Advice for 4/C thinking of bailing out?

I really shouldn't. I should just go walk Buster and stay out of this. This has me again pondering why I try to make a difference here.

My son didn't even get in any of the four academies who recruited him for football. He never heard from West Point. Jeff Monken and Coach Ken were low level assistants at Annapolis during this process. I don't remember the Army coach and it doesn't matter. I won't go into the royal treatment and 50 yard line tickets to home games at Navy-Marine Corps Memorial Stadium and all that that implies. Coach Johnson was building top 25 ranked teams and my son didn't make the slate. He jumped around five different colleges before graduating.

He was chasing the sports dream which finally ran out. He got his degree though and entered the Marine Corps via OCS. He's a product of a mid-ranked state school and Brown Field. He constantly pushes that fact in the face of those who have a more pure pedigree but still do not measure up, and that includes officers more senior to him. He wanted to drop out of college more than once and enlist, and I was ready to drive him to the recruiter's office. It wasn't supposed to be that way. He was destined for greatness from early childhood. High school: captain of the football team, he still is the single season homerun king, was voted to be "America's Next Top Model" in those goofy end of year high school surveys for the year book. Remember that TV show? My wife and I were USN enlisted and she jacked him up and said, "No, finish college and then join as an officer if you still want to be in the military."

She got both our attention and I stood down and my son got his degree. He will put on major this year and is awaiting results of an education board to tell him where he will go for his first masters degree. That is not so special because all career Marines do that. What is special about my son is that he also wanted to quit like your son, but he had somebody tell him to suck it up and plow through. It wasn't me but my wife, his mom, who is the strongest person I know, and we both knew not to argue. The really special thing about him is he is considered the top Marine officer in his MOS, a real life rock star. He is on speed dial for three of the top generals in the Marine Corps. He has a "MOM" tattoo. He calls us every weekend unless he is too far from the flag pole. Speaking of, we only have seen him once and maybe twice a year for nine years. This is not a game your son signed up for so if after a just few days of misery he wants to come home, maybe you should let him.

My son didn't even get in. Geez, what an honor and privilege to take up that spot in one of the most elite schools in the world. Tell your son to suck it up or get his aZZ home and get a job. Those were the options my son had and he was scared straight into the badassery of the Marine Corps. Scared by his mom, the most badazz of all of us.
 
I think most parents find that their 4C DD/DS is less inclined to listen to Mom or Dads counsel. Makes sense; the SA tells them that Mommy-n-Daddy don't call the shots anymore. The DD/DS is an adult now and expected to act like one, (make their own decisions, and be responsible for them). Then the SA spends all summer (Plebe summer) showing your DD/DW that they can handle adulthood (at least the parts of adulthood the SA exposes them too). Toss in the stress that any 4C is under during the academic year, and it's not hard to understand a strong negative reaction to Mom's or Dad's "advice".

I was having similar problems offering thoughts, help, ideas, sounding board services for my Mid during her plebe year. She'd snap, shut down conversation, or just say "this isn't helping" and hang up. It's a small thing, but I made an adjustment in how I presented information and opinions to DD. I always gave her "my-put", and she often needed it. BUT, the first words out of my mouth are always:
A) an acknowledgment of her status and maturity ("I know this is your call, --but----"), and/or​
B) An acknowledgment that she does have experience and information that I don't have ("I haven't had the kind of experience you are having but----, or I haven't been where you are now---").​
I also use questions a lot. "I don't know exactly how things work there (ie she does), but why would they/do they ask you to ------").

Somewhere in that Plebe year I shifted entirely away from advocacy when talking to my Daughter. Since then I offer my thoughts/ideas; if they conflicted with hers, resolving or balancing my inputs is her job. I stopped trying to show her where she was wrong in favor of offering "a perspective" or experiences that might support a different conclusion---then I leave it. My input is oftern rejected when first offered, but it's funny how often my thoughts seemed to manifest in her ultimate decisions. This stuff seems intuitive to me, and I don't mean to insult anyones intelligence, but I have a brilliant, accomplished, and distinguished wife who hasn't figured out this simple change in how she talks with/guides her SA kid. Sadly, it's put DW out of the loop on many things.

If your parenting style has been engaged & hands-on, then "not saying much" is a bad answer IMO. So much changes for a younger plebe, and while their outward behavior maybe real different, kids don't grow up in a step function. They don't forget the defintion of what a parent is that you applied for the first 18 years of thier lives either. If you were always offering advise over the last 18years, a change to "not saying much" will be felt way deeper than missing out on parties with his buddies, and might make a homesick kid feel even farther away. You might be throwing a lot of Balls right now, but keep pitching just to remind him you are still on the mound.

Consider that things might not really be as bad as they sound. My DD always sounded like a hostile-witness when she called home from the Yard. Her voice would be low and mono-tonal. Her words were always clipped, she spoke really fast, and calls were usually short. When she'd spend a weekend at her sponsor parents home and call us she sounded entirely different. Just like my old kid, and I was the one trying to bring conversation to a close. Asked about this, DD said, "Plebes feel like they are under constant scrutiny on the yard"; you don't want to show weakness of any kind to anyone; you don't want to be seen as still attached to mom and dad, and above all else you stay "under the radar". This seemed to get better in 3c/2c/1c BTW, but on base, on the yard, Etc. your kid is never relaxing in a Lazy Boy just BS-n with Dad.

If your kid is like most DD/DS discussed here, you can expect joyful calls when he gets an A in Chem, Gets aviation, subs, intel, medical, or ship selection he wanted. Otherwise expect that short, low toned, call out of the hostile environment he is in to be made only when it sucks so bad he NEEDs to call home and vent. On the good days, when he is laughing about something his buddy did, you aren't on the radar.

Sorry, another thought occurs. One of the little things I did with DD that seemed to help, was to ask her at some point during a call "if any thing had happened since our last conversation that she thought was funny or made her laugh?", (it was actually a carryover from her letters home about squad mates during plebe summer). She started saving stories and observations that tickled her to tell me on our next phone call . She began vectoring me to videos of company touch football games, pranks from AirForce week, A plebe downing a quart of ranch dressing at mess, Etc. It gave her happy things to say to me on the phone. It had her holding onto some of the lighter side of goings-on at USNA so she could tell me about them. I think it also sent a message that I was interested in her experience at USNA, and how she was feeling more than her athletic or academic performance. Later on, she started telling me about Forestall Lectures/Programs she thought I'd be interested to hear about. She is in Grad School now and will report to Virginia Beach for service training next year------she still sends me Navy stuff she thinks will make me laugh. ------Wow, I hadn't thought about how valuable that first "Did anything happen this week that made you laugh?" question was----for both of us.

Just my-put, probably nothing you hadn't thought of.

Best of luck to you and your DS.
 
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I made the same transition on giving "guidance" and my kid thinks about it at least. That's all I really want to accomplish, to help make sure he hasn't missed an angle on something. It's a skill that must be, and can be, mastered
 
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I think most parents find that their 4C DD/DS is less inclined to listen to Mom or Dads counsel. Makes sense; the SA tells them that Mommy-n-Daddy don't call the shots anymore. The DD/DS is an adult now and expected to act like one, (make their own decisions, and be responsible for them). Then the SA spends all summer (Plebe summer) showing your DD/DW that they can handle adulthood (at least the parts of adulthood the SA exposes them too). Toss in the stress that any 4C is under during the academic year, and it's not hard to understand a strong negative reaction to Mom's or Dad's "advice".

I was having similar problems offering thoughts, help, ideas, sounding board services for my Mid during her plebe year. She'd snap, shut down conversation, or just say "this isn't helping" and hang up. It's a small thing, but I made an adjustment in how I presented information and opinions to DD. I always gave her "my-put", and she often needed it. BUT, the first words out of my mouth are always:
A) an acknowledgment of her status and maturity ("I know this is your call, --but----"), and/or​
B) An acknowledgment that she does have experience and information that I don't have ("I haven't had the kind of experience you are having but----, or I haven't been where you are now---").​
I also use questions a lot. "I don't know exactly how things work there (ie she does), but why would they/do they ask you to ------").

Somewhere in that Plebe year I shifted entirely away from advocacy when talking to my Daughter. Since then I offer my thoughts/ideas; if they conflicted with hers, resolving or balancing my inputs is her job. I stopped trying to show her where she was wrong in favor of offering "a perspective" or experiences that might support a different conclusion---then I leave it. My input is oftern rejected when first offered, but it's funny how often my thoughts seemed to manifest in her ultimate decisions. This stuff seems intuitive to me, and I don't mean to insult anyones intelligence, but I have a brilliant, accomplished, and distinguished wife who hasn't figured out this simple change in how she talks with/guides her SA kid. Sadly, it's put DW out of the loop on many things.

If your parenting style has been engaged & hands-on, then "not saying much" is a bad answer IMO. So much changes for a younger plebe, and while their outward behavior maybe real different, kids don't grow up in a step function. They don't forget the defintion of what a parent is that you applied for the first 18 years of thier lives either. If you were always offering advise over the last 18years, a change to "not saying much" will be felt way deeper than missing out on parties with his buddies, and might make a homesick kid feel even farther away. You might be throwing a lot of Balls right now, but keep pitching just to remind him you are still on the mound.

Consider that things might not really be as bad as they sound. My DD always sounded like a hostile-witness when she called home from the Yard. Her voice would be low and mono-tonal. Her words were always clipped, she spoke really fast, and calls were usually short. When she'd spend a weekend at her sponsor parents home and call us she sounded entirely different. Just like my old kid, and I was the one trying to bring conversation to a close. Asked about this, DD said, "Plebes feel like they are under constant scrutiny on the yard"; you don't want to show weakness of any kind to anyone; you don't want to be seen as still attached to mom and dad, and above all else you stay "under the radar". This seemed to get better in 3c/2c/1c BTW, but on base, on the yard, Etc. your kid is never relaxing in a Lazy Boy just BS-n with Dad.

If your kid is like most DD/DS discussed here, you can expect joyful calls when he gets an A in Chem, Gets aviation, subs, intel, medical, or ship selection he wanted. Otherwise expect that short, low toned, call out of the hostile environment he is in to be made only when it sucks so bad he NEEDs to call home and vent. On the good days, when he is laughing about something his buddy did, you aren't on the radar.

Sorry, another thought occurs. One of the little things I did with DD that seemed to help, was to ask her at some point during a call "if any thing had happened since our last conversation that she thought was funny or made her laugh?", (it was actually a carryover from her letters home about squad mates during plebe summer). She started saving stories and observations that tickled her to tell me on our next phone call . She began vectoring me to videos of company touch football games, pranks from AirForce week, A plebe downing a quart of ranch dressing at mess, Etc. It gave her happy things to say to me on the phone. It had her holding onto some of the lighter side of goings-on at USNA so she could tell me about them. I think it also sent a message that I was interested in her experience at USNA, and how she was feeling more than her athletic or academic performance. Later on, she started telling me about Forestall Lectures/Programs she thought I'd be interested to hear about. She is in Grad School now and will report to Virginia Beach for service training next year------she still sends me Navy stuff she thinks will make me laugh. ------Wow, I hadn't thought about how valuable that first "Did anything happen this week that made you laugh?" question was----for both of us.

Just my-put, probably nothing you hadn't thought of.

Best of luck to you and your DS.
This is such a perfect post. My DH worked out of state most of our kids lives. I was the go to. Turns out I still am. I am blessed that my plebe wants to share the good, bad and the ugly with me. It is a blessing and a curse. But ultimately it is his journey, his decisions, his outcomes and his choice. I am a great sounding board. Sometimes I just listen. A day later, I might float a devils advocate position. Let that sit awhile. But he is the one doing PT and standing watch and doing the work. He has to decide for himself.
As parents we are gifted the job of being a lighthouse for our kids. Point out the shoals and rocks and shallow waters, and then stand by, to watch the drama take place. The cool thing is regardless of whether they end up on the rocks or out in open water, they have invited us to be part of the journey. I am so grateful for that experience.
 
WOW! I have learned so much in this post! Thank you to the thoughtful contributors! I hope the author did too! These are rough seas to navigate - and I think I will refer to this post over and over again for words of wisdom when feeling like I am not doing the right thing to support my DS.
 
WOW! I have learned so much in this post! Thank you to the thoughtful contributors! I hope the author did too! These are rough seas to navigate - and I think I will refer to this post over and over again for words of wisdom when feeling like I am not doing the right thing to support my DS.
Same. I've saved this thread so I can reference these helpful perspectives and words of wisdom.
 
I still think I am recovering from my daughter’s time at USNA. (And NAPS). She would call and unload on me all her worries, stress, etc. and then of course I would be a wreck, talk to her a few days later and ask about it and it was like “Oh that? Yeah it’s fine”. LOL She had ups and probably more downs during the first 2 years. At the end of the second year, (3C year) she asked when deadlines were for the state school). I looked it up and saw it was about a week away. I could have jumped through hoops to make it happen but let her know the date and then deal with it or not. I wasn’t going to help her leave for a temporary issue and throw away a good fit long term. I would have supported anything she wanted in this regard, but she didn’t ask me to jump through hoops, so I didn’t. She then sort of just committed at that point and life got better. 2C year was good and 1C year she was a leader. She graduated in 2009 and is still in and loves it. Keep an eye on the long game and be a good listener. You don’t have to solve his problems. Just be there no–judgemental and supportive without solving it for him.
 
The key is to figure out whether a desire to leave is the result of a miserable day or week or really reflects a considered decision. There is no way to be 100% sure but there are some signs.

Does the mid / cadet talk about leaving only after bad days/events or also after something great happens?

If the mid has maxed the PRT, is getting great grades, has lots of friends and is doing ok from a military / conduct standpoint and still wants to leave, that seems more like a considered decision. If the mid is struggling, the better solution is to get help rather than quit.

Does the mid have a going forward plan or just "anything but USNA" (or whatever SA he/she attends)? Someone who has made a solid plan is probably making a good decision to leave.

Has the mid / cadet spoke to chaplains or others about his / her decision? Someone who has taken advantage of the "counseling" services offered by the SA and is still committed to his / her decision suggests it is well thought out. A mid / cadet who says, "I don't want to talk to anyone -- no one is going to change my mind" -- it may be true but if you're committed, you should welcome someone who will discuss the decision with you.

Can the mid / cadet articulate why he/she wants to leave? For example, "I really don't like the disciplined life of the military." Or, "Now that I've learned what my service selection options are (i.e., after 3rd class summer), I'm not interested in doing those things." Or, "I've come to realize I want to be a priest" (or nurse or marine biologist or something that isn't possible directly out of a SA, though may be possible in the long run).

Usually, mids / cadets who make good decisions realize it makes sense to complete the entire school year so as to get the credits for their new school.

Obviously, there are mids / cadets who are so miserable that they just need to get out of the SA. And some of those go on to success. However, in this modern world where there is not the "hazing" and "abuse" that occurred in the past, it's really a lifestyle issue. Encourgaing your child to be proactive, rather than reactive, is the best course.
 
I really shouldn't. I should just go walk Buster and stay out of this. This has me again pondering why I try to make a difference here.
+1 for DevilDoc!
I feel the same way on here lately… A lot!
Here’s what I’d add for anyone’s DS or DD (I’ve been there myself ). The pain is temporary. At LEAST finish the first year. No quitting before the first year is done. Still remember my dad wearing a t-shirt that said, “ Happiness is WestPoint in your Rearview mirror.”
 
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My wife and I had it 50/50 whether son would affirm....

I was watching credit card statement to see if ticket home was purchased.

Wife was combing pics of affirmation ceremony.

My opinion is they all just figure it out....for themselves.

Every, single one of them that chooses to serve is worthy of our deepest admiration.
 
I can truthfully say that for both my time at USNA and my son's time at USNA there were zero calls home/discussions with parents about quitting.
The circumstances were very different between he and I but the result was the same.

As a plebe, I was the classic screw-up and I attracted upperclassmen like flies and then academic year started and I proceeded to do pretty poorly. Years later when I told my now-wife about it, I'm not sure that she fully believed me until she started to meet my classmates and they have related the same to her. Anyway, the crush of upperclassmen who in the style of the old days, tried to get me to quit was extremely rough. My reaction was a stubborn digging in as I was decided that the only way I'd leave would be if I was kicked out. Gradually, I got better at the books and the rest followed. Post plebe year, some fun entered my life at times and I was able to use my visions of the future to sustain me through the tough times.

My son rode in knowing quite a bit more than I did and proceeded to stay under the radar quite well. Plebe year academics came easy for him and he ended up tutoring a couple of his company mates on a continuing basis. He did what he wanted to do and had fun doing it.

He never had any crises that I know of so I just return to my own. For me it was all about mindset - I expected it to be tough and I decided that I'd be tougher. To paraphrase the Marine recruiting commercial that came later "They never promised me a Rose Garden", I saw the Naval Academy as a huge test of who I was and was determined to make it through.

Like many USNA grads, I had a variety of roommates during my time at USNA but the two who I roomed with for over two years and I stuck together because we were pretty similar. One was an African American guy from a poorly performing urban public high school and he struggled with USNA academics and swimming. The other was also a minority from a different semi-urban somewhat crappy public school system and he'd already turned back from the class ahead of us. There just wasn't any quit among any of us and the end result was all three of us graduated and all did 20 or more years of Active Duty or Reserves.
 
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You say he is sensitive and easily upset?

I know someone who made a recruiting visit to a SA. They were being recruited to attend the SA. They stayed with the plebs from the team..

After the visit the report to the parents was——the most unhappy group of people I have ever seen in my life.

Plebs were advising the recruit not to go there. Be smart go to a regular school. Their job was to recruit the poor kid.

The recruit ended up attending and graduated. And I would bet that virtually every unhappy pleb who was advising the recruit to go somewhere else also stayed and graduated.

I have known a lot of SA students. Like grunts in the infantry——-they were constantly unhappy :)

Good advice above—— son you are serious about leaving ——start applying for school loans.

If they are willing to take out the loans the SA may not be for them.
 
The ones that truly impress me are the young men/women who are lower 3rd and walk in to start their 2c year with their heads up and sign that 2-4-7 letter.

"Coffee is for Closers"......................those kids are Closers
 
I really shouldn't. I should just go walk Buster and stay out of this. This has me again pondering why I try to make a difference here.

My son didn't even get in any of the four academies who recruited him for football. He never heard from West Point. Jeff Monken and Coach Ken were low level assistants at Annapolis during this process. I don't remember the Army coach and it doesn't matter. I won't go into the royal treatment and 50 yard line tickets to home games at Navy-Marine Corps Memorial Stadium and all that that implies. Coach Johnson was building top 25 ranked teams and my son didn't make the slate. He jumped around five different colleges before graduating.

He was chasing the sports dream which finally ran out. He got his degree though and entered the Marine Corps via OCS. He's a product of a mid-ranked state school and Brown Field. He constantly pushes that fact in the face of those who have a more pure pedigree but still do not measure up, and that includes officers more senior to him. He wanted to drop out of college more than once and enlist, and I was ready to drive him to the recruiter's office. It wasn't supposed to be that way. He was destined for greatness from early childhood. High school: captain of the football team, he still is the single season homerun king, was voted to be "America's Next Top Model" in those goofy end of year high school surveys for the year book. Remember that TV show? My wife and I were USN enlisted and she jacked him up and said, "No, finish college and then join as an officer if you still want to be in the military."

She got both our attention and I stood down and my son got his degree. He will put on major this year and is awaiting results of an education board to tell him where he will go for his first masters degree. That is not so special because all career Marines do that. What is special about my son is that he also wanted to quit like your son, but he had somebody tell him to suck it up and plow through. It wasn't me but my wife, his mom, who is the strongest person I know, and we both knew not to argue. The really special thing about him is he is considered the top Marine officer in his MOS, a real life rock star. He is on speed dial for three of the top generals in the Marine Corps. He has a "MOM" tattoo. He calls us every weekend unless he is too far from the flag pole. Speaking of, we only have seen him once and maybe twice a year for nine years. This is not a game your son signed up for so if after a just few days of misery he wants to come home, maybe you should let him.

My son didn't even get in. Geez, what an honor and privilege to take up that spot in one of the most elite schools in the world. Tell your son to suck it up or get his aZZ home and get a job. Those were the options my son had and he was scared straight into the badassery of the Marine Corps. Scared by his mom, the most badazz of all of us.
Wow. How did I ever miss this?? A nod to ‘post of the year’ nominee....
 
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