Accepted to Harvard but not granted an NROTC scholarship

IvyDad: I have a son who is a 3/C Mid and scholarship student. I am amazed that your son didn't get the NROTC scholarship but if his dream is to be a Naval Officer, please encourage him to stay with the program. The NROTC program is tough and I believe it is especially tough for College Programmers who don't have the financial incentive to stick it out. But he sounds like he is doing exceptionally well and he has the backing of his chain of command. That will certainly enhance his chances of achieving Advanced Standing and hopefully a two-year scholarship. I know when my son went through Orientation Week, the CO told everyone that there were several college programmers who were more highly qualified than the scholarship students. I imagine this happens for a variety of reasons but he said for the most part it was because of their requested majors (several were Tier 3). Hang in there and keep encouraging him!
 
Ivydad,

Is he missing something in his packet?

For example, it is always good advice to any cadet or AD to review their packet before it meets any board. I cannot tell you how many officers that got passed over for rank because they didn't review their file prior to the board, only to see info was missing when they were passed over.

As I stated before academics is the biggest chunk of the WCS, however 40% is ECs. Was he very light on that side? I would assume not since you stated as a freshman he was given a job within the det. Maybe they didn't have that in his record.

I don't think all is lost because the Capt is watching out for him. To me that means he is going to do everything in his power to make sure he gets at least commissioned. I know for the AF, when they go up for their AFSC, their stats AND rec from the commander is reviewed. The commander can write top cadet or one of my top cadets. There is a difference between the two.

The one piece of advice I would say is just believe. You can worry about this until the cows come home, but it will not change anything. Just keep telling yourself and him, it will work out one way or another, and right now all you can do is prove to the Capt. that you are worthy of a commission. How he acts regarding this situation is also important. He needs to remember he is a future officer and act accordingly. Not saying he isn't, but it is pretty hard not to be ticked in this situation and not show the animosity. Don't let him get into the "Screw it" mentality, which is easy to do!
 
Pima said:
He is not contracted. He is doesn't have to fill out any forms. He can simply leave.



Did you miss the multiple times I said I would sell my kidney. Do you think I am selling a kidney because I would want to? Our DS is OOS, without his AFROTC scholarship, he would have gone to other schools that offered more merit...i.e. UMiami with their 100K merit or UNCCH full ride merit. He took the ROTC scholarship and his college offer because it was AF and the college.

My kid is silly, we are too, we just wanted him achieve his dream and were willing to do everything to make it happen. That means selling a kidney if we had to.

As a parent who has a child on ROTC scholarship and could not afford the 40K tuition per yr, I do not bash anyone for accepting this route.

As a spouse and a parent who endured this life for 20+ yrs I feel that I need to acknowledge the high cost that can come with the price.

Bullet buried his 1st crew mate at the ripe old age of 26, I was 9 mos pregnant with DS1. Tell me, is 100K in college loans worth that death? He buried crew mate 2,3, and 4 at 28, I was 5 mos pregnant with DD. He was on the Ramp at the 82nd preparing for a jump when a 16 crashed into a 130 at the age of 29 and killed multiple soldiers, I was 7 mos pregnant with DS2. He was 38 when he lost another F-15E crew mate. It was repeated again just a few yrs later.

He was in the field for my due date of our child. He was in the air when I went into labor with another. He was sent 10 days after I gave birth TDY for yet another child. He missed 8 of the first Halloweens. 10 of our 20 anniversaries. 15 birthdays. Should I continue explaining the emotional cost?

We are not talking about oh well, no biggie, you will be safe. We are talking about the fact that it will impact your life in every aspect.

You need to address all of these issues when signing on the dotted line. You need to understand when you sign, YOU BELONG TO THEM! You can't say, can we negotiate my career field or assignment? You can't say, to MPC, I really would prefer XYZ over ABC. You can't say to the commander, sorry, I have plans this weekend. YOU BELONG TO THEM, and your opinion/desire is not taken into account when it comes to the mission. YOU BELONG TO THEM the minute you take the oath. To say, try another branch for the scholarship, OKAY, just hope you understand that YOU BELONG TO THEM when the rubber hits the road! Hope you get they OWN YOU! Stinks if you think you have wiggle room with the military for the next 4 yrs because you accepted a scholarship. Try telling the Army, I accepted a scholarship, I didn't know I would have to go to Korea on a remote for a yr...go for it, let's see how far that gets them. Are you honestly going to say Remotes don't happen? DO you understand what a HOT LIST is, I do!

Yep, you are right, I know for a fact with 2 kids in college on scholarship, FA, and payment plans it is very difficult. However, as I keep saying, I would sell my kidney to make sure that they could live their dream and not be tied to a career which could kill them for the 4 yrs after they graduate. Silly me, I get the devil is in the details, and I am unwilling for my child to pay even if it means risking my own life to do it!
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I understand where you're coming from since we have similar backgrounds but I come to a different conclusion. I don't see anything wrong with a kid deciding to go the ROTC route because he wants money to fund his education, invaluable leadership experience, and an opportunity to serve. So what if he or she applies to all and flips a coin to decide? Certainly there are differences but there is much more in common. Even within a single service there are many many differences in lifestyles. Some love it and stay in and others get out. Even if they stay in for 8 or 9 years, I don't see the big problem. They are still young, educated ,with a masters under their belt and leadership experience you can't get anywhere else. That sounds like a good trade off.

Clearly there are risks. I can't imagine that students or parents aren't already aware of those risks. Yes, we have lost Teammates and it's painful. It stinks to go to bed knowing that CACO is out in force and not knowing who's house they're going to. Today it looms large. But despite it all, I know that the vast vast majority have come home safe. It may be that well over 2 decades married to a SEAL has skewed my perception of acceptable risk. ROTC and SA seem an acceptable risk to me, even for my own kids, even today.

No doubt military life can be hard on families. I have 40+ years of continuous AD dependent experience as a military child, spouse, and now parent. I don't want to diminish the difficulty. Yes, my husband misses many birthday anniversaries, holidays and five Christmases. He's been there for the birth of some of our kids but not all. We've also had some pretty major trauma that he's missed. I wouldn't have asked for many of these trials but I'm thankful that I've had them. I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from this lifestyle just because it's hard. I especially wouldn't want pity for our way of life. Pity annoys me.
 
I don't want pity either. HOWEVER, many of these parents and cadets have never endured this type of life. They have no real life foundational guide. All they know are shows on the Discovery or Military channel to give them a glimpse.

We need to acknowledge that it is not Hollywood, there is a great sacrifice to this life.

I loved every flipping second of this life...minus, the PCS when my kids were crying leaving their friends.

I loved living in the UK at 25. I loved living in AK at 30. I loved decorating my home with unique items that we collected from around the world. I got so much out of this life as an AD wife. College didn't show me what I was internally made of, it was the AF when I kissed Bullet goodbye without crying so he would not worry about me or our kids.

Let me tell you, I met Bullet at 18, married at 23 after graduating from college. Within our 1st 8 mos of marriage we lived in NM, ID and England. 22 yrs later I am still friends with the girl I met in NM. I'm sure you and I can count on our fingers and toes how many people hated the military because they were only in it for the tuition.

Please, I think you read my post wrong. My post and my opinion are the same. The military life is unique and it takes a unique person to accept what the country demands.

If I had one inkling that the military life was not worth the bad and the good, don't you think I would have said to DS, take my kidney to pay for college?

I really do post my personal opinions for non-military to understand that the real military is not Top Gun or An Officer and A Gentleman. I want them to see everything before they sign on the dotted line. I want them to get it before they give the next 8 yrs as a 17 yo.

Now, since I have become aware that I may be viewed as negative, let me say a couple of things.

1. Bullet cut his career short because we didn't want our children to keep enduring the moves as hs students. We chose not to litter them across the world.

2. Our wonderful DS, hated the moves, but loved the idea of serving his country. He admitted that moving prepared him for his own independence because he constantly had to reinvent himself through his public education. He wants this for his own children. Not a bad compliment to the military from a military child.

3. My heart wrenching story. DD, not a ROTC cadet had to write just like any other typical college app student an essay.

Her essay, why she has kept a jar of different dirt/sand since she was 6. I thought for 10 yrs it was because she was a pack rat :shake:

In her essay to VT she stated it was the only thing she could take with her every time she moved to remind her of her past. She said in this essay that being a military child with no true home taught her 2 things.

1. Her home is where her family is, not a structure, and not a town.
2. The dirt/sand reminded her that soil is like society, each one is unique, and we should never assume that it is all the same.

I have to say, for a 17 yo that was mind blowing to me regarding her insight. It still brings me to tears because this was the child I use to say as we drove away, honey, just don't look back, look forward. I thought we damaged our kids by moving them every 2 yrs or so, only to find out that when they became adults they embraced it!

To me it really is important to understand what will be asked of you. If I have placed too much emphasis on the negative, then I apologize. I would never have my very best friends in the world without the AF. Honestly, Bullet and I joke we're not sure if we would still married if we had to live back in our home state with the In Law issue from each side.

Yet, with all of that said, I will not move off my position as a spouse and a Mom that it takes alot to endure this life. My father was diagnosed as terminally ill with cancer when I lived in England. None of my children were ever viewed in the hospital as newborns, the closest we came to that was 5 days after their birth. I hid from our children for 120 days the fact that their father was in Iraq, green zone. Bullet left more than I want to count with 3-5 days notice for deployments that were to either war zones or backfill.

It really is important to me that members see the good, the bad and the ugly. If you want to say take a scholarship to pay for college, I will respect that opinion, I just want those who consider this option there is a price to pay for that scholarship, and more times than naught it is emotional.

I know for Bullet and myself, we would not advise our children to take a scholarship as a means to pay for tuition. And yes, we are on payment plans, scholarship and student loans for our 2 kids. Take it because you want to serve and are willing to sacrifice your life to serve, don't take it for the check

JMHPO
 
Pima, I am thrilled you were up to the challenge. I am sure 95% of Americans are not capable of making the personal sacrifices that you have endured. Since you a Bullet are in the top 5% of all wage earners in the country; I am equally thrilled that the payment plans and student loans are working out for you and yours.
Thanks for serving!!
 
Pima, I am thrilled you were up to the challenge. I am sure 95% of Americans are not capable of making the personal sacrifices that you have endured. Since you a Bullet are in the top 5% of all wage earners in the country; I am equally thrilled that the payment plans and student loans are working out for you and yours.
Thanks for serving!!
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Excuse me JAM, why the personal attack?

We are definetly not in the top 5% of all wage earners. Anyone who ever spent 20 yrs, and only retired 2 yrs ago as an O5 will be happy to testify that you can't be in that parameter, and def. not with 2 kids in college. Do you actually believe we got FAFSA loans because we were in the top 5%? No we got it because like every one else, our AGI on our TAX RETURN.

Secondly, I think AND believe 100% of Americans are capable of making personal sacrifices like my family and myself did...can we all say the GREATEST GENERATION?

I think we can all do it and it is all based on our belief in serving the country. My husband, myself and our children never expected or asked for worship. We did not have a gun to our heads. We did it on our own free volition...HOWEVER, at 23 when I walked down the aisle to the man I loved, I never thought about the silly things like, I would walk into our closet and all of his clothes would be gone. I never thought that my 3 yr old would displace his shoulder because he rough housed with his siblings and I would be in the ER with a friend, when he was in Korea. I never dreamed that our beloved pet would die while he was in Iraq. These are the silly day in day out facts that military dependents endure.

Yes, theoretically they can walk away at 26-27. I could totally tow the party line. Wouldn't you want to know by accepting a school, assignment, or TA, that this is out the window regarding exiting at 26-27? Should, I just hide the real emotional cost? Sorry, but again, if my child took the scholarship for ONLY FA, I would have a sit down with them. I would sell my engagement ring, my car, anything I could get my hands on to pay for tuition. I don't comprehend your anger that Bullet and I choose to say there are other ways to get a college degree than putting your life on the line, IHP you put you arse on the line because you want to serve and understand the risks.

The military has a great adage...Service before Self. That is all it takes, It takes the belief in understanding your life is not the most important factor or issue. The mission for the good of this country is. If you cannot or will not accept that premise, the military is probably not a good fit for you personally.

Now back on track.

For parents and cadets who are considering this as a financial reason, please contact the nearest det. Talk to them to understand what they will incur with signing on the line, AND that means AD.

You can easily take the scholarship, but just like college admission you need to have a career path. In the ROTC world that is important since upon graduation, they will be immediately commissioned. Typically commissioning happens within hours of the graduation ceremony. Once they take the oath they belong to them. They will receive their career path as a jr. that means their time frame is shorter than the avg student. If they are ROTC scholarship students, it may be tied to their major. For example, get a scholarship for engineering, you can't just flip over to business without their blessing.

If you opt this route for fiscal reasons, understand nobody will think less of you. They will believe you are willing to give 150% as an ROTC member. It is like the SA's, nobody gives a rats arse you have an LOA (=ROTC scholarship) compared to just a straight appointment (=ROTC no scholarship). It is what you do when you arrive. Your arse is going to be chewed either way when you F UP regardless of scholarship.

ROTC exists to make the best officers, who pays for that education is not a part of the equation!
 
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Related, but not directly ROTC, I'd like to comment briefly about Basil and Pima's comments.

Basil; there is absolutely nothing wrong with applying for an ROTC scholarship as a means of paying for college tuition; and in return, the recipient is willing to serve in the military for a specified amount of time. Same with applying to the various academies. And Pima is not arguing or disagreeing with you.

What Pima means; (And I'm only restating, because I know her, and I'm pretty sure I know what she's trying to say. If I'm wrong, she'll kick my butt and put me back on track); a large percentage of ROTC and Academy applicants/recipients, truly have no idea what they are getting into when they apply. Even those who primary reason for applying is "TO SERVE"; even the majority of them do not know what they're getting into. What Pima has stated about "Learning as much as you can, about what you're getting yourself into"; is the same advice I/We give to our academy applicants.

In other words, in a nutshell, what I believe Pima is saying is: Applying and receiving an ROTC scholarship or even an academy appointment; is not something you can just say: "It's worth it, no matter what the military wants of me for the next 4-5 years after graduating". The truth is; for many people, it's NOT WORTH IT. That's why approximately 20% of ALL academy cadets will drop out and not be there 4 years later. That's why many ROTC cadets will be in the ROTC program 1 year, and then give it up. They start to realize not only what they got into for those 4 years, but what they've gotten themselves into for the following 4-5 years.

Basically, before applying for an ROTC scholarship or an academy appointment, try to look at what you're getting yourself into. Not to just say: No matter what is asked of me, it's worth the price of education. I can honestly tell you that if the price of education is the only reason for doing it, then there are other ways to get to college. If serving is important also, then there's nothing wrong with going with an ROTC scholarship and commitment.

On a side note: Pima; being you and bullet are in the top 5% of wage earners, maybe you can give be some money to pay off my house. I didn't get anything from the stimulus package. LOL!!!
 
CC, Exactly!

No butt kicking here!

For the top 5%, trust me, if I had extra money my DD would not be on the payment plan or FAFSA. So, don't look for a check in the mail from us, we are still playing Mega Millions and Power Ball weekly!

Back on topic,

Ivy Dad, your son's fate is not sealed, but I hope through this thread you understand he also has the opportunity to take a realistic view what AD life is like.

If your DS only wants a particular career field, you need to ask him what IF they give you the dregs of the military? Does he still want to serve? Is it serving the NAVY in ANY position, or just his dream?

Before you move any further discuss this issue.

It appears that the Capt is willing to go to bat for him, ask him if there is a caveat regarding accepting the commission...in other words, if they say Public Affairs and not something tied to his degree.
 
Ivy Dad

My DS is also a college program NROTC student but at a top Public University. He is non scholarship because he thought he was going to the USNA but turned his appointment down last minute, and never applied for the scholarship. His unit is about 85% scholarship students and was told that in the past when the college programers apply for the scholarship they recieve it. For next year the Captain was told money would be tighter so scholarships not a guarantee so get the highest gpa and prt as possible. So far DS loves the program and seems to be the right fit, but costing dear ole dad 45k/yr, not quite what Harvard is but close-I feel the pain too.
 
What Pima means; (And I'm only restating, because I know her, and I'm pretty sure I know what she's trying to say. If I'm wrong, she'll kick my butt and put me back on track); a large percentage of ROTC and Academy applicants/recipients, truly have no idea what they are getting into when they apply
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This thread is about IvyDad's son. Since he is in his second year of ROTC he should know what he is getting into by now.

CC- thanks for coming into bail out Pima. I am confused though.
Basilrathbone agrees with me.
Pima delivers another degrading lecture to me in her disagreement with me.
You agree with both Basilrathbone and Pima.

Of course, you want to take the whole conversation out of context, like Pima does.
This thread was a conversation and my comments were directed to ONE person. ONE person who already has a son in ROTC, and hence should have a clear understanding.
Give it a rest.

ROTC exists as a Commissioning source for military officers. They provide financial incentives in the way of tuition to ATTRACT cadets/mids. This is the military policy, not mine.

BTW - Pima - please be careful when you make general statements and there are lurkers here. In Army ROTC, you are not assigned your branch until your Senior year and your major matters none.

For the top 5%, trust me, if I had extra money my DD would not be on the payment plan or FAFSA. So, don't look for a check in the mail from us, we are still playing Mega Millions and Power Ball weekly!
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Yep, just goes to show you how few resources many college students have. Rarely does financial aid provide enough resources for many needy students. The resources are very limited. "Judge not, that ye not be judged".
 
JAM; I was in no way "Bailing out" Pima. She doesn't need me to do that. What I did; and NOT just towards Basil, but ALSO to Pima; was to say that BOTH Basil and Pima were correct in what they were saying. Pima WASN'T saying that there was anything wrong with applying for ROTC scholarships with paying for college as being a primary concern;..... and Basil wasn't saying that knowing what you are getting into, with the military, isn't a very important factor that an applicant needs to consider. Again, they were BOTH correct. But when Basil said he had come to a "Different Conclusion" to Pima's comments, I saw that they were both agreeing, but might not have realized it.

The only reason I am explaining this, is because YOU'RE the one that seems to be the one confused. Not Pima or Basil. Pima didn't deliver anything degrading to you. That's just your perception. Basil and Pima are in agreement with each other. Now, if you happen to agree also, then that is fantastic. Everyone agrees. If you're still confused; the reason I'm replying at all to you; then there's nothing more I can add. You're on your own.
 
To clarify a couple of things...I am a she, a Navy wife. Sorry for the confusing name. Also I didn't post as a point to personally confront Pima. I think she and I would have a blast sitting down for a while and comparing stories (brace yourself, Pima, I have some doozies!). This is the point of view that I specifically don't happen to share with her:

"The point is you DO NOT ACCEPT a scholarship just because one branch offers it over another. You accept because you want to serve in that branch.

As a retired AD wife, and a AFROTC Mom, I would sell my kidney for tuition before I told my kid to take a scholarship for the sake of a scholarship or serving. I would show them that you can still serve this great nation without being in the military. The cost is too high."

I'm not saying she is wrong, I'm just saying I don't agree. I don't see a problem with people applying to several SA and ROTC programs and just taking the one available, even if it were only for the money, how the uniforms looks, etc. Even if they don't like it and get out at the first available moment, they still leave educated and with more leadership opportunities than they would have had in the civilian world as a 22-27 yr old. I personally don't think the cost is too high.

I enjoy reading the personal examples that Pima writes as they hit close to home for me. But that is the kind of information that I think is hard to digest for a teenage kid trying to figure out his military and college options. When I counsel or mentor young wives or girlfriends in our specific Navy community I verify to them that it is hard, no doubt, but that it can be done. Clearly it's doable because I'm doing it and most of the people I know are doing it. I tend to leave out the grisly details. I think to some that can seem overwhelming. There has never been a time when someone found out I was married to a SEAL and they responded, "Wow, that seems easy. You military families have a kick back life". I think that our society respects that military life is hard even when they may not understand exactly what we've been through.

In the case of the OP, I sincerely hope he stays in the Unit and becomes a commissioned Naval Officer one way or another. Go Navy!
 
I do completely understanding doing it for the financial aspect, and there are many people who just want to serve in the military regardless of the branch.

My point is and has been if it is only one branch you want to serve, than serve in that branch. Do not assume all of our branches have the same mission.

If you hate the water, and the idea of being on a ship for 6 months makes you sea sick or claustrophic at just the thought, than don't just throw your name out there.

There are other ways to pay for college. For example, in NC and VA, if you attend the local community college for 2 yrs and pull a 3.0 you are allowed to transfer to any of the state colleges, and yes, that includes UVA and UNCCH, which are in the top 5 nationally recognized public schools. As a jr you can qualify for 6500 in FAFSA, if you commute to college your costs are next to nothing. This is a very popular program, and I know many kids who went this route. Most of them have either just graduated last yr, or are now coming up this yr. Many of them also wanted to get to that school as soon as they could, so they went full time yr round and transferred in the fall of what would be their soph yr at college with their yr group, but is actually now their jr yr. They can do that because we also have jump start, so as a sr in hs they started community classes by attending half day hs and half day college.

Now that is our last 2 states, but my point is there are other options, than just taking the money for ROTC. There are some very unique scholarships out there, ranging from being Polish to a descendent of DAR. Many go unclaimed yrly because people don't know of their existence.

If a candidate is willing to serve in any position in any branch that is one thing, but many posts on these forums are littered with I have wanted to be XYZ since I was 4. To me that is a totally different story. The candidate that has only wanted to be a SEAL in the Navy, is joining to be a SEAL in the NAVY accepting an AFROTC scholarship might be too high of a price because they may hate that life for the next 8 yrs. (4 in college). They also might love it.

It is just important to me, they research every option, every fact and then decide. To this point of their life it will be the most important decision they ever make.

I also feel the same when someone says I am going down this route to be XYZ, i.e. pilot of fighters. I remind them, that the path is long and will turn, there is no guarantee that they will get UPT or even graduate UPT. It is great to have a goal, but they must first and foremost want to serve in that branch. I even said to IvyDad, sit down with your child, and ask what if they do commission you, but you don't get your dream assignment will you be happy?

Basil, I do agree, I am sure both of us would spend hours laughing so hard that we would be running to the bathroom while we share our stories.
 
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