ACL Injury during ROTC PT time

armyrotcmom

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My junior in college ROTC / NG SMP son sustained an ACL tear during his ROTC PT time. They had them playing dodge ball and he jumped and landed wrong. Confirmed by MRI and surgeon discussion this morning. Surgery scheduled for Dec 19 after final exams. Surgeon made it very clear this morning that son's past history on this knee (ACL tear Aug 2021 with full recovery and clearance by DoDMEB a year later) did not affect the tear this time. Rather, it was the jumping, twisting, and landing on one foot weirdly that tore his ACL. This surgeon is top notch in his field with lots of primarily football / athlete ACL reconstruction and lots of research into best techniques.

My questions:

  1. How likely is he to be medically disenrolled from ROTC / medically discharged from National Guard? While I know that there is always the chance for him to be deployed, his goal has always been medical school and serve his time as a doctor. He doesn’t need a perfect knee to do that. He scored 97% on ASVAB so I know they had told him as long as his grades are good (3.8 gpa in a STEM major) he could almost ask for any position and get it. Earned all kinds of awards and honors during basic training after his freshman year. He's 6'3" and 240 and has had one of best scores in his batallion for physical fitness in spite of size. Also has been one of fastest as well.
  1. How long does that process take and when would it start?
  1. If the process doesn’t start until after surgery or they say they need to wait….how does that affect his summer since he is a junior and he has ROTC training all summer?
  1. And I’ve read that his insurance may deny his claim since he was in PT at the time. If that happens what do we do? I don’t really want another surgeon who isn’t familiar with his knee to work on him but we certainly don’t have the money for his surgery either.
  1. If he is disenrolled / discharged we know he loses his tuition benefits and stipend but is there anything that would help pay for school?
 
I cannot answer most of your questions, but will provide some general details - key among those is to ensure you documented/ reported the injury as outlined below, and that you confirm options for coverage. Perhaps others can recommend specialized counsel too to help you navigate this, if you find yourself with a ROTC unit, university, and insurance company who all say "wasn't / not me" in terms of liability. Do you have an attorney in the family/ in your church, friend of a friend who might provide a consultation?

If you're injured while participating in ROTC, the process for handling the injury can vary based on several factors, including your status in the program and the specifics of your injury. Here are some general points to consider:
  1. ROTC and University Coverage:
    • ROTC programs typically have some level of support for cadets injured during training. However, coverage can vary by university and ROTC unit.
    • Many universities have health services that may provide initial care for injuries. Still, the extent of coverage for surgeries or extensive medical treatment depends on the specific policies of the ROTC program and the university.
  2. Personal Insurance:
    • Your personal health insurance often serves as the primary source of coverage for medical expenses, including surgery for injuries sustained during ROTC training.
    • If you have a personal health plan, it's important to check your policy to understand coverage details, including deductibles and co-pays.
  3. Military Insurance:
    • If you're a contracted cadet (committed to serve in the military after graduation), you may have access to military health care options like TRICARE, which can provide coverage for injuries sustained while participating in ROTC.
  4. Injury Reporting:
    • It’s crucial to report any injuries to your ROTC instructors and your university’s health services. Documentation is important for any claims related to injuries. Did you report the injury to the university, ROTC unit, DODMERB?
  5. Legal Considerations:
    • Depending on the circumstances of the injury, there may be liability considerations, especially if negligence is involved. Consulting with legal experts or the university's legal office may be beneficial in these cases.
To get the most accurate information, it's best to speak directly with your ROTC unit and your university's health services or insurance office. They can provide specific guidance based on your situation and their policies. Your son should ask his chain of command for guidance/ help- he should also has his National Guard chain of command for guidance. They've been through this before. Speak with financial aid/ file a fafsa, and speak with the university and external scholarship sources about scholarship options. Good luck.
 
My junior in college ROTC / NG SMP son sustained an ACL tear during his ROTC PT time. They had them playing dodge ball and he jumped and landed wrong. Confirmed by MRI and surgeon discussion this morning. Surgery scheduled for Dec 19 after final exams. Surgeon made it very clear this morning that son's past history on this knee (ACL tear Aug 2021 with full recovery and clearance by DoDMEB a year later) did not affect the tear this time. Rather, it was the jumping, twisting, and landing on one foot weirdly that tore his ACL. This surgeon is top notch in his field with lots of primarily football / athlete ACL reconstruction and lots of research into best techniques.

My questions:

  1. How likely is he to be medically disenrolled from ROTC / medically discharged from National Guard? While I know that there is always the chance for him to be deployed, his goal has always been medical school and serve his time as a doctor. He doesn’t need a perfect knee to do that. He scored 97% on ASVAB so I know they had told him as long as his grades are good (3.8 gpa in a STEM major) he could almost ask for any position and get it. Earned all kinds of awards and honors during basic training after his freshman year. He's 6'3" and 240 and has had one of best scores in his batallion for physical fitness in spite of size. Also has been one of fastest as well.
  2. How long does that process take and when would it start?
  3. If the process doesn’t start until after surgery or they say they need to wait….how does that affect his summer since he is a junior and he has ROTC training all summer?
  4. And I’ve read that his insurance may deny his claim since he was in PT at the time. If that happens what do we do? I don’t really want another surgeon who isn’t familiar with his knee to work on him but we certainly don’t have the money for his surgery either.
  5. If he is disenrolled / discharged we know he loses his tuition benefits and stipend but is there anything that would help pay for school?

I am assuming your son is a contracted cadet.

Need to confirm to better answer your questions.
 
OP posted in DODMERB forum as well, Moreno fo here:

 
I am assuming your son is a contracted cadet.

Need to confirm to better answer your questions.
Yes. Sorry, I thought I had answered you or maybe I did on the other thread. I didn’t know which place was the best one to post.
 
OP posted in DODMERB forum as well, Moreno fo here:

Yes, sorry I didn’t know the best place to post so I started here and then thought since he was going to have to go through the review again maybe it was better over there
 
Yes, sorry I didn’t know the best place to post so I started here and then thought since he was going to have to go through the review again maybe it was better over there
No worries! People here generally find stuff asked/posted. I was letting @GoCubbies know you answered elsewhere. They are a great resource!

Good luck to your person. Sorry for the setback/surgery.
 
My junior in college ROTC / NG SMP son sustained an ACL tear during his ROTC PT time. They had them playing dodge ball and he jumped and landed wrong. Confirmed by MRI and surgeon discussion this morning. Surgery scheduled for Dec 19 after final exams. Surgeon made it very clear this morning that son's past history on this knee (ACL tear Aug 2021 with full recovery and clearance by DoDMEB a year later) did not affect the tear this time. Rather, it was the jumping, twisting, and landing on one foot weirdly that tore his ACL. This surgeon is top notch in his field with lots of primarily football / athlete ACL reconstruction and lots of research into best techniques.

My questions:

  1. How likely is he to be medically disenrolled from ROTC / medically discharged from National Guard? While I know that there is always the chance for him to be deployed, his goal has always been medical school and serve his time as a doctor. He doesn’t need a perfect knee to do that. He scored 97% on ASVAB so I know they had told him as long as his grades are good (3.8 gpa in a STEM major) he could almost ask for any position and get it. Earned all kinds of awards and honors during basic training after his freshman year. He's 6'3" and 240 and has had one of best scores in his batallion for physical fitness in spite of size. Also has been one of fastest as well.
  2. How long does that process take and when would it start?
  3. If the process doesn’t start until after surgery or they say they need to wait….how does that affect his summer since he is a junior and he has ROTC training all summer?
  4. And I’ve read that his insurance may deny his claim since he was in PT at the time. If that happens what do we do? I don’t really want another surgeon who isn’t familiar with his knee to work on him but we certainly don’t have the money for his surgery either.
  5. If he is disenrolled / discharged we know he loses his tuition benefits and stipend but is there anything that would help pay for school?

I apologize for this long email, but I wanted to make sure I gave you my take on your DS unfortunate situation.

1. I doubt your DS will be disenrolled from ROTC and discharged from the ARNG. For the latter, he will go on a temporary profile and has up to 365 days to get back up to speed. The 12 months should be enough to rehab from a 2nd ACL surgery. Your son will be non-deployable while on the profile.

As for ROTC, your DS will have to work with the unit to stay in the program. The PMS can grant a 6 month medical leave of absence. Your son will need more than 6 months though, so another 6 month medical LOA (for a total of 12 months) is possible with approval of the ROTC BDE CDR. If your son is a good cadet, then the program will figure out a way to get to the "yes."

During a medical LOA, his tuition and stipend benefits will stop. IF he gets back to normal, then I believe the program can get a ETP to get his tuition retroactively paid/reimbursed. However, the stipend cannot be retroactively paid. The stipend is lost forever. Confirm what I just said with the ROO regarding retroactive benefits.

2. Are you talking about getting a medical waiver for the 2nd ACL tear, or ????

3. At this point, your son does not meet the medical standards (per DODI 6130.03) for accessions into the military because of the 2nd ACL tear with surgery.

Based on what you've told me on how he was injured, it is very possible to get a waiver for the 2nd ACL tear. A situation in which a waiver is very unlikely is someone who had ACL surgery a few years ago. He's walking around campus, steps off a curb, and tears his ACL. This type of 2nd tear in which there was really no trauma involved is not likely to get a waiver, but probably a higher chance of getting one than the Dallas Cowboys getting ring in the next few years.

It was clear that your son had some trauma involved. Granted, it's not like a trauma of getting tackled at the knee while playing football, but your son was jumping and landed wrong.

I think what will be needed for your son to get a waiver is the following: submitting all the medical records, to include the operative report, to the US Army Cadet Command Surgeon's office; getting a release from the orthopedic surgeon stating no activity restrictions or limitations; and some type of proof that the knee can withstand stressors (does he play intramurals? Passing the ACFT is a good indicator his knee is fine).

He most likely cannot go to CST in 2025. He needs to talk to the unit cadre and see he can get programmed to attend CST in 2026 and then get commissioned right afterward.

The complicating factor is he wants to attend medical school right after college it seems. This is the route I took (ROTC at a SMC + HPSP to a civilian medical school), so I am aware of the nuances involved with your son being out of cycle so to speak. This can be another discussion, but I won't go into it.

4. Laws affect what funding cadets/mids get while in ROTC. In other words, the "wrongness" of the system isn't because the Department doesn't want to take care of its kids. Laws are in place that prevent the Services from using Tricare, for example.

If a cadet/mid are injured while on active duty for training such a summer cruise or CST, then they are eligible for care at a MTF. Relatively new now is cadets/mids who are injured while on ADT during the summer are covered under Tricare just like a reservist is who is injured during a summer.

The black hole is when a cadet/mid is injured while doing military things on campus during the academic year. Many private insurance companies have exclusions that stop coverage if the condition or injury occurs while doing military activities.

Right now, cadets/mids are covered under Workers' Compensation if injured while doing ROTC activities on campus during the academic year.

I know that's not what you want to hear, but your cadet will have to go through the Department of Labor's Workers' Comp system if you want everything to be covered. The ROTC unit HRA will know how to start a Worker's Comp claim. It sucks, I know.

Does the previous orthopedic surgeon take Workers' Comp?

5. Can't help you here... loans? taking out a HELOC? That's a huge disadvantage of doing ROTC on a scholarship.

A kid attends a school like Notre Dame or MIT but can do so only because ROTC will pay for tuition. The tuition benefit goes away at no fault at all to the kid. Now the kid is stuck with a tuition bill that is astronomical. My oldest went to a USNWR top 20 school. When she started, tuition was $57K. By the time she graduated 4 years later, it was $65k... ridiculous.

Caveat to the above... admin issues are not my forte so your son will have to work with the unit PMS, ROO, HRA, etc... to figure out the way ahead. I am more familiar with the medical aspects.
 
I apologize for this long email, but I wanted to make sure I gave you my take on your DS unfortunate situation.

1. I doubt your DS will be disenrolled from ROTC and discharged from the ARNG. For the latter, he will go on a temporary profile and has up to 365 days to get back up to speed. The 12 months should be enough to rehab from a 2nd ACL surgery. Your son will be non-deployable while on the profile.

As for ROTC, your DS will have to work with the unit to stay in the program. The PMS can grant a 6 month medical leave of absence. Your son will need more than 6 months though, so another 6 month medical LOA (for a total of 12 months) is possible with approval of the ROTC BDE CDR. If your son is a good cadet, then the program will figure out a way to get to the "yes."

During a medical LOA, his tuition and stipend benefits will stop. IF he gets back to normal, then I believe the program can get a ETP to get his tuition retroactively paid/reimbursed. However, the stipend cannot be retroactively paid. The stipend is lost forever. Confirm what I just said with the ROO regarding retroactive benefits.

2. Are you talking about getting a medical waiver for the 2nd ACL tear, or ????

3. At this point, your son does not meet the medical standards (per DODI 6130.03) for accessions into the military because of the 2nd ACL tear with surgery.

Based on what you've told me on how he was injured, it is very possible to get a waiver for the 2nd ACL tear. A situation in which a waiver is very unlikely is someone who had ACL surgery a few years ago. He's walking around campus, steps off a curb, and tears his ACL. This type of 2nd tear in which there was really no trauma involved is not likely to get a waiver, but probably a higher chance of getting one than the Dallas Cowboys getting ring in the next few years.

It was clear that your son had some trauma involved. Granted, it's not like a trauma of getting tackled at the knee while playing football, but your son was jumping and landed wrong.

I think what will be needed for your son to get a waiver is the following: submitting all the medical records, to include the operative report, to the US Army Cadet Command Surgeon's office; getting a release from the orthopedic surgeon stating no activity restrictions or limitations; and some type of proof that the knee can withstand stressors (does he play intramurals? Passing the ACFT is a good indicator his knee is fine).

He most likely cannot go to CST in 2025. He needs to talk to the unit cadre and see he can get programmed to attend CST in 2026 and then get commissioned right afterward.

The complicating factor is he wants to attend medical school right after college it seems. This is the route I took (ROTC at a SMC + HPSP to a civilian medical school), so I am aware of the nuances involved with your son being out of cycle so to speak. This can be another discussion, but I won't go into it.

4. Laws affect what funding cadets/mids get while in ROTC. In other words, the "wrongness" of the system isn't because the Department doesn't want to take care of its kids. Laws are in place that prevent the Services from using Tricare, for example.

If a cadet/mid are injured while on active duty for training such a summer cruise or CST, then they are eligible for care at a MTF. Relatively new now is cadets/mids who are injured while on ADT during the summer are covered under Tricare just like a reservist is who is injured during a summer.

The black hole is when a cadet/mid is injured while doing military things on campus during the academic year. Many private insurance companies have exclusions that stop coverage if the condition or injury occurs while doing military activities.

Right now, cadets/mids are covered under Workers' Compensation if injured while doing ROTC activities on campus during the academic year.

I know that's not what you want to hear, but your cadet will have to go through the Department of Labor's Workers' Comp system if you want everything to be covered. The ROTC unit HRA will know how to start a Worker's Comp claim. It sucks, I know.

Does the previous orthopedic surgeon take Workers' Comp?

5. Can't help you here... loans? taking out a HELOC? That's a huge disadvantage of doing ROTC on a scholarship.

A kid attends a school like Notre Dame or MIT but can do so only because ROTC will pay for tuition. The tuition benefit goes away at no fault at all to the kid. Now the kid is stuck with a tuition bill that is astronomical. My oldest went to a USNWR top 20 school. When she started, tuition was $57K. By the time she graduated 4 years later, it was $65k... ridiculous.

Caveat to the above... admin issues are not my forte so your son will have to work with the unit PMS, ROO, HRA, etc... to figure out the way ahead. I am more familiar with the medical aspects.
Thank you! He's an excellent cadet with one of the highest GPAs and his batallion leaders love him and do what they can to help him navigate ROTC / SMP NG path to medical school. His surgeon has zero doubt that he will be able to get back to physical activities such as playing intramural / hiking, etc. Maybe not skiing like he's wanted to try lol but a very active life style. He is in much better shape now than he was 3 years ago and seems to heal well. He fuels his body well and takes care of it. This time the tear doesn't seem to be as bad because before he was non weight bearing and this time doc said to just not be stupid and wear brace and do PT pre surgery exercises.

I'm assuming he will try to get a waiver. He let his leaders know already...basically as soon as it happened.

If his surgeon doesn't take workman's comp right now, I'm going to ask him to do so. He's honestly the best doctor I've ever known and he is actively encouraging son in his pursuit of being a doctor (interests are cancer, trauma surgery and orthopedics leaning towards trauma after his patient care tech job experience).

Fortunately he attends a school where tuition isn't super expensive as he gets in state tuition at his school. If needed I can work my second job more / longer to cover my half of his tuition...I was just so close to getting to teach without burden of a second job. He gets tuition benefits through the NG....he wasn't recovered in time to do physical fitness test for scholarship his senior year so he went this route instead. On the timing (of potentially being discharged / disenrolled) I was more worried about....are we suddenly going to have to cover second semester tuition is more my concern. Surgery is scheduled for December.


**As an aside and different discussion, may I ask how many years you had to "pay back" for the ROTC/NG/HPSP? He's hesitant to go that route now because he's been told that he can't "serve" in NG while he's in med school and have that pay back part of his ROTC time. We just keep getting told different things that are then different than we can find online. Our original thought was he could pay back ROTC time while in med school and doing residency by being in National Guard. We've now been told that's wrong and he's looking at 15-17 years total service time if he takes HPSP route. Also has been told he has to do a military residency and he's worried about volume of experiences especially if he goes surgery. If you know any of those answers I would appreciate some insight.
 
... He gets tuition benefits through the NG... On the timing (of potentially being discharged / disenrolled) I was more worried about....are we suddenly going to have to cover second semester tuition is more my concern. Surgery is scheduled for December.

**As an aside and different discussion, may I ask how many years you had to "pay back" for the ROTC/NG/HPSP? He's hesitant to go that route now because he's been told that he can't "serve" in NG while he's in med school and have that pay back part of his ROTC time. We just keep getting told different things that are then different than we can find online. Our original thought was he could pay back ROTC time while in med school and doing residency by being in National Guard. We've now been told that's wrong and he's looking at 15-17 years total service time if he takes HPSP route. Also has been told he has to do a military residency and he's worried about volume of experiences especially if he goes surgery. If you know any of those answers I would appreciate some insight.
Anecdotal response... can't comment on the NG benefit (tuition) retention or loss based on your cadet's injury and recovery. My cadet was in a similar situation MS3/junior year of ROTC.

My former AROTC scholarship cadet, now Active Duty MD, was injured MS3 year during an FTX. Orthopedic surgery and physical therapy paid by the DOL Office of Workers' Compensation resulted in full release to physical activity about five or six months post surgery. A medical determination by the Cadet Command Surgeon to continue in ROTC and attend Advanced Camp seven months after surgery was granted about a week before the summer training after MS3 year.

Make sure your cadet gets a copy of the Line of Duty (LOD) Investigation required for the Federal Workers' Compensation case number. Keep it all (ER and surgical records, LOD investigation copy, ...) in a safe place until after military discharge or retirement. These injuries are relevant to future VA benefits eligibility.

Familiar with federal government bureaucracy, I got authorization from my adult cadet to communicate with the DOL OWCP Case Manager for treatment approvals that are unnecessarily time consuming. Except for emergency treatment, preapproval for care was required. No way my ROTC Cadet/student had time during recovery with physical therapy, ROTC commitments, research and premed classes to get the approvals.

My cadet never lost stipend or tuition payments and continued to attend ROTC classes, leadership lab, and PT on crutches. I have no idea if a medical leave of absence was submitted by the PMS to Cadet Command - I suspect not though. When released for limited activity they participated in physician approved physical training (ROTC PT) with a cadre member recovering from surgery.

The HPSP medical training pipeline and obligation are not for the faint of heart especially with an ROTC obligation too. You have to really want it.

... HPSP, ROTC, and NG service obligation is complicated/confusing at first glance. Have your cadet reach out to an experienced Army Health Care (AMEDD) Recruiter for the basics though verify the recruiters explanation. In general, soldiers can't be 'paying back' a statutory obligation (ROTC, NG, Reserves) while accumulating a new (HPSP or other) service obligation. There are some exceptions. HPSP is an active duty program. You can't be in the NG if on an HPSP scholarship because HPSP is an AD obligation program - you also can't 'pay back' HPSP in the NG. While on an HPSP scholarship students are in the IRR (Individual Ready Reserve) not in a NG or Reserve unit serving the typical one week a month and two weeks annually.

ROTC and HPSP obligations are consecutive not concurrent. At a minimum, if selected for the 4 year HPSP scholarship having participated in non scholarship ROTC, the AD service obligation is seven years (3 ROTC and 4 HPSP) after completion of medical residency - formally and legally it's a little different than that, but that's the simplest explanation. An AD residency/fellowship longer than the HPSP obligation (4 years) results in a longer AD service obligation. The long answer... When in an AD residency and fellowship you are actually 'paying back' your HPSP scholarship and accumulating additional obligation for residency and fellowship training on AD.

Your son is correct... he will be on AD about 17 years if he accepts the HPSP scholarship. It's a long commitment. Let's use trauma surgeon as an example. ROTC non scholarship AD obligation three years plus the HPSP obligation including general surgery residency and trauma surgery fellowship served after completion of fellowship. The calculation below makes a few assumptions... selection for 'straight through training' and residency/fellowship on AD.

1) Graduate Medical School - on HPSP scholarship in a Civilian Medical School in IRR not on AD
2) General Surgery Residency - on AD six years for most/all Army GS locations. 5yr obligation (Intern year is obligation neutral)
3) Trauma Surgery Fellowship - on AD one/two years - I'll have to research whether there are AD Trauma Surgery fellowships. 1/2yr obligation
4) AD time... 9-10 more years!!!! 3 from non scholarship ROTC and 6 or 7 from the residency and fellowship obligation

He can pay back his ROTC obligation in the NG while in medical school if he does not accept the HPSP scholarship. Some other military stipend or scholarship programs for medical school could interfere with simultaneous/concurrent payback of a NG obligation too but those would likely include NG obligation only.

Research, or have your cadet research a Reserve medical financial program called MDSSP as an alternative to HPSP if your cadet does not want to serve on AD. Some states have NG programs for medical school like tuition waivers. Another option is to serve in the NG or Reserves while in medical school to 'pay back' four of six years of the ROTC NG/Reserve obligation and pay for medical school with loans. The NG/Reserve obligations would be tough during medical school unless in a program that waives the 'one weekend a month and two weeks annual training'.

It's late.... sorry this was so long.
 
Each case is different, depends on how severe the injury is, and recovery after surgery.

For the 2 incidents of ACL injury in NROTC I’ve seen, both eventually resulted in disenrollment because both midshipmen were unable to run well after surgery (among other things). Both injuries happened during NROTC activities. Both were put on a medical LOA from ROTC for the surgery and recovery.
 
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