AFA may drop "So help me God" from oath

Really? About twice a month someone comes to our door trying to tell us about their views on God (capital G Christian type, 1 each). Those folks never seem to want to hear my views on the matter. They are also never atheists.

No, atheists are the folks in the middle of good conversations that take offense to just about everything. I realize that's a generalization.

"I'm an atheist, I have nothing to stand on, and I am hear to attack what everyone else stands on." I realize that's a generalization too.

The good think, I believe, anyway, is, atheists have God watching out for them too, whether they like it or not, whether they believe it or not. That's comforting, for me. :thumb:
 
+1 MN.

I feel the same way. The door to door salesman and the religious person are doing the same thing....soliciting their product on private property.

scout,

A couple of quick questions for you.

As a cadet at USMA did they have the same code as the AFA?
Did you repeat the code or did you remain silent?
Did it offend you, and if so, as a cadet did you try to change it?

You are older, and like everyone else in the world you will hopefully grow until the day you die. Your positions will continue to evolve, and so will theirs.
 
Maybe there should just be a pause for the people who WANT to say it....

unless atheists just don't want to hear it...in that case, the atheists can spout off in a sound proof room (where they are most effective) and take their oath there.

See, I'm confused, they (atheists) don't want to say it.... ok, then don't. Are they offended when others do? If so, oh well, live with it, thick skin or thin.

Would an atheist be OK with service members INSERTING "God" if they chose to?
 
It's not really settled law as to if something like "so help me, God" is an Establishment Clause violation. Of course, on the flip side, it's not settled law that it isn't, either. Justice O'Connor, in a 2004 concurring opinion (i.e. not the holding of the Court), noted some examples of use of "God" in ceremonies that don't, necessarily, mandate a belief in a deity. The Marshall of the Supreme Court, for instance, says "God save the United States and this honorable Court," and "In God We Trust" is printed on our money. Witnesses sworn to testify in Court are asked to tell the truth "so help [them,] God."

I don't like to use so-called "originalist" arguments for interpretation too much (as, in many cases, it results in absurdity); however, phrases like "so help me, God" were around at the time of the ratification of the Constitution and have been in use many years since then. Justice O'Connor's point-and she was a moderate pragmatist in her judicial philosophy-was that it lacks significant meaning, in itself, as a religious affirmation, and is around now in what amounts to a vestigial sense. It would seem that it would thus not be too big a deal to get rid of it, but its current existence, at least according to her interpretation, doesn't rise to the level of a First Amendment violation.

If I'm honest, I can see your point to the contrary, and I'm not sure that I side with the retired Justice. Certainly, I don't agree that the removal of the phrase from a government oath constitutes some war on Christianity (or any other religious sect).

For what it's worth, I identify as atheist as well.

As usual, an excellent response.

As to the other point, it's not apples/oranges. It's apples and apples. The fact that person A is not put off by a certain behavior or remark has no bearing on Person B. "Get thicker skin" is the classic deflection used by people who know their behavior is illogical but don't want to stop. There are times when it applies in life, but they're rare.

Perhaps we should look at it from a different perspective: someone tell me why it SHOULD be part of the oath. Make that argument.
 
Naw. No reason to get people all lathered up. Leave it alone as we have bigger problems to worry about. The quote below says it all. :thumb:

Of course, if it's "what's in your heart," oaths really don't matter at all...
 
Look, regardless of your beliefs, the fact of the matter is that it is the honor oath at the U.S. Air Force Academy. Not to say that these aren't valid opinions or points- but YOU don't take this oath. It literally has 0 effect on anyone else what cadets choose to swear to. If we want "so help me God" in there, then it will stay in there. If we don't, then we'll change it. No one else has to live under it, no one else has to recite it. Don't try to tell cadets what you think they should say based on your own personal convictions when you aren't the one who has to live under it. That was the whole purpose of the oath in the first place: made BY cadets, TAKEN by cadets, UPHELD by cadets. If it is to be edited, it should be by cadets. Period.
 
In my case, I agree with this ^^. But for others, it certainly does matter. Hence, "it's what is in your heart" that counts holds true.

Not so sure. If I take an oath, and I believe the oath matters, that means I believe the oath is important to the rest of society. If we believe "it's what in your heart that matters".... well now, the value of that oath drops, considerably.

You and I take oaths. In my heart it means something, in yours it doesn't. If we zero-out the oath in "heart," mine means nothing. People relying on the oaths to mean something now have to question "is this oath real or not, based on the heart of the person?" That doubt means the oath I took, based on my heart, is worth less than the oath alone.

And if we can devalue the oath by all agreeing "it's the heart that matters" just ditch the oath and HOPE people act correctly.
 
Oooooh, ok. It's "true."

Unless you can prove it a lie. Why not? You're asserting you're right and Christians are wrong. If God looks over all of us, then what reason can there be to remove it. But if you can prove that there is no God, well, then maybe you can make that argument.

But that's on you. So feel free to disprove.
 
Look, regardless of your beliefs, the fact of the matter is that it is the honor oath at the U.S. Air Force Academy. Not to say that these aren't valid opinions or points- but YOU don't take this oath. It literally has 0 effect on anyone else what cadets choose to swear to. If we want "so help me God" in there, then it will stay in there. If we don't, then we'll change it. No one else has to live under it, no one else has to recite it. Don't try to tell cadets what you think they should say based on your own personal convictions when you aren't the one who has to live under it. That was the whole purpose of the oath in the first place: made BY cadets, TAKEN by cadets, UPHELD by cadets. If it is to be edited, it should be by cadets. Period.

That's just it, though. You say "we" as though you're a monolithic bloc of thought. There are 4000ish of you. Do you know how non-Christians feel about it? Or Christians who feel that God is a private matter and whose power should not be used to enforce an oath of man?

Again, I know it's frustrating. But it's reality. And as I mentioned, cadets don't actually own the code. The institutional leadership does.
 
Not so sure. If I take an oath, and I believe the oath matters, that means I believe the oath is important to the rest of society. If we believe "it's what in your heart that matters".... well now, the value of that oath drops, considerably.

You and I take oaths. In my heart it means something, in yours it doesn't. If we zero-out the oath in "heart," mine means nothing. People relying on the oaths to mean something now have to question "is this oath real or not, based on the heart of the person?" That doubt means the oath I took, based on my heart, is worth less than the oath alone.

And if we can devalue the oath by all agreeing "it's the heart that matters" just ditch the oath and HOPE people act correctly.

I followed your logic train and I cannot disagree.

Oaths usually take place during ceremonies. What is in my heart gets diluted because I am on stage and I cannot get "into" the moment because of the distractions. IMHO, ceremonies sometimes are more important for others than the people on stage (family and friends). So that is the broader point why it isn't in my heart.
 
Unless you can prove it a lie. Why not? You're asserting you're right and Christians are wrong. If God looks over all of us, then what reason can there be to remove it. But if you can prove that there is no God, well, then maybe you can make that argument.

But that's on you. So feel free to disprove.

That's such a classic. "My God is the only true God!" says the Christian. And the Muslim. And the Jew. And the Hindu. And...

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. I'm sorry there's no way to know, so picking one and making it part of a secular oath is ridiculous.

Fortunately, America is moving inexorably in that direction. Here's to leaving religion where it belongs: in the private sphere.
 
Because it's true.

Prove it a lie.

The opposite can be said. Because it is false, prove it is true.:wink: The reality is that is why people need "faith". There is no proof. If there was solid proof, then I'd be on board. Hence, there is no way to prove either points of view.
 
That's just it, though. You say "we" as though you're a monolithic bloc of thought. There are 4000ish of you. Do you know how non-Christians feel about it? Or Christians who feel that God is a private matter and whose power should not be used to enforce an oath of man?

Again, I know it's frustrating. But it's reality. And as I mentioned, cadets don't actually own the code. The institutional leadership does.

My honest opinion? I don't care all that much about what is said. I've never given it a second thought until the fuss started.
If there are people here who feel so strongly, wouldn't they say something and protest in effort to have it changed? Wouldn't it have been sent up and considered? The only way to change something you don't like is not to complain about it, but to fix the problem yourself- and I recommend that to any cadet who is upset by it. However, it's still the wing's decision- not just one person. You can't cry about it just because you don't get your way (and that goes for EITHER side).
Although you say we're not in control, I was forced to learn and absorb every ounce of history the academy has (which isn't a whole lot yet). One of the only things that I learned where we had the most say was (and is) the honor code and the honor oath (as well as our lovely mascot! :thumb:). The class of '59 made the code. In 1984, the Cadet Wing instituted the oath. Not the dean or the supe or the comm. They approved it, of course, but they allowed cadets to make the decision for themselves, because they(we) are adults and are on the track to be officers, hopefully capable of making some decisions as a team. Until it is proved otherwise, I have no reason to believe that General Johnson would take away our say in the oath.
 
Here's to leaving religion where it belongs: in the private sphere.


So here's a bit more of what I believe. I think everyone's path is private. I also believe that path has help and challenges from the people around you. The love of family and friends, the difficulty of hard times; they all play a part.

And while it can come off as judgemental or "holier than thou," many Christians are concerned about others. If I believe that you are better off in the end knowing Jesus and God, then I may be convinced that it is in both of our interests for you to hear about it. Like an acoholic getting help from a loved one, maybe it's good for you (the help), even if you don't know it.

I'm Methodist, which tends to be a little less "in your face" about it.

And I'll say, I'm certainly a sinner, I judge others when I'm not supposed to, I make many many mistakes, and I say and do things I'm not proud of. That's my "private" path and struggle, and it sometimes intersects with others, and their lives. I don't have it all figured out. I doubt. I question. I fall and I fail. Every day.

But that's all on me. I'd rather keep God in the things I do and the oaths or commitments I make. To me, whether I say His name or insert Him in my decision-making process, He's a part of it either way. Any maybe because of that, I am not happy about the expressed decision to remove Him (I already forget far too often what should guide what I do).

Does that mean you have to agree with me? Nope. Does that mean we can BOTH be right? I don't think so (although I know that is the politically correct thing to say). I believe at the end of the day, whether you leave a perfect life, or do everything wrong, or you're somewhere in the middle like me, whether you like it or not, you are a child of God and God doesn't worry about including you in His oath.

And from the tone of my post it might seem like I'm someone who's going to jump you with my beliefs, but I don't. I'm happy to discuss how I feel about things. I don't often apologize, and I realize some things I feel and believe conflict, but at the end of the day, I have faith that I'm at least partially right about this.
 
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My issue isn't how people use their belief or lack of belief in God in their decision making processes or how they feel about any related matters.

My issue is when direct supervisors tell subordinates that they hope that they have an opportunity to worship Jesus over the weekend or any other inappropriate behavior.

With some people (certainly not all), things like referencing God in the oath can blur the lines of acceptable behavior regarding religion and leadership. I'm not offended by the Oath, although I still haven't seen a compelling reason to reference God.
 
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