AFA Informant Program

[KPEngineer]

Statements from...

USAFA: http://s3.amazonaws.com/content.gazette/USAFA PA re Mr Eric Thomas.pdf

Seems to me like information on Thomas's disciplinary record would come under the Privacy Act would it not?

If he was such a trouble maker during his first Fr/So years and accumulated enough demerits to disenroll him then why did it take until his senior year? So basically the Academy's position is that Thomas was treated fairly because we are lazy leaders and didn't get around to kicking him out for over two years until just six weeks before graduation ... oh and just ignore that whole OSI CI thing.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Seems to me like information on Thomas's disciplinary record would come under the Privacy Act would it not?

That's what I was thinking. I think the "he was part of the program" is OK. "Cadet thomas started in 2011 not 2010 with the program" is OK. "Cadet Thomas was a horrible cadet who did........... and...... and ......" is well.... not OK. It may be true. But I don't think the Air Force Academy could release it. Discussion or prior disciplinary activity, that is all admininstrative... seems to be a violation of his privacy and by extension, a violation of the Privacy Act. But the other consideration is correcting the record. If Cadet Thomas put the misinformation out there, AFA has to try to find a way to correct it, as much as they can. They have to consider how much they can say, to correct what's out there, without breaking a law. Lawyers help with that (see sometimes lawyers and PAOs CAN be friends!). The closer the that line they get, the more hair stands on the back of their necks. I'm not sure which side of the line some of this info falls on, and I'd have to go back and read the articles again to see what Thomas actually said.


I'm going to bounce this off of a few military PAO friends who have a few decades experience on me, but this parallels a Coast Guard public affairs mess from seven or eight years ago, where the Coast Guard's hands were tied with what they could say while the individual was saying whatever she wanted. All the Coast Guard PAO could really say is "there's more to the story, and if Ms. BLANK allows us to discuss her history, we'd be happy to clear some of this up." Of course, she did not give permission (why would she?).

Maybe Meteor can answer that question, he knows everything.

 

[LineInTheSand]

So if I am reading correctly. They used this cadet and then throw him away after he was no longer useful. No payback was his reward for cooperating.

I'm all for letting sandbags go, so not issue there. I'm not sure if Cadet Thomas was any worse for it, a few more months of free meals? Then he's out the door, and wearing his Pizza Hut hat where ever he wants.

And then he wants some time in the paper... and now I think he's going to hurt his employment opportunities, as his transgressions were closed to the world (until the Air Force released the info, which I'm pretty sure they can be sued for).

 

[aseanag]

I'm all for letting sandbags go, so not issue there. I'm not sure if Cadet Thomas was any worse for it, a few more months of free meals? Then he's out the door, and wearing his Pizza Hut hat where ever he wants.

And then he wants some time in the paper... and now I think he's going to hurt his employment opportunities, as his transgressions were closed to the world (until the Air Force released the info, which I'm pretty sure they can be sued for).

I don't for one minute believe this cadet went along with OSI believing he would possible be disenrolled in the future for past troubles. He was used and there is nothing honorable about that!

 

[LineInTheSand]

I don't for one minute believe this cadet went along with OSI believing he would possible be disenrolled in the future for past troubles. He was used and there is nothing honorable about that!

Huh? Has nothing to do with honor.

Let me clue you in on cadets/midshipmen.... but the 3/c years they have a pretty good idea of what they can and cannot do. They've seen enough people kicked out, on suitability or headed toward the door.

My 1/c year I said a bad word. It started with the same word as "Fun" but the demerits that resulted were not fun at all. Part of this was the manner in which I said the word. I got a big Class II and a small Class II (it was higher, but I appealed, made my case to the Assistant Commandant of Cadets, and it was reduced). My MAX allowable demerits my final year was 150. I still remember that seven years later. For my Class IIs, I have a total of 45 demerits (had they not been reduced I would have had 60 or maybe 90... I forget. I just remember understanding if I hit 50% of that 150 demerit total (75 demerits) I would be up for a suitability board.

You think this kid, passed 200 demerits BEFORE being contacted to be an informant, didn't know he was on the way out? Newbies in their first year already know that.

Yes, I think using him hurts the trust of his classmates, but I don't base that on a concern for him, I base that on the impact of the vast majority of innocent Zoomies just trying to succeed and become officers in the Air Force, after enduring a tough education program at one of the five best service academies in the United States.

 

[AlexT]

I've kept quiet on this, but I'd thought I'd share a comment from another forum from somebody I highly respect that sums up my feelings on the subject.

"I have no firsthand knowledge of anything to do with the academy or being a snitch for that matter, but the way I look at it is that if you turn informant for (almost any organizations name goes here) and you think that the people you are dealing with have honor and will protect you when things go badly then you are stupid enough to be a snitch and that's the whole reason you were selected."

 

[aseanag]

I've kept quiet on this, but I'd thought I'd share a comment from another forum from somebody I highly respect that sums up my feelings on the subject.

"I have no firsthand knowledge of anything to do with the academy or being a snitch for that matter, but the way I look at it is that if you turn informant for (almost any organizations name goes here) and you think that the people you are dealing with have honor and will protect you when things go badly then you are stupid enough to be a snitch and that's the whole reason you were selected."

I agree.

No one like a snitch including the AF. But using 17-19 year old (Cadets) in this manner?
I would think many young adults that age would be gullible.

 

[aseanag]

Huh? Has nothing to do with honor.

Let me clue you in on cadets/midshipmen.... but the 3/c years they have a pretty good idea of what they can and cannot do. They've seen enough people kicked out, on suitability or headed toward the door.

My 1/c year I said a bad word. It started with the same word as "Fun" but the demerits that resulted were not fun at all. Part of this was the manner in which I said the word. I got a big Class II and a small Class II (it was higher, but I appealed, made my case to the Assistant Commandant of Cadets, and it was reduced). My MAX allowable demerits my final year was 150. I still remember that seven years later. For my Class IIs, I have a total of 45 demerits (had they not been reduced I would have had 60 or maybe 90... I forget. I just remember understanding if I hit 50% of that 150 demerit total (75 demerits) I would be up for a suitability board.

You think this kid, passed 200 demerits BEFORE being contacted to be an informant, didn't know he was on the way out? Newbies in their first year already know that.

Yes, I think using him hurts the trust of his classmates, but I don't base that on a concern for him, I base that on the impact of the vast majority of innocent Zoomies just trying to succeed and become officers in the Air Force, after enduring a tough education program at one of the five best service academies in the United States.

What I was trying to say was this cadet would have never agreed to become a snitch if he was not promised some type of immunity. Stringing him along until no longer useful and then disenrolling him is wrong.

 

[DHinNH]

If he was such a trouble maker during his first Fr/So years and accumulated enough demerits to disenroll him then why did it take until his senior year? So basically the Academy's position is that Thomas was treated fairly because we are lazy leaders and didn't get around to kicking him out for over two years until just six weeks before graduation ... oh and just ignore that whole OSI CI thing.

+1

I also find it interesting that the Academy's statement addresses whether or not USAFA "disavowed" Thomas. I've read and re-read the article, and I fail to see that accusation anywhere. The party accused of using and disavowing Thomas is OSI.

 

[LineInTheSand]

What I was trying to say was this cadet would have never agreed to become a snitch if he was not promised some type of immunity. Stringing him along until no longer useful and then disenrolling him is wrong.

You would have preferred them disenroll him and make him repay $100Ks? I wonder which he prefers?

 

[Pima]

Sorry, but I can't wrap my cranium around your comment aseanag

No one like a snitch including the AF.

If I am correct your DS is going UPT. This is a life and death career even during training. Actually, from a statistical perspective there is a higher rate of mortality during training than war time...sorry!

You are saying your child would not snitch when they showed up for a briefing at 6 a.m., and saw their peer at AppleBees drinking a beer the night before at 11 p.m.? You do know there is a 12 hr rule?

Should they be an out cast like you are inferring because he said I won't risk my life? wouldn't that qualify as a snitch? Do you want him to risk his life by remaining silent?

We are not talking about dirty purples, we are talking drugs, rape, etc.

Did the AF screw them over as a snitch? Yes, IMPO. However, I don't agree with your opinion about the AF and snitches. Their lives rely on following the code.

Like I have said, I think they got the short end of the stick, but as others have said there is more to this story.

My final opinion is this:
~~~ They were in the wrong place. They were not an angel to start with. They broke the code in the 1st place.

How is it we have lost site of this aspect in the 1st place? Had he not been at the party, he would not have been in the news.

He chose to attend. He had free will.

I support him if his facts are fact, but I see the AF side too. He knew it was not where he should have been when he entered through that door. The door that forced him to become a snitch.
~ If only he stayed home that night!

 

[aseanag]

Sorry, but I can't wrap my cranium around your comment aseanag


If I am correct your DS is going UPT. This is a life and death career even during training. Actually, from a statistical perspective there is a higher rate of mortality during training than war time...sorry!

You are saying your child would not snitch when they showed up for a briefing at 6 a.m., and saw their peer at AppleBees drinking a beer the night before at 11 p.m.? You do know there is a 12 hr rule?

Should they be an out cast like you are inferring because he said I won't risk my life? wouldn't that qualify as a snitch? Do you want him to risk his life by remaining silent?

We are not talking about dirty purples, we are talking drugs, rape, etc.

Did the AF screw them over as a snitch? Yes, IMPO. However, I don't agree with your opinion about the AF and snitches. Their lives rely on following the code.

Like I have said, I think they got the short end of the stick, but as others have said there is more to this story.

My final opinion is this:
~~~ They were in the wrong place. They were not an angel to start with. They broke the code in the 1st place.

How is it we have lost site of this aspect in the 1st place? Had he not been at the party, he would not have been in the news.

He chose to attend. He had free will.

I support him if his facts are fact, but I see the AF side too. He knew it was not where he should have been when he entered through that door. The door that forced him to become a snitch.
~ If only he stayed home that night!

Break the rules, then show him the door. My point is he would have never agreed to snitch if he was given a carrot of some type (immunity).

 

[aseanag]

You would have preferred them disenroll him and make him repay $100Ks? I wonder which he prefers?

Yes I would have preferred them to disenroll him and make him repay along with all the others that break the rules. They ended up disenrolling him anyway.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Break the rules, then show him the door. My point is he would have never agreed to snitch if he was given a carrot of some type (immunity).

I believe the carrot is he didn't have to repay hundreds of thousands of dollars.... sounds like a damn good carrot to me.

 

[LineInTheSand]

My point is he would have never agreed to snitch if he was given a carrot of some type (immunity).

You're basing that one what? A huntch? He called himself a spy. He seems pretty excited about.


You think this guys character is clear enough that he wouldn't want to snitch? Maybe he was a wrecking ball.... maybe he wanted to take down others too.

It happens. Let's not assign him sainthood status just because he was a young ADULT.

He also got out of paying hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

[aseanag]

You would have preferred them disenroll him and make him repay $100Ks? I wonder which he prefers?

We wouldn't be here discussing this he he was happy with being disenroll. Getting off the hook for repayment only strenghten his case.

 

[USMCGrunt]

This whole situation and the OSI CI program suggests the following quote is true:

"I don’t care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members." (attributed to Groucho Marx)

 

[LineInTheSand]

We wouldn't be here discussing this he he was happy with being disenroll. Getting off the hook for repayment only strenghten his case.

Ohhhhh.... I see. Well, if you can find me many folks who were happy with their involuntary disenrollments, I'll take that under advisement.

 

[aseanag]

You're basing that one what? A huntch? He called himself a spy. He seems pretty excited about.


You think this guys character is clear enough that he wouldn't want to snitch? Maybe he was a wrecking ball.... maybe he wanted to take down others too.

It happens. Let's not assign him sainthood status just because he was a young ADULT.

He also got out of paying hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I not saying he a Saint! I said he would not have agreed to stick around for a year and a half to assist the AF if he wasn't given some type of immunity. If he was as bad as the AF says he was they would have gotten rid of him immediately. Why did they allow a rotten cadet stay around and possibly influence other cadets. He had to serve a purpose.

 

[aseanag]

Ohhhhh.... I see. Well, if you can find me many folks who were happy with their involuntary disenrollments, I'll take that under advisement.

So if I am to understand your logic, he volunteer to spy for a year and a half so that he could later be disenrolled and wouldn't have to repay the AF.