Academic Quality Question

[jasperdog]

Let me clarify this. Would love to have feedback from the active knowledgeable folks here;

1- Does attrition HAVE to happen? By that, with the historical rate of washouts being very close to the same percentage year after year, it would almost be reasonable to say the academy could not support a "perfect" class because there would not be enough staff or facilities to do so.

2- IF (and it's a huge if) attrition has to happen, would it be possible that some mids are not in the tougher,harder,weaker, more difficult etc.etc. professor's classes by sheer accident or luck of the draw? (it would be hard to believe, the powers that be, do not know who those profs are)

Thanks and please don't shoot me, I just had these thoughts after hearing over and over about certain profs.

My answers and thoughts and they are just that I have no a-priori knowledge on the subject.

RE 1: I believe that attrition does indeed "have to happen", my understanding on that subject was/is that the A-Split is slightly smaller than the B-Split so that fewer second and third class men are on campus when the entering Class first arrives and before the natural/historical attrition that happens through the end of first trimester occurs.

RE 2: I do indeed it's basically "luck of the draw" though of course sone profs and classes are historically harder to get through. I always believed the profs were as much based on what majors you took as that drives what sections you are in and what classes you must take.

Just my thoughts from past observations and now thinking about it once again.

 

[KPMum2012]

I've avoided this discussion because the only information I have to go by is DD's opinions, which are biased, of course. From the inside, it feels worse and there are faults on her side as well. Yes, there are some professors who can't teach. And then there are some classes that are just extremely difficult, and not only in plebe year. The advanced chem course for engineers is one.

But, on the subject of attrition, it seems your question is based on a mistaken belief that attrition like that doesn't happen in other colleges. But it does. It's not always visible because it may take the form of someone dropping out of the engineering department to pursue a humanities degree instead. Engineering programs often have a high attrition rate early in the program. One of the statistics the College Board tracks is percent of students who complete a degree in 6(?) years. By that standard, the Service Academies do well.

I think the reason we perceive the attrition to be so bad is that mids don't have the option to change majors and stay. They can't just automatically go onto a 5 year plan, or 6 year plan, because they failed a class. But that's a function of the fact that the taxpayers are footing the bill. We wouldn't question it when a scholarship board revokes a student's scholarship because they fail to maintain the required GPA.

 

[baxted]

Attrition Numbers

...But, on the subject of attrition, it seems your question is based on a mistaken belief that attrition like that doesn't happen in other colleges. But it does. It's not always visible because it may take the form of someone dropping out of the engineering department to pursue a humanities degree instead. Engineering programs often have a high attrition rate early in the program. One of the statistics the College Board tracks is percent of students who complete a degree in 6(?) years. By that standard, the Service Academies do well.

KPMum makes a great point. Most of us who have gone through engineering programs have lived seeing many faces from freshman year. My own experience in mechanical engineering was 152 in, 51 graduated. But even that is a funny number as there were transfers in the junior year from 2 year schools, transfers out for those that were probably tired of the winters (which ran from July 5 to July 3) and lots of failures.

I took over a Mechanical Technology program this spring at a community college, and I am seeing the attrition play out. I have 22 students in my Statics and Dynamics class and 7 are all but done already and 3 or 4 more are hanging on by their fingernails. My seniors (2nd year students in community college parlance) number 8 from 22 last year! However, they are all doing very well in my Machine Design class. Most of the technology or pre-engineering programs try to run "3-2": 3 sections the first year and 2 sections the 2nd year.

We have many programs to help failing students and certainly, some of them do get their act together. Sadly, most give up and stop responding to emails, stop coming to class and just drop out. I don't offer why that is (although I have several opinions on the subject) but it is a fact of life. Many will come back and try again and will fly through. As KPMum says, look at the 6 year graduation rate and you will see that things aren't so bad!

 

[jasperdog]

KPMum2012 and baxted: Thanks for adding an interesting and modulating and as objective as possible perspective to this discussion. Given most of the contributions to this discussion are coming from parents and/or current midshipmen, we are not at all unbiased, and as KPMum2012 indicates we aren't really seeing a full data set either.

Further as I think is borne out by basted's posting, there are many differences that come in to play and quite simply there really isn't any point at looking at USMMA's six (6) year graduation rate since there are so few that are given the option of taking six years to graduate. Personally I'm okay with that, as KPMum2012 notes "We wouldn't question it when a scholarship board revokes a student's scholarship because they fail to maintain the required GPA."

I've already posted a lot of my thoughts on this topic here and on earlier threads about it so I won't pile on, I just wanted to say how relevant I thought your points were and they also make clear that USMMA is not unique. - It's not a high school and my experience is that at the College/University level the responsibility for "learning" rests much more solidly on the students then on the professors to "teach" the material. I think you are saying that in a couple of different "kinder/gentler" ways in your posts - am I getting that right?

 

[KPMum2012]

KPMum2012 and baxted: . . . quite simply there really isn't any point at looking at USMMA's six (6) year graduation rate since there are so few that are given the option of taking six years to graduate.

No, they don't get six years. But compare the 6 year graduation rate at other schools to KP's graduation rate and KP's attrition doesn't look so bad.

And yes, I was saying that a lot of the responsibility for learning does rest on the students. (Not that professors should be excused from the responsibility of teaching.) But my biggest concern is this perception that attrition is somehow unique. It happens in all colleges, in all programs. It looks different at KP because, by the nature of a service academy, those alternatives of taking extra time to finish or changing majors aren't possible there.

 

[Packer]

From the collegeapps.about.com site
•First Year Student Retention: 89%
•4-Year Graduation Rate: 64%
•6-Year Graduation Rate: 72%

These numbers are better than most universities but not as good as the other academies. It should be better than most universities as the caliber of students is higher and you don't have students dropping out for financial reasons.

Does the difference between the 4 year and 6 year graduation make sense? This would mean that 20-25 out of a class are taking more than 4 years to graduate.

 

[KPEngineer]

I do not think the quality of ones education can be measured by either graduation rates or GPA. The true measure of your education is found by looking at the alumni. I look at some of my own classmates and see a few Vice Presidents and at least one owner of a successful Naval Architecture firm. There are Ships Captains, Chief Engineers and Senior Military Officers. More than one Naval Officer who has either been a Commanding Officer or selected for it. Not too bad for a bunch of kids still in their 30s

Another measure, albiet subjective, is how much is retained for how long. After 10+ years shoreside I went back to see and am currently studying to upgrade my license. A good portion is still with me. Some of it I was struggling with so I pulled out my Modern Marine Engineers Manual from KP. I reread one of the chapters which was written by one of my KP professors and I`ve getting almost all the practice questions right ever since.

 

[cmakin]

Let me clarify this. Would love to have feedback from the active knowledgeable folks here;

1- Does attrition HAVE to happen? By that, with the historical rate of washouts being very close to the same percentage year after year, it would almost be reasonable to say the academy could not support a "perfect" class because there would not be enough staff or facilities to do so.

2- IF (and it's a huge if) attrition has to happen, would it be possible that some mids are not in the tougher,harder,weaker, more difficult etc.etc. professor's classes by sheer accident or luck of the draw? (it would be hard to believe, the powers that be, do not know who those profs are)

Thanks and please don't shoot me, I just had these thoughts after hearing over and over about certain profs.

There will be attrition at any highly competitive academic/disciplinary institution. Even if all the Plebe Candidates knew what they were in for ahead of time, there will be washouts. I think that the attrition rate at KP is higher since many start the program as their second or third choice as an academy.

There are three things, in my opinion, that would cause a candidate to drop out.

First is the regimental system. Indoctrination is the first exposure to many of a strong regimental system and any prolonged period without contact with family and friends. For those candidates that were stronger academically than athletically, it can be a real challenge, also.

Second is the academic system. As many have mentioned in this thread and others, there are four years of college crammed into three years. There is also the requirement to maintain the 2.0 average (2.0 and Go! is what we called it) while also dealing with the regimental system during Plebe year.

The third factor, and maybe the strongest is Sea Year. Very few institutes of higher learning place their students directly into their careers like KP. The lifestyle and demands of a life at sea can often be more than most have ever dealt with or care to. Now, things have changed for the men and women at sea since I first signed on a vessel, but it is still a real challenge. Even today most people I deal with outside of the industry (and some in) have no interest in being away from friends and family for weeks or months at a time.

Personally, I don't see a high attrition rate as a bad thing at all. It shows that those who do survive and excel in the program are a cut above those that made it through a less challenging one.

 

[kpbaseballmom]

One factor that helps prevent attrition is morale, among other things. Can anyone name the 3 most important morale boosters/programs on campus that help the mids maintain a strong attitude toward both the regimental difficulties and the academic difficulties? What programs need support on campus?

 

[kp2001]

One factor that helps prevent attrition is morale, among other things. Can anyone name the 3 most important morale boosters/programs on campus that help the mids maintain a strong attitude toward both the regimental difficulties and the academic difficulties? What programs need support on campus?

Here would be my votes, simply from my experience:

1)Athletics/Waterfront
2)Esprit de corps (internally generated, tough to "support")
3)Other activities (Chapel, EMT, various clubs, etc)

as a plebe:
4)Knowing that recognition is somewhere in the future

 

[2013Parent]

Here would be my votes, simply from my experience:

1)Athletics/Waterfront
2)Esprit de corps (internally generated, tough to "support")
3)Other activities (Chapel, EMT, various clubs, etc)

as a plebe:
4)Knowing that recognition is somewhere in the future

KP2001....all four of your "votes" make sense. In the end, involvement in these areas will keep a person on track and supporting one another. If a mid does not choose to participate in 1,2 or 3, IMHO, they will be less likely to succeed......and yes, number 2 is something you choose to participate in.

On another point, NO, I do not think attrition here is unique. My question was more based on my DS's observations (stated by others, and agreed to by me, that are biased) Those thoughts being, KP leadership sees the weak and ensures they are challenged more with the profs that are tougher.......so, at the end of the day, if they make it through, they really had to want it more.....another result though is attrition is accomplished quickly and the herd is thinned........especially during the first year with a marked difference between some calc and physics profs. Conversely, the right mid on the right team, with the right background never seems to have those profs.

That is a view shared by some of the students.......again, please do not shoot me. I was just wondering what more experienced and mature out there thought and you have shared.......thanks.

 

[KPMum2012]

I understand where you're coming from, now. No, we won't shoot the messenger. My DD has said some similar things. She's straight engine. Her section has had some steep attrition in the last year. They've taken to calling themselves "Survivor Section." She believes, and I have no factual basis to know if she is right or wrong, that some professors have a bias against the straight engine students as the "slow" or "dumb" sections. She thinks that some of those professors are less willing to put forth effort to help the straight engine students. She's quoted a few things said to her group that sound like they back her up. (Note: for all we know, they're saying the exact same things to their other sections.) Again, remember this is her perception. And she is one of the champions at the KP sport of complaining. So I take all of this with copious quantities of salt while trying to encourage her.

I don't know if some students are steered to more difficult sections or if something else is happening. I believe that attrition rates are higher among the engineers. I also know that my daughter has seen yet more members of her section in danger of disenrollment after their first tri as 2C, when they thought they were pretty secure. I don't know if they relaxed a bit. But I do know that she was quite shaken at the end of Fall tri.

What does it all mean? I don't know and since we're not there I don't think we can ever know completely. They live in a pressure cooker and when people are stressed, things appear in their worst light. I just close my eyes and hold on tight as we hit each new section of the roller coaster. I have to believe she'll make it. I think she's stubborn enough to refuse to let KP beat her. But I'm certainly getting more gray hair every tri.

 

[kp2001]

Those thoughts being, KP leadership sees the weak and ensures they are challenged more with the profs that are tougher.......so, at the end of the day, if they make it through, they really had to want it more.....another result though is attrition is accomplished quickly and the herd is thinned........especially during the first year with a marked difference between some calc and physics profs. Conversely, the right mid on the right team, with the right background never seems to have those profs.

Personally that's the first time I've ever heard of this idea being tossed around. I would say it would take quite the conspiracy for this to actually take place. The main reason being that the classes are divided into sections and they definitely don't put all the "shining stars" in one section. The entire section has the same professor, so I can't really see how some people would be singled out and sent to certain professors.

I think the scheduling has much more to do with "this section needs this class which is offered at this time which matches with the rest of their schedule."

 

[2013Parent]

....I don't know if some students are steered to more difficult sections or if something else is happening. I believe that attrition rates are higher among the engineers. ......

.........What does it all mean? I don't know.......... I have to believe she'll make it. I think she's stubborn enough to refuse to let KP beat her. But I'm certainly getting more gray hair every tri.

Got to agree on the Engineering thing.....courses are harder (I think)

I used to believe the same thing about my guy, but lately, there have been huge (and I am not exagerating) poor decisions. I keep thinking about the movie "An Officer and a Gentleman" when Lou Gosset, the DI, is lecturing them and saying: "Not everthing that can trip you up is on the base Sweet Pea!"

Whether or not the hardened veterans out there agree, it is gut wretching for parents....even parents of these salty, seasoned, 19 year old adults........Because we care. Because we love. Because we know what an opportunity this is. .......all the while knowing it does not have a damn thing to do with us......it is their life and they have to live it........transition to parent of an adult has been the most challenging chapter of my life......for those that have had an easy time of that transition - God Bless.

 

[kp13]

Made by theycallmeferrari

 

[ProudMom2014]

KP13- a picture is worth a thousand words....

 

[KPEngineer]

I also know that my daughter has seen yet more members of her section in danger of disenrollment after their first tri as 2C, when they thought they were pretty secure.:

You are NEVER secure until you walk out the gate with your diploma and license ... I saw people disenrolled after 3rd quarter of 1/C year with basically only license exams to go. I actually thought 2/C year was the most difficult as an engineer too, it is when you delve deepest into theory.

I seriously doubt anyone is "targeted", what would be the point? The only ones you would really want to invest any effort into ensuring they don't graduate are the problem children and their own behavior will usually solve the problem for you.

In my opinion, the engineering curriculum is definitely tougher, but the deckie license exams are harder with Rules and Celestial being 90% to pass and just generally harder anyway. Why did the deckie cross the road? ... I don't know but he got 3 credits for it.

 

[Packer]

Thanks everyone! I have heard enough to continue to offer encouragement to my son rather than try to discourage him from seeking an appointment to KP. My sense is a fine education is available.

KPEngineer: I would have to agree that it would make no sense to "target" anyone. Everyone sink or swim it is up to you.

 

[kp2001]

Why did the deckie cross the road? ... I don't know but he got 3 credits for it.

I must have missed out on those 3 credits.....but I did get 3 credits for SCUBA class and also got a handful of credits for playing a Navy computer game 1st class year as an elective (I think that one was something like Naval Weapons Systems)

 

[cmakin]

and also got a handful of credits for playing a Navy computer game 1st class year as an elective (I think that one was something like Naval Weapons Systems)

YOU SUNK MY BATTLESHIP!!!!!

Sorry, I just gotta swing at the slow ones. . .