AFA may drop "So help me God" from oath

Everybody wins!
:yay::yay::yay:

also, the honor committee made it, but the Class of '84 elected to adopt it. :thumb:
 
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For what it is worth, we were talking about The Oath, not in the honor oath, in commissioning education the other day. While it is not the same one, "so help me God" is still said in the same context in both oaths. The officer teaching it explained it to us as just saying that we will not be able to do it all on our own and that we will have to rely on our faith, friends, family, etc. I realize this is probably just going to add to the fire because someone is just going to say, "So why can't it just read 'so help me roommate'." Knowing this does add some context to its purpose and the reasoning behind it. And, I would just like to stress again that it has never been a requirement to say it. We, as cadets, have been told since the day the honor oath was introduced to us that it is optional for us to include that last clause.
 
LineInTheSand said:
And while it can come off as judgemental or "holier than thou," many Christians are concerned about others. If I believe that you are better off in the end knowing Jesus and God, then I may be convinced that it is in both of our interests for you to hear about it. Like an acoholic getting help from a loved one, maybe it's good for you (the help), even if you don't know it.
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Please tell me that you are not comparing an individuals's deeply held religious belief (or lack thereof), which does not include a belief in Jesus as God, as the equivalent of being an alcoholic. Just take a moment and consider how truly condescending and offensive that position is.
 
Tigger said:
Please tell me that you are not comparing an individuals's deeply held religious belief (or lack thereof), which does not include a belief in Jesus as God, as the equivalent of being an alcoholic. Just take a moment and consider how truly condescending and offensive that position is.
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Tigger get off your high horse for a second and I'll explain.

Addiction isn't good for anyone. (Some would believe, not knowing God as "not being good").

Often an addict is in denial, either about control or the damage of the drug (including alcohol) is doing to the addict. (I would loosely associate this with denial or disbelief other things, in this case of God).

A family member or loved one sees the damage being done to the addict and tries to help, intervene or otherwise stop the damage. (This, in my analogy, would be a Christian seeing a non-Christian and trying to help).

Often the help being offered either is turned down, or not wanted by the addict.




If you don't like that analogy, pick something else... me telling you to go see "Gravity" because you don't know what you're missing. Or maybe take my CO on my ship who told me the 1980s "The Thing" wasn't as good as the earlier "The Thing" but when I asked him if he had seen the Kurt Russell version, he said now.

Addiction is an easier parrallel because of denial, damage and external help.

If you find that offensive or condescending... oh well. I don't have an apology for that.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Tigger get off your high horse for a second and I'll explain.

Addiction isn't good for anyone. (Some would believe, not knowing God as "not being good").

Often an addict is in denial, either about control or the damage of the drug (including alcohol) is doing to the addict. (I would loosely associate this with denial or disbelief other things, in this case of God).

A family member or loved one sees the damage being done to the addict and tries to help, intervene or otherwise stop the damage. (This, in my analogy, would be a Christian seeing a non-Christian and trying to help).

Often the help being offered either is turned down, or not wanted by the addict.




If you don't like that analogy, pick something else... me telling you to go see "Gravity" because you don't know what you're missing. Or maybe take my CO on my ship who told me the 1980s "The Thing" wasn't as good as the earlier "The Thing" but when I asked him if he had seen the Kurt Russell version, he said now.

Addiction is an easier parrallel because of denial, damage and external help.

If you find that offensive or condescending... oh well. I don't have an apology for that.
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There are no words to express how condescending and offensive your words and that analogy are. Seriously, I am beyond speechless.
 
Tigger said:
There are no words to express how condescending and offensive your words and that analogy are. Seriously, I am beyond speechless.
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If you are beyond speechless, I would recommend not speaking.
 
I dunno, but guessing that might be an example of judging others when you're not supposed to? :)


For the record, we all do it. Easy trap to fall into especially around a charged topic.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Tigger get off your high horse for a second and I'll explain.

Addiction isn't good for anyone. (Some would believe, not knowing God as "not being good").

Often an addict is in denial, either about control or the damage of the drug (including alcohol) is doing to the addict. (I would loosely associate this with denial or disbelief other things, in this case of God).

A family member or loved one sees the damage being done to the addict and tries to help, intervene or otherwise stop the damage. (This, in my analogy, would be a Christian seeing a non-Christian and trying to help).

Often the help being offered either is turned down, or not wanted by the addict.




If you don't like that analogy, pick something else... me telling you to go see "Gravity" because you don't know what you're missing. Or maybe take my CO on my ship who told me the 1980s "The Thing" wasn't as good as the earlier "The Thing" but when I asked him if he had seen the Kurt Russell version, he said now.

Addiction is an easier parrallel because of denial, damage and external help.

If you find that offensive or condescending... oh well. I don't have an apology for that.
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Are you serious? You are equating a Jew, or a Muslim, or a believer in any faith other than yours with an alcoholic? Alcoholism is a disease. Faith is one of the characteristics that makes us human. Please say I have misunderstood you, and you are not really a bigot.
 
secretagentman said:
Are you serious? You are equating a Jew, or a Muslim, or a believer in any faith other than yours with an alcoholic? Alcoholism is a disease. Faith is one of the characteristics that makes us human. Please say I have misunderstood you, and you are not really a bigot.
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You misunderstood, and if more people do, that means I wasn't clear.

Summarized down, if you feel like someone needs help, even if that person doesn't realize it, you may feel the need to try and help them.

I thought of this, abstractly, as another clear "I need help but won't ask for it" addiction.

Nothing more than that. Focus on the "need for help without realizing it" part and not on the "alcohol".

So, you care about someone's eternal soul, maybe you feel the need to "help."


I'm not equating other religions to alcoholics, just pulled an easy example of somone who needs help but not asking for it, getting help whether they wanted it or not.

Was it really THAT unclear?

Maybe it isn't popular, and remember, when this came up in the discussion, I was attempting to explain WHY things like this CAN happen.... a personal feeling of helping someone YOU view as needing help.


And THAT'S your free direct response. Create an account just to call someone a bigot, welcome to SAF. Maybe in your second post you can introduce yourself.
 
Tigger said:
There are no words to express how condescending and offensive your words and that analogy are. Seriously, I am beyond speechless.
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I agree, Wow.

His post is exactly why the separation of "Us True Bleevers" and the Govt must never be compromised.
 
Freda'sMom said:
I concur. Wow.

His post is exactly why the separation of "Us True Bleevers" and the Govt must never be compromised.
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Remember I'm explaining WHY people MAY feel the need to "preach" to others about their faith. I'm not saying its appropriate to do in the workplace. But, if people do feel strongly about it, maybe they feel the need to "save" someone is more important than what is appropriate.


Very literal crowd here today.
 
LineInTheSand said:
You misunderstood, and if more people do, that means I wasn't clear.

Summarized down, if you feel like someone needs help, even if that person doesn't realize it, you may feel the need to try and help them.

I thought of this, abstractly, as another clear "I need help but won't ask for it" addiction.

Nothing more than that. Focus on the "need for help without realizing it" part and not on the "alcohol".

So, you care about someone's eternal soul, maybe you feel the need to "help."


I'm not equating other religions to alcoholics, just pulled an easy example of somone who needs help but not asking for it, getting help whether they wanted it or not.

Was it really THAT unclear?

Maybe it isn't popular, and remember, when this came up in the discussion, I was attempting to explain WHY things like this CAN happen.... a personal feeling of helping someone YOU view as needing help.


And THAT'S your free direct response. Create an account just to call someone a bigot, welcome to SAF. Maybe in your second post you can introduce yourself.
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Yes, your posting was not very clear. It was a terrible example to use. I would hope an officer and a gentleman would see his way clear to apologizing for his insult.

Many people read these forums for their informational content without feeling the need to post, until someone comes along and posts something so provocative that they can't help themselves and must reply.
 
secretagentman said:
Yes, your posting was not very clear. It was a terrible example to use. I would hope an officer and a gentleman would see his way clear to apologizing for his insult.

Many people read these forums for their informational content without feeling the need to post, until someone comes along and posts something so provocative that they can't help themselves and must reply.
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Well, luckily for you, I'm no officer, and barely a gentleman, so I won't be apologizing.

Hopefully the post is clear now.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Well, luckily for you, I'm no officer, and barely a gentleman, so I won't be apologizing.

Hopefully the post is clear now.
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FWIW I thought your post was clear to begin with. Sometimes people look for reasons to be offended.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Well, luckily for you, I'm no officer, and barely a gentleman, so I won't be apologizing.

Hopefully the post is clear now.
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LMAO!

And I followed it LITS, but I also had the advantage of your clarifications.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Well, luckily for you, I'm no officer, and barely a gentleman, so I won't be apologizing.

Hopefully the post is clear now.
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And this makes you proud to "barely" be a gentleman? This is how you want others to see your Christian faith in action?

Is that clear for you?
 
Tigger said:
And this makes you proud to "barely" be a gentleman? This is how you want others to see your Christian faith in action?

Is that clear for you?
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You know what they say about pride, Tigger.

Never said I was proud. I did say I was imperfect. But in this instance, I think I'm right. I have more to be concerned with than sensitive posters on a website.

Is that clear.... For you?
 
LineInTheSand said:
You know what they say about pride, Tigger.

Never said I was proud. I did say I was imperfect. But in this instance, I think I'm right. I have more to be concerned with than sensitive posters on a website.

Is that clear.... For you?
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I believe I do know what you are referring to about pride. And may I say that you are providing a splendid example of it for everyone :thumb:
 
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