Accepted after five cycles of admissions to USMA. I'm a senior in ROTC who would start over.

There's no such thing as an "easy commission."

Academic standards. Physical fitness standards. Character standards. Medical standards. Height/weight standards. Summer training requirements. Cadre evaluations and OMLs. The list goes on and on...

ROTC, OCS, and USMA all do the above in their own way producing a diverse cohort of LTs every year. When they show up to BOLC and later to their units, no one cares where they came from.
 
I was told at my LOE overnight visit that 7 plebes did quit on R-Day, last year. About 200 more cadets are supposed to quit before their commission day based on past statistics. Except for medical issues, some of those who will quit before their commission day would choose to sustain barely until they fulfill their minimum 5-year requirement.

General Patton went to VMI for about two years but pressed a button to re-start his commitment all over again at WP. VMI is also one of the greatest military schools but Patton had a different vision with WP. Although Patton was almost kicked out of WP due to his poor grades, he didn't give up or regret.....but kept marching into history in believing that he will do play a key role in major battles or wars in the future.

With taxpayers' viewpoint, OP's choice seems to be extremely wasteful, inefficient or unwise. However, I believe that WP decided to remain as one of the best military institutions in the world by appointing OP because the Admission Board members would understand the true meaning of diversity, never-give-up-spirit, crazy challenge, thought out of the box, etc. I think that this type of event (!) won't happen in other countries except for WP.

If my mission were assigned to a fierce battle, I would not want to go to the battlefield with those who barely sustained at WP but I would want to go with OP because I know that OP won't give up in any circumstances easily. I don't think that OP wants to join WP only for the minimum 5-year commitment. However, this is my "personal" opinion though.

@OP: "Stay Hungry, Stay Foolish!"

 
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dreamwiz said:
General Patton went to VMI for about two years but pressed a button to re-start his commitment all over again at WP. VMI is also one of the greatest military schools but Patton had a different vision with WP. Although Patton was almost kicked out of WP due to his poor grades, he didn't give up or regret.....
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I’m a big fan of General Patton. I remember a family member of the general once joked about the irony of Patton’s statue at WP being adjacent to the library, a place where he was most likely not to be.
 
@From A Family of Enlisted family of enlisted Good luck to you!!

Please let us know how this works out with your ROTC commissioning (your first post). If it’s allowed or not.
 
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to the OP, you said that you earned a 3 year ROTC scholarship - i presume you've received and applied those funds to pay for college?

in your contract doesn't it say you need to pay it back if you quit ROTC early? maybe quit isn't the right word, but the Army paid for your education with the expectation that you'd commission this year. if you leave the program and don't commission, you're not just "deferring commission", you are starting over in an entirely different commissioning program. you won't have any advance standing at West Point, and you won't get any credit at all for your 3.5+ years of ROTC.

so, my question is, what does the Army get for the 3 years they already paid for? are you prepared to pay that scholarship back?

i think it's possible that if you accept the WP offer, you are not on the hook to repay - BUT, if for any reason you end up leaving WP, then you probably need to pay back the scholarship AND will not have a commission. something to think about.
 
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ROTC at the major university nearest us states:
Contracted Cadets are students who have entered in to a contractual agreement with the Army that they will complete the ROTC program and commission as Second Lieutenants upon graduation.
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Given that the OP will graduate from his current university this semester, I can't see how he can avoid the commission he contracted to accept, and I can't understand how, if he was fully transparent about his situation with USMA, the academy is allowing a commissioned officer to show up on R-day and outrank all his Beast cadre and classmates through to graduation. It just makes no logical or financial sense. It seems to me the OP has just about completed all the terms of his contract and is honor-bound not to reneg on the commission he agreed to accept. He is just too far along. This is not the same as walking away a year or two into the process and agreeing to pay back.

For clarification, I have shared the OP's post with the ROTC coordinator at our local major university as well as the USMA admissions RC in our region. I will report any response I get if the OP does not have an answer from his RC before then.
 
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VelveteenR said:
ROTC at the major university nearest us states:
Contracted Cadets are students who have entered in to a contractual agreement with the Army that they will complete the ROTC program and commission as Second Lieutenants upon graduation
Given that the OP will graduate from his current university this semester, I can't see how he can avoid the commission he contracted to accept, and I can't understand how, if he was fully transparent about his situation with USMA, the academy is allowing a commissioned officer to show up on R-day and outrank all his Beast cadre and classmates through to graduation. It just makes no logical or financial sense. It seems to me the OP has just about completed all the terms of his contract and is honor-bound not to reneg on the commission he agreed to accept.
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Obviously I won't be a commissioned second lieutenant. That's been made abundantly clear, the point is to "delay comission". That would be absurd to have a second lieutenant as a plebe, and I understand that. However, as USMA has offered me an appointment, that should supersede my ROTC contract. My RC said he'd get back to me soon which could mean a while, so I'd like to hear your university's cadre and your local RC's opinion. At this point, I feel I should withdraw from the university so I won't complete the requirements from the logical argument you just made. You seem to make me a villain like I'm not wanting to serve, like I'm trying to somehow get out of my contract to live a civilian life. Through the grapevine, which includes credible sources, a USMA appointment supersedes a ROTC contract or there'd never be any contracted ROTC cadets re-applying, in which the majority applying are four year applicants already contracted to receive financial aid meaning they can't get out of that contract. However the mantra you continue to portray me is the complete opposite of what I'm trying to be and achieve. We're only given one life, and I'm trying to make the most of it.
 
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You're already almost a 2LT. It's semantics at this point. I have no doubt you want to serve, you just don't want to serve as an ROTC officer and that sticks in a lot of craws here as that is not admirable officer behavior. How will you feel when you are working alongside and reporting to ROTC officers? Time to check your attitude about the commission you are about to receive. You have many misconceptions about USMA. West Point will provide absolutely nothing to the Army that ROTC hasn't already given you, but you aren't convinced of that. Attending WP is just an indulgence at this point. The value is in your mind only, not the Army's.

Time to step up and lead, son. Don't waste any more of the Army's time or money.

This is what I received from ROTC so far:

...Honestly, I have to dig into this one a bit. I know we often send Cadets from our program to USMA, but I've never done so with a Cadet as close to commissioning as the student in question. I also think it's just a bad idea for him to start over (on what could be an eight-year plan) on his path to receiving a commission (and I say that as a West Point grad who now commands an ROTC Detachment).

So, please let me do some research. Also, however, I would love to talk to this young man (non-attributional, of course - I don't even have to know his name or what university he is at) if he desires to do so. Please feel free to pass him my phone number.

Very Respectfully,
LTC(P) James A. Sink, U.S. Army
Department Chair and Professor of Military Science
Arizona State University
951 S. Cady Mall
Social Science Building, Room 330
jasink@asu.edu
Office: (480) 965-3318
Cell: (480) 529-1924
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For some reason, I can't PM you, so I've included his info in the post. I'm hoping he doesn't mind.
 
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From A Family of Enlisted said:
You seem to make me a villain like I'm not wanting to serve, like I'm trying to somehow get out of my contract to live a civilian life.
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From A Family of Enlisted said:
We're only given one life, and I'm trying to make the most of it.
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@From A Family of Enlisted, I mentioned in an earlier post that I admire your tenacity and commitment. Now let's get practical.

To your first quote above: Most posters here have not questioned your desire to serve. Actually, they've questioned the wisdom of coming so far in ROTC and now wanting to start over at USMA. This is a valid question and a valid topic -- but not criticism. If there's any criticism of you, it's mainly around the perception you're giving that USMA is a far superior accession path than ROTC and that your commission won't mean as much unless it comes with a WP degree.

To your second quote above: You're exactly right -- we're only given one life and we should try to make the most of it. And frankly, we could all get hit by a bus tomorrow. So here's a question: Would you be making the most of your life by getting on with the business of leading men and women as a 2LT when you're this close to earning those butter bars? Or would you be making the most of your life by turning back the clock and redoing college at WP and deferring active duty another four years? And does your answer change when you acknowledge that our lives could end at any moment? Which set of words do you want on your tombstone, should that tragically happen -- "USMA Cadet" or "USA Officer"?

That's a question that only you can answer. Others can provide an opinion, but the decision is yours. Make sure you heed your own words when making the call.
 
Some dumb questions, i'll post them for the SAF community here. I spoke with 2 PMS during our visit to 2 different universities. Both said, DD will be commissioned the day after she graduates or may be on the same day.

1. If the above is true, the OP will be a 2LT shortly after he graduates. So he would join USMA as a 2nd LT. Is that right? What is the validity of that.
2. If OP decides to defer "commissioning" and join USMA as he has mentioned somewhere on his posts, can that be deferred for 4 years till he graduates USMA?
3. If for some reason OP does not gets good grades (in order to avoid getting a degree, not that he will do) and does not pass the last semester, would his USMA appointment be still valid? I am assuming USMA will want to see him pass his last semester. And if he does, then back to #1.
4. Now this is a wild one.. Is there a possibility of a incorrect decision by USMA. I mean somebody has overlooked that he is a senior in college and about to commission in few months. I am sure they have had cases where seniors (not ROTC) got USMA appointment, but how many who are in same boat as OP.

thank you
 
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#4 is the head scratcher. It’s hard to believe USMA would make an offer of appointment to anyone who is contracted to commission before R-Day. I’m thinking this is the point at which something isn’t right. Also, the OP says he already had a letter to report. An offer of appointment is not binding and does not trump a standing active duty order. I believe the OP’s decision will be decided by the contract, not the appointment.
 
From A Family of Enlisted said:
However, as USMA has offered me an appointment, that should supersede my ROTC contract. My RC said he'd get back to me soon which could mean a while, so I'd like to hear your university's cadre and your local RC's opinion. At this point, I feel I should withdraw from the university so I won't complete the requirements from the logical argument you just made.
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One of the problems with this type of forum is that you get a lot of advice you probably never anticipated. I’m not much for giving unsolicited legal advice and it sure seems you are getting a lot of that. My dad, not legal, advice is to slow down and just wait till you hear from your RC. Then, assuming you have options, decide if any of the input here somehow outweighs what you had planned. Good luck!
 
txfwindian said:
Some dumb questions, i'll post them for the SAF community here. I spoke with 2 PMS during our visit to 2 different universities. Both said, DD will be commissioned the day after she graduates or may be on the same day.

1. If the above is true, the OP will be a 2LT shortly after he graduates. So he would join USMA as a 2nd LT. Is that right? What is the validity of that.
2. If OP decides to defer "commissioning" and join USMA as he has mentioned somewhere on his posts, can that be deferred for 4 years till he graduates USMA?
3. If for some reason OP does not gets good grades (in order to avoid getting a degree, not that he will do) and does not pass the last semester, would his USMA appointment be still valid? I am assuming USMA will want to see him pass his last semester. And if he does, then back to #1.
4. Now this is a wild one.. Is there a possibility of a incorrect decision by USMA. I mean somebody has overlooked that he is a senior in college and about to commission in few months. I am sure they have had cases where seniors (not ROTC) got USMA appointment, but how many who are in same boat as OP.

thank you
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Not dumb questions. These are things many are pondering. I find this fascinating.

#5 “quit” ROTC to attend USMA, get injured before reporting. And then have nothing.
 
@From A Family of Enlisted You might find a kindred spirit with this Academy Insider Podcast guest, Jon Bangsal, 5th time was a charm for him too. I wish you all the best!

www.buzzsprout.com

#005 - Being Excellent with Guest Jon Bangsal '15 USMC - The Academy Insider Your Guide to The United States Naval Academy

In this episode, your host Grant Vermeer speaks with United States Marine Corps officer Jon Bangsal '15 about his experiences and struggles to get into the academy and his lessons learned in Annapolis. Jon while serving in the Marine ...
www.buzzsprout.com www.buzzsprout.com
 
VelveteenR said:
ROTC at the major university nearest us states:



Given that the OP will graduate from his current university this semester, I can't see how he can avoid the commission he contracted to accept, and I can't understand how, if he was fully transparent about his situation with USMA, the academy is allowing a commissioned officer to show up on R-day and outrank all his Beast cadre and classmates through to graduation. It just makes no logical or financial sense. It seems to me the OP has just about completed all the terms of his contract and is honor-bound not to reneg on the commission he agreed to accept. He is just too far along. This is not the same as walking away a year or two into the process and agreeing to pay back.

For clarification, I have shared the OP's post with the ROTC coordinator at our local major university as well as the USMA admissions RC in our region. I will report any response I get if the OP does not have an answer from his RC before then.
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“For clarification, I have shared the OP's post with the ROTC coordinator at our local major university as well as the USMA admissions RC in our region. I will report any response I get if the OP does not have an answer from his RC before then.”

I laughed out loud when I saw your comment! Thanks for sharing good sense of humor about “reporting back to forum users.” 😂
It’s one of the most hilarious comments beating even a GIF at https://www.serviceacademyforums.com/index.php?threads/waiting-room-fun.72764/page-2.
 
The difference between the subject of the podcast and the OP is that the podcast subject paid to attend Northwestern prep on his own prior to his admission to USNA. He was not contracted to ROTC and not on the verge of commission:

Speaker 2: So I applied after my high school didn't get in. I went to a Northwestern preparatory school. Okay, so prep school, it's not like naps. Yeah.

Speaker 1: But was it a part of the Naval Academy, like foundation program is one of the ones that are like sponsored by the Naval Academy or was it just completely separate?

Speaker 2: Don't quote me on that. I think it was one of the foundation. Okay. Schools because uh, some of the students that were there had a foundation scholarship meeting. As soon as they finish that preparatory school, they would get in automatically. Okay. Got It. Got It. For me, I was a free agent man. I didn't get the scholarship. I applied. Yeah. How did we go pay like eight grand in order to get into this prep school? So it was a little daunting for me. It was hesitant, but it was definitely one of the best investments I've ever made.
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I'm bowing out at this point because I can't think of anymore to add, and my interest is not in the OP specifically but this peculiar situation--will the Army agree to pay twice for the same O1? Ultimately, ROTC will decide whether or not and how to enforce or dissolve the contract and order to report, but I do hope we hear the real end of the story.
 
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