Academy honor cases focus on redemption, not expulsion

[WAMom68]

Not to mention a few threads here concerning crimes and honor violations at West Point were summarily deleted.

Correction Loo: ONE thread regarding the trial of a West Point cadet was deleted. I should know since I am the one that deleted it. It wasn't removed because I am "protecting" the academy. It was deleted because of the unnecessary commentary that went with it (implying the cadet got a lesser sentence because he blackmailed the US Army officer deciding the case).

That was quite awhile ago...you sure can hold a grudge!

Loo =

 

[NavIss58]

So Mom, help me understand here, if an infraction under the USMA Honor Code is witnessed but not reported, then we have two infractions, yeah? But if neither infraction is reported (as suggest by the representation of the USNA Honor Concept), did the infraction ever exist at all? Code or concept, neither action (nor inaction) is honorable.

 

[Maximus]

Correction Loo: ONE thread regarding the trial of a West Point cadet was deleted. I should know since I am the one that deleted it. It wasn't removed because I am "protecting" the academy. It was deleted because of the unnecessary commentary that went with it (implying the cadet got a lesser sentence because he blackmailed the US Army officer deciding the case).

That was quite awhile ago...you sure can hold a grudge!

Loo =

WAmom, all due respect but I don't get where you are going with the constant "Loo" and then the disparaging smiley?

I think he brings up a great topic and I don't see why he should be shouted out of the room. I'm sure you've read "Absolutely American" and you've read about the 'bending of the Honor Code' at West Point over the last decade.

 

[LineInTheSand]

I'm not convinced "tolerating" an honor offense is, in itself an honor offense, anymore than I believe seeing someone steal a candy bar amounts to the onlooker stealing too.

I completely believe that "tolerating" an honor offense, and not reporting it is a conduct offense. In fact, it's not only a conduct offense, but a Class I conduct offense.

I concur with previous posters, cadets/midshipmen may tolerate an honor offense, the difference between it being a BIG class I offense or an honor offense for the person who failed to report the offense is not the deciding factor.


Eh, what do I know....I was only a cadet at one time.

 

[Maximus]

Hey come on LITS, these two gals were dealt with very harshly! lol

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"This is a good example of an outstanding midshipman that was trying to do the right thing but didn't think it through all the way," wrote one midshipman who investigated the case.

As for the midshipman who forged the taps log, she was ordered to undergo formal honor counseling and write a three-page paper on "moral courage and integrity." She also had to keep an "integrity journal" over winter break, according to the documents.

Lastly, the mid who was AWOL and solicited someone to falsify the record on her behalf told honor officers she was confused about whether she had liberty that weekend or not, and hadn't meant to break any rules. She was put on remediation training for four months and was given a D in her military rating, plus was required to work 20 hours on an honor project.

Hartman said it was a disgrace that no one was kicked out of the academy after conspiring to falsify personnel status reports, documents that are the lifeblood of any military organization.

 

[Luigi59]

That was quite awhile ago...you sure can hold a grudge!

Ms. Wammo -

Time certainly changes memories, but not the truth. The thread was censored. If what you claim were true, you could have deleted the supposed "unnecessary comments" and left the legitimate news story.


Back on topic -

I wonder how they feel about the missing USNA Mid who was found AWOL yesterday who lied to the police about being kidnapped and held for ransom instead of reporting back to Annapolis on Sunday? http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=8885

Of course, it's my fault for not ignoring it.

 

[gunner1zeus]

LULUhahaha)

as for the kidnapping victim I've always been told if your going to lie, make it a whopper, that way it's easier to remember the details.

As to the previous matter I guess good moral character isn't computed in the whole person concept, When admission standards are lowered it will result in lower standards within the academies.

 

[PAParentUSNA]

curious

My question is what does this have to do with anything in regards to young academy hopefuls applying to SA's?
Understood this is news and more or less issues that the academy and alumni need to resolve, but frankly I am a bit disappointed that these blogs have turned into "my school is better then yours". I am sure in this day and age all the SA's have internal issues and "issues" , but do not see how graduates and alumni using these to agitate others useful, beneficial to parents and youth coming on these blogs to get answers to the admission process.

 

[Luigi59]

My question is what does this have to do with anything in regards to young academy hopefuls applying to SA's?

About as much as academy football team/tailgating info, retirement discussions, TRi-Care complaints, or Ross Perot getting an award from West Point.

It's all news about the military academies.

It certainly would be a pretty boring forum if every thread was "What are my chances?", "I got an LOA!!!" , and DODMERB DQ posts.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Is this "man-up" enough? I mean they are not exactly hiding behind some anonymous quotes! They have put their names, their professions and yes in a way, their own honor on the line. Would you agree?

I don't know. The story doesn't make it clear if these are the disgruntled graduates or their attorneys - who are also graduates.
The author could have said: "Three Naval Academy graduates (and then named them)....."
The story just refers to a group of graduates. We don't know how big that group is and who else might be in the group.

 

[777flier]

Luigi and others on this thread:

As a parent of a SA hopeful, I feel it is important for prospective students to learn as much as possible about the culture of any school they wish to attend. It is even more crucial for a SA.

Last night, I referred to the USNA honor articles and Prof. Fleming's diversity critiques, in addition to USCGA expulsions this summer, and past sexual issues at other SA's during an excellent discussion with my daughter. We also looked into studentreview.com (positive and negative comments) and have had conversations with graduates and current cadets (no mids yet). All of this, including visits to the academy, is valuable intel gathering. Media reports must be scrutinized for motivation and political angles as well. Chances of success increase when one goes in with eyes wide open.

dolium volvitur: an empty cask is easily rolled

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Media reports must be scrutinized for motivation and political angles as well. Chances of success increase when one goes in with eyes wide open.

Absolutely. Understand the Naval Academy is located in Annapolis and the local paper loves to print anything and everything concerning the goings on.
Two things - be cautious of the bias and don't come away thinking the other academies are "perfect" or "better" because one gets bad press.
Don't get me wrong - I am all for freedom of the press. I don't have a problem with fair reporting.

All academies have bad things - situations come and go. A lot happens behind the scenes that doesn't make the paper.
I would hate to see a candidate NOT apply or attend USNA because of this "investigative reporting".

 

[wannabe2013]

So Mom, help me understand here, if an infraction under the USMA Honor Code is witnessed but not reported, then we have two infractions, yeah? But if neither infraction is reported (as suggest by the representation of the USNA Honor Concept), did the infraction ever exist at all? Code or concept, neither action (nor inaction) is honorable.

You do not understand the USNA Honor Concept at all. The infraction existed but it was dealt with on a personal level. The system is designed to "foster" honor within every midshipman. The Brigade feels that a system which only punishes you for honor offenses would not make you an honorable person it will only make you act honorable until you aren't scared of punishment anymore. Its not all about getting kicked out or having someone punished. The person of the Honor system at any of the Academies is that when the mids/cadets graduate they have the honesty and integrity necessary to lead there men. The Naval Academy looks at it from the POV that they teach you math skills and reading skills and leadership skills while there, why shouldn't they teach you honor? If on Graduation/Commissioning day you have and understand honor and why it is important, then what happened at the Academy is irrelevant in the Navy's eyes. (Yes, I know honor is a personal thing and you should never surrender it, and there are consequences for honor offenses while at the Academy.) Now, if you lie about something that effects what you are as an officer (i.e. grades or PRT) and keep lieing about it thats when you get separated.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

I'm not convinced "tolerating" an honor offense is, in itself an honor offense, anymore than I believe seeing someone steal a candy bar amounts to the onlooker stealing too.

I completely believe that "tolerating" an honor offense, and not reporting it is a conduct offense. In fact, it's not only a conduct offense, but a Class I conduct offense.

Maybe at the Coast Guard Academy but not at West Point.
From the USMA website:
http://www.usma.edu/Committees/Honor/Info/main.htm

The Corps of Cadets bears the responsibility to resolve all possible violations of the Code through detailed, independent investigations and, when required, Honor Investigative Hearings. If a cadet (or anyone else) suspects that a violation occurred, then she or he is expected to approach the individual to clarify what happened (this step is optional). If that approach resolves the issue; i.e., the cadet making the allegation realizes no Honor violation occurred, then the issue will be dropped. However, if the person making the allegation still believes a violation may have occurred, she or he is obligated to inform a member of the Honor Committee within 24 hours. Failure to do so is considered "toleration," which is itself a violation of the Honor Code (the 24 hour rule is a guideline, cadets are not automatically in violation of the Code if they take more than 24 hours to report a violation). ........

 

[NavIss58]

Thank you 2013 for clarifying that. I do understand, just have a different opinion. And thank you Mom for your interest as well. I'm sure Luigi enjoyed our discussions.

I will leave it at this by quoting Commandant of Midshipman Capt. Klunder when he said "...we [are] missing the real core understanding of what honor [is] all about,".

I believe you and Mom will agree with me on this point, that it's a good time to put down the keyboard and say a prayer for the honorable and courageous soldiers in TX. May God bless them and their families in this difficult time.

 

[Maximus]

You do not understand the USNA Honor Concept at all. The infraction existed but it was dealt with on a personal level. The system is designed to "foster" honor within every midshipman. The Brigade feels that a system which only punishes you for honor offenses would not make you an honorable person it will only make you act honorable until you aren't scared of punishment anymore. Its not all about getting kicked out or having someone punished. The person of the Honor system at any of the Academies is that when the mids/cadets graduate they have the honesty and integrity necessary to lead there men. The Naval Academy looks at it from the POV that they teach you math skills and reading skills and leadership skills while there, why shouldn't they teach you honor? If on Graduation/Commissioning day you have and understand honor and why it is important, then what happened at the Academy is irrelevant in the Navy's eyes. (Yes, I know honor is a personal thing and you should never surrender it, and there are consequences for honor offenses while at the Academy.) Now, if you lie about something that effects what you are as an officer (i.e. grades or PRT) and keep lieing about it thats when you get separated.

I guess this is why it's called "Concept" instead of "Code" now?

Here is a great quote and it's not even a military quote:
Chancellor Madison Sarratt, "Today I give you two examinations, one in trigonometry and one in honesty. I hope you pass them both, but if you must fail one, let it be trigonometry for there are many good men in this world today who cannot pass an examination in trigonometry, but there are no good men in the world who cannot pass an examination in honesty."

 

[gunner1zeus]

You do not understand the USNA Honor Concept at all. The system is designed to "foster" honor within every midshipman. The Naval Academy looks at it from the POV that they teach you math skills and reading skills and leadership skills while there, why shouldn't they teach you honor? .

so you are the all knowing guru of the USNA honor concept

If a cadet has no value of honor instilled in them in the eighteen years of growing up prior to reporting to the academy you believe you can teach them honor in four years using your 95 page honor guide.

It is you I fear who has little or no understanding of a code of honor. Honor is not something that can be learned from a book or through lectures. Honor is doing what is right, even when it's not the easiest, fastest or most popular.
Honor isn't knowing right from wrong, I believe every human is born with that knowledge. It is the intestinal fortitude to do what is right.

Don't lie, cheat or steal pretty much sums it up and don't worry about somebody else doing the honorable thing, just set the example by doing the honorable thing yourself. Lead by example.

 

[bruno]

Since its amendment in 2005, the Naval Academy Honor Concept - based on the statements above - has filled a 95-page book that explains what honor is and how honor violations are to be handled.

Other service academies rely on honor codes, but the Naval Academy sets a higher standard.

I have reread these interviews and articles multiple times now and still find myself depressed and appalled at what appears to be a bureaucratic rationalization of a serious watering down of the entire honor system at USNA. Lest you think this is just a few disgruntled "old grads" who got an audience with the Annapolis Rag- over on CC there is a Brigade Honor rep who has posted several times complaining of the same watering down effect. Capt Klunder's quotes in particular really leave me staggered because they offer up the classic arguments for someone doing the expedient thing rather than the right things

Klunder said time pressures, not deep character flaws, are behind most violations.
"It is very infrequent I see a malicious, dishonorable act," he said. "Most often it goes something like this: 'Exams are coming up, I'm juggling a million balls, I have six courses. ... I didn't plan well, I've got to do something.' Almost like clockwork, it's mismanagement of time ... nine out of 10 times."
Klunder said varsity athletes, in particular, have so many demands on them, they are more likely than other students to run into trouble.
"Those midshipmen who are in hugely pressured situations where their time is most severe, that is where most of the (violations) come from," he said. "Athletes don't have a lot of time."

So apparently the problem here isn't that they were faced with a crossroads where they could do the honest thing or the dishonest thing- they were just stressed and mismanaged their time. So if only they learn that there is a better way to manage their time they will do the right thing?

But how about the next situation? When they are faced as junior officers with the mission of clearing the building on a dangerous city block out of sight of their commander will they just wait a little while and then transmit and move on when it is them or their personnel in danger of their lives to perform the mission? Who will know?
Your word is your bond and it's not negotiable- it is the cornerstone of a functioning military and it should be what sets the military apart from other professions. Public polls consistently list the military as being the most respected profession- an outcome which I attribute in large part to a recognition that we hold people to the highest level of accountability. Weaken that and the whole thing will come tumbling down. Anyone can be honest when there is no cost to themselves- but the honorable person can be taken at their word in every situation favorable or unfavorable and in the military the leadership MUST BE able to be trusted implicitly because it is a literal matter of life and death.

I don't understand nor do I acknowledge the validity of the argument that you can't expect students coming in to be able to live by a zero defects mentatility when it comes to honor and honesty. Perhaps not the first day- but it shouldn't and doesn't take long to imbue them with a deep down gut understanding of the concept. VMI for example still has a 1 strike and you are gone policy - in an honor code run by the Corps of Cadets. "Cadets will not Lie; Cheat or Steal nor will they tolerate those who do". The penalty for being found guilty of violating that is to be disenrolled, and the penalty is announced at night in front of the entire Corps in a drum out. Seeing a drum out is something not forgotten and not misunderstood by many cadets. This year there have been several drumouts that were particularly painful precisely because they were offenses committed by very popular and competent Cadets who were in positions of leadership. Had they reported themselves honestly when they failed to meet the conditions of their pass permit- they would have been punished but they would have marched on and learned their lesson about time management. But- lying about their status put them in a whole different category and their peers on the Cadet Honor Court found them guilty- KNOWING that the penalty was expulsion.
In comparison at USNA:

What got me was the conspiracies to commit honor violations," said Curt C. Hartman, a 1987 Naval Academy graduate and the attorney who worked for two years to obtain the honor reports. "The mids know they will be 'remediated' and not separated."
Hartman pointed to one 2006 case that dealt with the taps log, the roster that mids must sign at night to record their presence in the barrack.

The FOIA documents contained several cases of forging the log, but in this case a sophomore refused to falsely sign the document for a friend who was staying out one Saturday night. But the reluctant mid proceeded to search out someone else who would commit forgery on behalf of the AWOL mid.

"Now, that's a rationalization," Hartman said of the go-between's involvement.
Honor investigations are conducted by midshipmen under the oversight of commissioned officers, and the mids who investigated this offense concluded the go-between had suffered enough just by having her honor impugned. The mids deemed that no additional punishment was warranted.
"This is a good example of an outstanding midshipman that was trying to do the right thing ," wrote one midshipman who investigated the case.
As for the midshipman who forged the taps log, she was ordered to undergo formal honor counseling and write a three-page paper on "moral courage and integrity." She also had to keep an "integrity journal" over winter break, according to the documents.
Lastly, the mid who was AWOL and solicited someone to falsify the record on her behalf told honor officers she was confused about whether she had liberty that weekend or not, and hadn't meant to break any rules. She was put on remediation training

We won't hold a USNA midshipmen to the standard in part because: "

some surveys of high school students show that as many as 95 percent cheat at some point. Also, it appears that today's teenagers come from a less-regimented society, and require additional time in which to acclimate to the military environment

Yet VMI will take Cadets from that same society and give them only one chance to understand that honor and honesty are everything? Either USNA is taking some very marginal people WHICH I DOUBT- or what really has driven this is a perceived need by the administration of the Academy to lower the attrition rate which is what I believe has happened. In the name of expediency they sold out one of the bedrocks of the institution.

"the Naval Academy, like a host of colleges, has gone from deliberately pushing students to the limit in order to winnow out the weak, to trying to retain everyone who makes it through the admissions process"

The US Military is admired and successful BECAUSE we do the right thing at cost to ourselves if necessary while politicians, the stock market, the legal profession are all seen as selling out principle for short term gain. The alumni quoted in these articles are right to be saddened and angry because the USNA administration has apparently adopted expediency over right. I can only hope that someone in a position of authority in the Navy is just as appalled by these articles for the same reason and even now is putting on flank speed to rectify this. We can get smart people and have them technically trained from any source and at far lower cost to all of us. We should expect our Service Academy Cadets and Midshipmen to be the very highest caliber of people at all levels- called to view and live their lives and chosen profession on a higher plane.

 

[Luigi59]

VMI for example still has a 1 strike and you are gone policy - in an honor code run by the Corps of Cadets.

I know for a fact (100% verifiable by the VMI grad himself) that exceptions are made, that their "1 strike and you're out" code can indeed mean 2 strikes.

 

[gunner1zeus]

I know for a fact (100% verifiable by the VMI grad himself) that exceptions are made, that their "1 strike and you're out" code can indeed mean 2 strikes.

luigi59:
would you elaborate please, what was the violation, just curious