I could be wrong, but if you turn down an Rated position, i think you are done and cant apply again as a non rated officer. Will someone confirm if this is correct or not
AFROTC 2018 Rated Boards
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They told him he could accept it for now, wait and see if he gets bumped up to pilot and if he doesn't he can decline the CSO position all the way up to the day before he commissions. Of course he will then just have to accept whatever position the AF gives him.
This is true for the AD boards, if you apply on AD and are selected but you don’t accept the position, you are done. They like to tell cadets that it’s the same way for ROTC, but I would be reluctant to believe that. For one, the process to apply for a rated slot on AD is not exactly the same as it is in ROTC. The AD board is made up of rated officers who sit down and personally decide who does and does not get selected. Because they only have maybe a few dozen applicants each year, the board can afford the time to select candidates manually. In ROTC, the selection is based on a formula, and there is no human factor in play. I’d be willing to bet you the board has no clue nor really cares who did or did not apply for a rated slot in ROTC.
Pima
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From what I know Humey is correct. If they decline the CSO spot, that means they can't go up for the alt. board, in essence they will go non-rated ADAF. As an O1 if they try to reapply as an ADAF officer they will have to say that they declined a rated position in AFROTC, which means, or use to mean they will need a waiver from their Commander and on top of that the Wing King/Queen must approve.
luluarnold
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I don't know if this is the reason he didn't selected but his major is geological. Two cadets at my son's det did not get selected either and they were both geological. They were the only two not selected. My son got selected pilot. Just a theory..
Thank you Tex232 for your advice. I agree he should not take a position he wouldn't be happy doing as a career. He is now planning to just hold on to the CSO position in order to stay on the pilot alternate list, then decline the CSO position right before he commissions in the case he doesn't get a pilot slot. I just wonder what his chances of getting an alternate pilot slot is if he didn't get a pilot slot in the first place with his high scores. Smells to me of the AF doing what they have to do to get CSO's with STEM majors? Or am I being paranoid? I just wish there was a way for him to find out why with his high scores he didn't get a pilot slot.
One more question. Is he risking anything by waiting to decline CSO right before he commissions? In other words would he possibly have any better officer assignments if he declines earlier? And do you think he really is on the alternate list and would be offered a slot?
I can’t say for certain about him being on the alternate list or not, nor can I explain why he was given a nav slot and not pilot. However if he does wait to decline CSO just before commissioning, it’s possible he may run the risk of being thrown into a less than desireable career field (i.e. missiles). No one will be able to tell you for sure, so it would be a bit of a gamble, but my guess is that he won’t have much of a choice at what he gets and AFPC will just put him where they see fit. If he was to decline it now, he would stand a better chance at being put into whatever non-rated career field he wanted. Also, what interest level did he put for nav when he applied?
Pima
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I would be shocked if he is allowed to decline right before he commissions. He has to go for his flight physical as a rising 400, which is about the same time he has to go through his TS clearance. I never asked my DS when he signed his pilot paper work, but I have to guess that it had to be somewhere along the time before or right when he started his 400 yr.
I am going to be honest the angst I am reading over getting a CSO slot is a little disturbing to me because my DH was a WSO (F15E) his entire ADAF career (21 yrs). I don't have enough fingers, toes and paw claws in my family of 5 + pets to count how many times he came home and said I can't believe I get paid to do this! He loved his job. He at one time had thought about cross training over to pilot, but in the end he decided the risk for him was too high --- he loved fighters and if he went to UPT he knew he was not guaranteed a fighter.
What did he do upon retirement? He was hired as the AF F35 fighter requirements guy at the Pentagon. NOTE the 35 is a single seat, no WSO, but his AF resume was better than any pilot that applied. He was offered an F22 position with a defense contractor, which he declined. In a few months he will be attending the Eisenhower School for a yr. They only take 300 people.
Point is that being a CSO is not the end of the world. We loved the life. Our closest friend (their grand-daughter was the flower girl in our DS's wedding) was a pilot. Never once did they hold their nose up against Bullet. They were not an exception to the rule, but instead the norm.
Our DS is a pilot and we are insanely proud of him, but would have been just as proud if he was a WSO. In case you don't know a WSO is the fighter CSO back in our days.
FWIW, I have multiple friends with children that are AD. Here is the breakdown
~ Pilot F15E, DS B52 Nav
~Pilot F15E, DS Navy F18 Pilot
~Pilot F15E, DS F15E WSO
~WSO F15E, DS RPA
~ WSO F15E, DS C17
~ WSO F15E, DS C130J (us)
If it was my kid, I would say take it and enjoy it. They can apply later on before they hit the age limit. We had friends that did x-train. Guess what they all walked out with? Can you spell fighter? Simple reason why was the fact UPT was a breeze. They understood BOLD face, they knew how to do sims, and most squadrons when they are accepted for UPT will make sure they are ready...ie the pilots will mentor them.
I am going to be honest the angst I am reading over getting a CSO slot is a little disturbing to me because my DH was a WSO (F15E) his entire ADAF career (21 yrs). I don't have enough fingers, toes and paw claws in my family of 5 + pets to count how many times he came home and said I can't believe I get paid to do this! He loved his job. He at one time had thought about cross training over to pilot, but in the end he decided the risk for him was too high --- he loved fighters and if he went to UPT he knew he was not guaranteed a fighter.
What did he do upon retirement? He was hired as the AF F35 fighter requirements guy at the Pentagon. NOTE the 35 is a single seat, no WSO, but his AF resume was better than any pilot that applied. He was offered an F22 position with a defense contractor, which he declined. In a few months he will be attending the Eisenhower School for a yr. They only take 300 people.
Point is that being a CSO is not the end of the world. We loved the life. Our closest friend (their grand-daughter was the flower girl in our DS's wedding) was a pilot. Never once did they hold their nose up against Bullet. They were not an exception to the rule, but instead the norm.
Our DS is a pilot and we are insanely proud of him, but would have been just as proud if he was a WSO. In case you don't know a WSO is the fighter CSO back in our days.
FWIW, I have multiple friends with children that are AD. Here is the breakdown
~ Pilot F15E, DS B52 Nav
~Pilot F15E, DS Navy F18 Pilot
~Pilot F15E, DS F15E WSO
~WSO F15E, DS RPA
~ WSO F15E, DS C17
~ WSO F15E, DS C130J (us)
If it was my kid, I would say take it and enjoy it. They can apply later on before they hit the age limit. We had friends that did x-train. Guess what they all walked out with? Can you spell fighter? Simple reason why was the fact UPT was a breeze. They understood BOLD face, they knew how to do sims, and most squadrons when they are accepted for UPT will make sure they are ready...ie the pilots will mentor them.
He ranked pilot as high, cso as med, other two positions as low. He is regretting putting med for CSO but I don't really think that's why he didn't get pilot. I think you're right if he's going to decline it he shouldn't wait too last minute but I also know he'll be tempted to hold out for that possible alternate slot.
Pima
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I think he needs to talk to the cadre. As I stated before I don't think he is going to be able to decline last minute, unless you mean 1st of Sept. They are going to send him to WPAFB for his FAA physical. They are going to have him do a TS clearance. They will hold a non-rated board in Sept/Oct. There is no way in my opinion he can come back after the supplemental board, which OBTW is held after the non-rated and say, no thanks I want non-rated. There is no supplemental non-rated while you are in ROTC.
If my memory is correct, our DS had his FAA FC1 physical scheduled by mid April. He went end of June. His TS clearance interviews were done by mid July. His FC1 all clear and TS clearance came back by mid Aug. IOWS, it will be fast and furious now.
Additionally unless something has changed, you turn that slot down, it is over for your ENTIRE AF career. To xtrain you must meet a board. To meet the board, you must fill out the paperwork. That paperwork asks specifically if you were ever selected for a rated position.
Thank you for shedding some light on the fact that CSO could be a great career for him. I think my son intends to get more information on the position before he makes his decision. The angst is just because he has spent the last several years working so hard to become a pilot. He majored in engineering because he was told the AF likes their pilots to have engineering degree (when he was in high school he was told this). He applied for and received two scholarships to pay for his PPL and spent last summer accomplishing that. He has had a single focus on this goal since high school and did everything and more to accomplish his dream. He really enjoyed getting his pilot's license and was even more sure after flying those 80 hours that this is what he wants to do. The hardest part is that his scores are substantially higher than a lot of other cadets he knows who got pilot.
I personally dont think that putting medium on CSO is what caused this. My guess is that he wasnt going to get Pilot (for whatever reason) and he was going to get one of the other Rated positions. He got CSO because it was next on his list. If had put it as low they may have chosen one of the other low rated positions. That or they need more CSO and and he won or lost the lottery (depending on how you see it). He could have easily gotten RPA and not be on a airplane at all. So its eithe choose CSO and maybe have a chance to jump or decline the rated position and even if the AD boards dont make it impossible to go from non rated to Rated, the likehood would be very low that he will be able to do so. If he then more interested in a non rated position, fight to get that. The point is, it doesnt matter why and how at this point.
Not trying to sound critical at all, but that probably wasn’t the best decision if he only wanted to be a pilot. I’m guessing he regrets doing so now. But as others said, it’s too late to turn back the clock, so now he should just focus on making the decision presented to him. I’d put it to him this way: is there anything non-rated in the AF that he might enjoy doing more than being a nav? If so, then he should probably turn it down and shoot for a non-rated career field. If worst comes to worst and he goes non-rated but they won’t let him apply for the AD board due to turning down CSO in the first place, he could look into flying for the Air Guard (they won’t care whether or not he applied for rated previously), or possibly even one of the other services. As a matter of fact, he should look into the Guard right now if he has any interest in flying for them. Some Guard units are even looking for full-time pilots to come fly for them, not just traditional part-timers.
Bird12
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I agree with Pima completely. While recognizing that everyone is different, so it's ultimately up to each individual, I think CSO is a helluva way to go. I grew up by Mountain Home AFB and knew too many F15-E WSOs to not want that job as well. My first real AF mentor was an F15-E WSO, and when I was a kid I didn't even know the difference because I flew cessnas with him and his stories made it clear he had a thrilling job. I put CSO medium (and meant it), absolutely would have taken a CSO slot. Pilot was obviously high on my list and I'm headed to Sheppard in June, but at the end of the day, military flying is military flying. My current CC was a C-130 CSO and simply loved his career - just got selected for Colonel.
Again, I totally respect each person's preferences and process, but I know for me that I wanted to be a military flier badly enough that I would have taken any seat in the cockpit.
Thank you very much for weighing in. These are things he needs to hear to make his decision.
Pima
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You have to be careful here because of multiple reasons.
1. AFROTC is not like AROTC, upon commissioning you go AD, no option for Reserves or Guard. At this point they are a POC and have signed their paperwork for AD.
~ That means they need to be released by HQ AF. Does it happen? Yes, but it is not easy breezy.
~~ Mainly HQ AF has to agree to release the cadet.
2. Guard units do have openings for full time positions, but it is not like applying for a job at Apple. They too have something akin to boards. IOWS, they say the close date is 10/1/2018 than nobody is going to be hired before 10/1.
3. You have to apply to each unit. Each unit has a specific airframe. If you want a fighter, but your state has heavies, than you need to find a state that has a fighter.
4. Guard units are unique. Just like employers, it is a lot about networking. There will be applicants that are working within the unit and will do OTS. There will be pilots leaving ADAF wanting to do Palace Chase and will use their old connections.
~ To be honest, my DS will probably only do his commitment and leave due to the OP tempo, and will jump to the Guard. He found out he would be a Dad for the 1st time via Skype 3 days after he left for a 6 mo deployment. His baby girl is 15 mos old and he is deployed again for 6 mos. He has missed so much and is missing even more now that it breaks his heart.
~~ IOWS the Guard unit that needs a pilot has a choice...AFROTC cadet and send them to UPT for a yr or the pilot that has hundreds of hours and only has to send them to the airframe school house, which one do you think they will choose?
Just saying.
It does seem like Air Guard is a long shot, but I will encourage him to explore it anyway. What worries me most is that it looks to me like the AF is in need of STEM majors with high GPA's for CSO slots and that is why he didn't get pilot. And now they are dangling a carrot in front of him, telling him that he is high up (because of his high scores) on the alternate list for pilot as long as he doesn't decline CSO. But why would they allow him to take an alternate pilot slot down the road if they were trying to fill CSO positions with engineering majors? It doesn't seem to me like he has any real chance of getting an alternate slot. In the meantime while he is waiting and hoping for an alternate pilot slot his chances of getting a decent non-rated commission are diminishing (if he decides not to go CSO). Or am I wrong and could they have put him in the CSO slot for now but he truly is high up on the alternate list and really could get an alternate pilot slot? I just don't like the thought of him sacrificing a good non-rated commission for the possibility of an alternate slot if it's not real.
I'm thinking if he takes a non-rated commission he can do his 4 years and then go see if the navy will give him a pilot slot. Whereas if he takes the CSO position he is committed to a total of 8 years (2-training, 6 AD) and if the AF is short of CSO's they may not ever let him move to a pilot position. So he'd be 31 yrs old at the end of his service commitment, too old to try for pilot with any branch.
Yep. That's what I would do.
Pima
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I think this might not be the way to go. People keep talking about the pilot shortage, but forget to understand that this is tied to the airline shortage. The airlines have stated their frenzy is expected to end in 2022. The reason they are having the hiring frenzy is due to 9/11.
~ Airlines furloughed and did not start hiring again until about 3 yrs ago, or in essence 15 yrs. Most of the pilots that left for the airlines prior 9/11 were AD retirees or around the age of 42. They are all now approaching 65. The airlines knew several years back that this was going to be a problem and had the FAA changed the age from 62 to 65 for pilots.
Come 2022 the airlines will not be hiring at this current rate, thus, pilots at that magical 10 yr marker when faced with taking $250K bonus and stay for 10 more yrs or hoping they may get hired on at a much smaller salary will go with the bonus.
Thus, in the end you are banking that come 2024, really 2025 because the 4 yrs starts when they report, the military will be taking on at the rate they are now. That includes Guard units. Whereas, the reality will probably be like the 90s...they will be taking less on since their retention rate will be higher due to the airlines not hiring at the same rate they currently are at.
Now, if you go CSO it will be highly likely that in 4-5 yrs he will be able to xtrain.
~ 1 yr UNT/SERE/Water Survival. 6-9 mos airframe school house. 3 mos to get operational = 2 yrs.
~ 1 yr operational before you apply =3 yrs.
~~Typically the Wing King will give the number 1 support to the person that is there the longest or coming close to the age limit. It is not uncommon to have to meet 2 boards. Thus =4 yrs.
As I have stated before, at least in the F15E world when they even find out you want to apply for UPT, the pilots and command will start mentoring you so that you will be a success at UPT. While Bullet was AD over the course of 20 yrs, we knew only 1 WSO that did not get picked up from the board, and that was because they needed an age waiver (came in from OCS so they were already older when they started UNT). The rest all went and all got their pick of airframes, 90% came back to 15E, the rest went 16s.
~ All of them also left before the end of their 1st operational tour.
I also chuckle a little about going Navy. In the 21 yrs Bullet served, we never met 1 flier that left the AF to go Navy. However, there was never a tour we did without a guy that bolted the Navy as soon as possible and came over to the AF. Yes, this was during the same op tempo as today of 4-6 mos deployed every 18 mos.
~ What does every other branch call the AF? The Prima Donnas of the military. The corporate branch that works bankers hours.
Nothing against the Navy, I have an insane amount of respect for them because as Bullet and my DS will say it they never wanted to fly Navy for 2 reasons.
1. They like the fact that their runway is exactly where they left it when they took off hours earlier.
2. Carriers in an ocean is akin to a postage stamp on a football field.
I wish you the very best.
~ Airlines furloughed and did not start hiring again until about 3 yrs ago, or in essence 15 yrs. Most of the pilots that left for the airlines prior 9/11 were AD retirees or around the age of 42. They are all now approaching 65. The airlines knew several years back that this was going to be a problem and had the FAA changed the age from 62 to 65 for pilots.
Come 2022 the airlines will not be hiring at this current rate, thus, pilots at that magical 10 yr marker when faced with taking $250K bonus and stay for 10 more yrs or hoping they may get hired on at a much smaller salary will go with the bonus.
Thus, in the end you are banking that come 2024, really 2025 because the 4 yrs starts when they report, the military will be taking on at the rate they are now. That includes Guard units. Whereas, the reality will probably be like the 90s...they will be taking less on since their retention rate will be higher due to the airlines not hiring at the same rate they currently are at.
Now, if you go CSO it will be highly likely that in 4-5 yrs he will be able to xtrain.
~ 1 yr UNT/SERE/Water Survival. 6-9 mos airframe school house. 3 mos to get operational = 2 yrs.
~ 1 yr operational before you apply =3 yrs.
~~Typically the Wing King will give the number 1 support to the person that is there the longest or coming close to the age limit. It is not uncommon to have to meet 2 boards. Thus =4 yrs.
As I have stated before, at least in the F15E world when they even find out you want to apply for UPT, the pilots and command will start mentoring you so that you will be a success at UPT. While Bullet was AD over the course of 20 yrs, we knew only 1 WSO that did not get picked up from the board, and that was because they needed an age waiver (came in from OCS so they were already older when they started UNT). The rest all went and all got their pick of airframes, 90% came back to 15E, the rest went 16s.
~ All of them also left before the end of their 1st operational tour.
I also chuckle a little about going Navy. In the 21 yrs Bullet served, we never met 1 flier that left the AF to go Navy. However, there was never a tour we did without a guy that bolted the Navy as soon as possible and came over to the AF. Yes, this was during the same op tempo as today of 4-6 mos deployed every 18 mos.
~ What does every other branch call the AF? The Prima Donnas of the military. The corporate branch that works bankers hours.
Nothing against the Navy, I have an insane amount of respect for them because as Bullet and my DS will say it they never wanted to fly Navy for 2 reasons.
1. They like the fact that their runway is exactly where they left it when they took off hours earlier.
2. Carriers in an ocean is akin to a postage stamp on a football field.
I wish you the very best.
Pima
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What is his major? I know for several years they allowed only 5% of EEs to go rated since they were deemed critical manning. NOTE I said rated, not just pilot.
~ IOWS, it might be that his score was high enough to go rated, but because they only take so many percentage wise he moved down to the CSO.
The last I knew was that alternate is OML, which means his major has no impact, it is a line number. IOWS if he is number 15, and 15 do not pass the FAA physical or fail school, etc he will move from CSO to Pilot. It is not unusual for 15, 20, 25% of UPT selects to not pass the FAA FC1.
~ When DS went to WPAFB for his FC1, he was in a group that did not pass the EKG. There were 20-25 of them out of 100 doing the exams. They sent them the next day for an EEG. He passed, but 5 did not. There was a cadet at his det that did Lasik and his eyes still were no good for UPT.
~ Bullet went for his and they said his scoliosis was DQ for rated. His folks took him to a renown scoliosis specialist at Cedars Sinai, and the AF accepted it and gave him a waiver, but that paperwork did not come down until Jan/Feb his sr. yr. Had they not waived it, somebody else on the alt. list would have been given his slot.
I think you are confusing the alternate board with being a CSO AND an alternate pilot on this list.
Just saying you would be surprised how often people move off that alternate list before they commission. I am not saying take that CSO, but as the CoC stated if he does not sign the paperwork, than it is over for him.
I am not sure CSO is a good fit for him. I mean this with the utmost kindness, but I think he has what fliers call single seat mentality. He sees it as a 2nd class citizen, and not a peer. If not that it is his follow on career which everyone in the AF flying world calls being a bus driver in the sky (SWA, United, Delta, etc)
~ F15Es cannot do their mission with just the pilot, which is why the pilots respect the WSO.
I think he needs to really see the bigger picture. As I stated before Bullet is the only AF GS selected to go to National Defense University (Eisenhower School) out of the entire Pentagon. He is the go to guy for any fighter/bomber regarding procurement and requirements, including the 15, 16, 22 and 35 all single seats.
~ He will be doing his last TDY in his position prior to starting NDU in May. He is going to Australia because they also purchased the 35. He has gone there every other yr. He has gone to Israel, they too will have the 35. He has gone to Germany. He just returned from TX.
~~ Just saying his 2nd career is not as exciting as flying an F15E in Alaska, but he still has that connection.
His peer out of England (F111 WSO) originally started flying a desk (engineer) got a nav slot and took it as a young Captain. Since he was an engineer major he applied for test school, and got it. He eventually applied and got NASA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_T._Good
I do get the angst, truly I do. If he truly will hate being a CSO, than decline the position.