Way Home: An American Journey From Ellis Island to the Great War" by David Laskin.

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/lo...d=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP2782&k_clickid=3x2782
Click to expand...

This is an inspiring part of American history. As much as I would like to think this would be true today I just don't see the same level of pride and unity existing in U.S. natives, not to mention immigrants, if a draft were instituted, either military or civil service. I hope I'm wrong.
 
madhttr said:
This is an inspiring part of American history. As much as I would like to think this would be true today I just don't see the same level of pride and unity existing in U.S. natives, not to mention immigrants, if a draft were instituted, either military or civil service. I hope I'm wrong.
Click to expand...

I think you're wrong.

We had the "benefit" of being attacked before our entries in WWI and WWII.

Drafts weren't well received when we weren't responding....
 
LineInTheSand said:
madhttr said:
This is an inspiring part of American history. As much as I would like to think this would be true today I just don't see the same level of pride and unity existing in U.S. natives, not to mention immigrants, if a draft were instituted, either military or civil service. I hope I'm wrong.
Click to expand...

I think you're wrong.

We had the "benefit" of being attacked before our entries in WWI and WWII.

Drafts weren't well received when we weren't responding....
Click to expand...

Well.....WW1 certainly feature any Pearl Harbor-like attack and there
madhttr said:
Day-Tripper said:
I disagree.

When the US entered WW1 it had not been involved in a large war for more than 50 years, since the Civil War. Since then the US had changed dramatically, from an overwhelmingly rural nation of descendants from the British Isles to an increasingly urban, industrialized one with 1/3 of the population either being an immigrant or offspring of an immigrant. The vast majority of those immigrants had no English language skills upon arrival.

American government officials realized that the draft would be necessary to raise an army large enough to fight the Kaiser's legions, but were deeply fearful that the huge segment of immigrants & first generation citizens would not respond to either draft registration or actually being drafted. They worried about the huge levels of law enforcement manpower that would be needed to enforce a draft. They thought immigrants and African-Americans would resist, perhaps even violently (the experiences of New York City in 1863, when the Irish fought the draft, were well known).

Their fears were misplaced. Those largely eastern & southern immigrant, Catholic, Orthodox & Jewish (Jews were 6% of the US population in 1917, now less than 2%) newcomers to the US actually served in larger percentages than more established Anglo-Saxon heritage US citizens. The recent Americans flocked to the ranks. Some notables include the air ace Eddie Rickenbacker (whom had a very politically incorrect German accent), Italian-born Michael Valente & Dutch-born Ludovicus Van Iersel whom were awarded the Medal of Honor, etc.

Of the 121 Americans who were awarded the Medal of Honor, 13 were foreign-born (most from enemy nations like Germany & Austria-Hungary).

https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/ethnic_minorities_at_war_usa

"The word “pride” cropped up frequently when immigrant soldiers spoke or wrote of their experiences in uniform: pride in serving their adoptive country, pride in acquitting themselves bravely in battle, pride in honoring the traditions and beliefs of their old country while doing their duty for the new. Each soldier was unique, but on balance, the pride of ethnic minorities boosted their status in their own eyes and in the eyes of the adoptive country."

Another WW1 hero, Alvin York, was initially horrified that he had to serve alongside Russian Jews, Poles, Italians, Irishmen, Czechs, etc. whom he regarded as inferior and not really Americans. By the end of the war he'd write that he loved his fellow doughboys more than brothers and would gladly lay down his life to protect his buddies.

A great read:

"The Long Way Home: An American Journey From Ellis Island to the Great War" by David Laskin.

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/lo...d=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP2782&k_clickid=3x2782
Click to expand...

This is an inspiring part of American history. As much as I would like to think this would be true today I just don't see the same level of pride and unity existing in U.S. natives, not to mention immigrants, if a draft were instituted, either military or civil service. I hope I'm wrong.
Click to expand...

Read William Manchester's "Goodbye Darkness". He writes from a first hand point of view how patriotism & spirit of sacrifice was not too prevalent before Pearl Harbor. Being cynical certainly was. Getting into war or volunteering made you a sucker. Pearl Harbor changed all that.

Don't forget the spirit which was widespread after 9/11.

And don't forget that Americans after WW2 until the height of the Vietnam War didn't mind a peacetime draft too much. It was simply part of life. Celebrities like Elvis Presley & Willie Mays got drafted & served, losing tons of cash in doing so, because they considered it their duty. Mickey Mantle go booed by fans at Yankee Stadium - not for hitting poorly but because he wasn't serving in the Korean War. Even gangsters didn't fight being drafted, like Henry Hill from "Goodfellas" infamy.

You'd be surprised what Americans (back then and today) can do for their country (and themselves) if they are only asked.
 
usafa2022 said:
Day-Tripper said:
The federal income tax really cam of age in WW1. The largest marginal income tax rate during WW2 was in excess of 90%! You certainly argue that putting a man on the moon would not have happened if Uncle Sam didn't spend whatever it took to put him there. And without the FDIC (making US banks the safest place on earth to put money), SEC (regulating Wall Street to attract investment from all over the planet), GI Bill (free tuition, 100% mortgages, etc.), TVA (electrification of the Tennessee Valley), Social Security, Medicare, farm subsidies, etc. the rising of the Great Middle Class of the 2nd half of the 20th century would have never occurred.
Click to expand...

The New Deal was good in all, for the short term at least, but by far its most lasting effect was changing many Americans' minds about the role their government should play in their lives. Today we take for granted that the things you mentioned (Medicare, Social Security, etc.) are provided at the federal level, but before FDR, those would have been unthinkable. Nobody really wanted DC to play an active role in their communities or especially in their personal lives, financial or otherwise. But after the Depression and WWII, suddenly it was totally fine for these programs to exist. This country was never intended to be run like that, and extending the federal government's reach undermines the original purpose for founding the US in the first place.

We're probably gonna have to agree to disagree on this since it's an ideological thing, but personally, I do not think "big government spending"--and big government influence, by extension--are in out best interest, at least in peacetime. Having a draft, except during a major war, isn't consistent with that.
Click to expand...
 
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