AFROTC contract dilemma

[Tex232]

I am in my 800 year and received a pilot slot last spring. When I was at Wright Patterson, I was found medically dq'd for a certain eye condition they said was not waiverable. It's a long story, but I was told by several civilian eye doctors whom I visited (one who is also a USAFR flight surgeon) that I should have been found medically qualified in their opinions and that I was unfairly dq'd. I tried to no avail to get a second look by the AF and a receive a waiver for my situation, but they dug their heels in and refused to reconsider. Now I have been told I'll be going in as a space officer when I commission.

In the meantime, I've been looking into the Navy OCS program to see if I could possibly fly for the Navy. They told me that I looked to be competitive based on my grades, leadership exp., etc. and that they would like me to apply for OCS next semester when I come closer to graduating. I spoke with my commander about getting a release from my contract and paying back my ROTC scholarship that I was on for the last 2 and a half years (I haven't been on scholarship for my 800 year). He emailed the AFROTC deputy registrar several weeks ago inquiring about scholarship recoupment and today they replied that the "default" is for POC cadets to be called EAD for 2-4 years, and that this is DoD and AF policy. My question is, is this really true, or are they just trying to railroad me so they can get their money's worth? I know the AF gets to decide whether or not to make you pay or enlist, but I hardly ever hear of cadets being called to enlist, and I've known several POC cadets at my det were able to leave with no penalty for reasons far less substantial than my own. Granted, they were not on scholarship, but I'm willing to pay back any and all of the funds the AF gave me, including my stipend money if I had to.

Honestly, all I ever wanted to do was fly for the military. I made that clear to my commander and that I'd be more than willing to jump services if the Navy or another branch would let me fly, and he understood. I have no interest in being a space officer, and I'm frankly more than a little angry that the AF won't play ball with me and let me pay the $$ back. I'm starting to see where the priorities of the AF lie, and it this rate I would honestly rather serve in a different branch even if I couldn't fly.

 

[Pima]

I get your anger, but honestly did you miss the "NEEDS of the AF come 1st" brain pounding over the last 2 1/2 yrs?

The AF is saying quite frankly you go Space or you will enlist.
~ I agree they are holding you hostage, but that is the reality you faced when you signed as a POC.

I also would take the recruiter for Navy with a grain of salt. Recruiters jobs are tied to how many they recruit. They may say you look competitive, but did you ask them if they understand that you busted the FAA FC1 flight physical?
~FAA FC1 is key here. The AF is more lenient impo regarding eye sight than the Navy when it comes to vision. JMPO!
~ That physical was not DoDMERB to see if you can serve, that was to see if you met the FAA standards.
~~ DS had his own scare at WPAFB. They made him do an EEG because he failed the EKG for the FAA stds. Passed that and just like you met with an ADAF flight surgeon as his final exam.

Sure, you look competitive for OCS, but your goal is flying, is it not? If so, than go back and say...I busted the FAA FC1 for this code, will you still give me a rated slot?
~ If the answer is no, would you still go Navy over Space in the AF?

The AF right now has way too many in their pipeline for UPT without medical conditions that they can push through. The wait time to start UPT for the last 3+ yrs has been close to 1 yr after commissioning, that is just how backlogged they are, thus clearing you out is not going to kill them...sorry! Reality is they have alts. that need no waiver.
~ Meanwhile cyber and space is critical manning and hence why they are playing this out in the way they are. JMPO and with $2.06 you get a small coffee.

In the end the fact is they OWN you, and have for 2+ yrs, once you signed that scholarship paperwork and became a POC. You can scream from the rooftops, but unless you are willing to pay for a military attorney and fight it, than I would accept it.
~ If you hire an attorney, be prepared to understand that this is going to go up the chain as high as you can imagine...IE SECAF, and you will have to defend/explain why this is so unfair or a hardship. Rarely...1 in 1000 cases impo do they back down...Odds are against you and now you pd thousands of dollars with no win for you,
~~ Just me, but I don't see the defense. You signed and agreed that you would serve the NEEDS of the AF as an adult. Nothing in that paperwork said you would get a pilot slot, right?
~~ Is the Navy saying you have been cleared for rated or just OCS? Big difference. If the answer is OCS only and not guaranteed flying than you need to defend why they should release you from AFROTC for the Navy as a non-rated officer.

I agree that this is the 1st time I ever saw them say serving as enlisted is their payback option. I believe why is because it causes bad morale...the I got screwed and forced into this issue. However, it doesn't matter what my opinion is, nor if you or I believe this is good for morale, it comes down to the same old thing...SERVICE BEFORE SELF, they OWN you, and YOU signed on that dotted line.

FWIW, going to UPT and winging are 2 different things also. The success rate (winging) out of UPT is about 50% from start to finish if you do not have a PPL.
~ DS went to IFS, just short of getting his PPL. College happened before he could complete the last stage (xcountry for PPL, but had solo'd). Entered IFS with 28. 21 moved on to UPT.
~~ Phase 1 (T1) he started with 28 again. Again 21 made it through to tracking (T6/38). 7 washbacks were placed back into his tracking phase, bringing it back to 28 again.
~~~ Assignment night they were back to 21 again. His best friend from his AFROTC det was in his class, and that guy washed out 3 weeks before winging, he is now cyber. Another friend that went to Columbus busted out at IFT, now IFS (friendlier and kinder). She is now an Intel officer.

Do the Math. Let's say you didn't bust the FAA FC1, but were 1 of the 50% that did not wing, and they said you go Space, what would you do? The answer is the same...you serve the AF.

 

[pv123]

If you don't have your DET Commander "going to bat" and fighting for you... I can understand the panic. Pima and I were dependent spouses for over 20 yrs. After 25 yrs surrounded by fighter pilots, I've heard too many stories of pilots being dq'd...some were justified and some were just plain idiotic. Some were appealed because they had superiors fight for them, and it worked! I hope you have people to fight for you. Good Luck. I hope you get that "second look".

 

[Tex232]

I get your anger, but honestly did you miss the "NEEDS of the AF come 1st" brain pounding over the last 2 1/2 yrs?

The AF is saying quite frankly you go Space or you will enlist.
~ I agree they are holding you hostage, but that is the reality you faced when you signed as a POC.

I also would take the recruiter for Navy with a grain of salt. Recruiters jobs are tied to how many they recruit. They may say you look competitive, but did you ask them if they understand that you busted the FAA FC1 flight physical?
~FAA FC1 is key here. The AF is more lenient impo regarding eye sight than the Navy when it comes to vision. JMPO!
~ That physical was not DoDMERB to see if you can serve, that was to see if you met the FAA standards.
~~ DS had his own scare at WPAFB. They made him do an EEG because he failed the EKG for the FAA stds. Passed that and just like you met with an ADAF flight surgeon as his final exam.

Sure, you look competitive for OCS, but your goal is flying, is it not? If so, than go back and say...I busted the FAA FC1 for this code, will you still give me a rated slot?
~ If the answer is no, would you still go Navy over Space in the AF?

The AF right now has way too many in their pipeline for UPT without medical conditions that they can push through. The wait time to start UPT for the last 3+ yrs has been close to 1 yr after commissioning, that is just how backlogged they are, thus clearing you out is not going to kill them...sorry! Reality is they have alts. that need no waiver.
~ Meanwhile cyber and space is critical manning and hence why they are playing this out in the way they are. JMPO and with $2.06 you get a small coffee.

In the end the fact is they OWN you, and have for 2+ yrs, once you signed that scholarship paperwork and became a POC. You can scream from the rooftops, but unless you are willing to pay for a military attorney and fight it, than I would accept it.
~ If you hire an attorney, be prepared to understand that this is going to go up the chain as high as you can imagine...IE SECAF, and you will have to defend/explain why this is so unfair or a hardship. Rarely...1 in 1000 cases impo do they back down...Odds are against you and now you pd thousands of dollars with no win for you,
~~ Just me, but I don't see the defense. You signed and agreed that you would serve the NEEDS of the AF as an adult. Nothing in that paperwork said you would get a pilot slot, right?
~~ Is the Navy saying you have been cleared for rated or just OCS? Big difference. If the answer is OCS only and not guaranteed flying than you need to defend why they should release you from AFROTC for the Navy as a non-rated officer.

I agree that this is the 1st time I ever saw them say serving as enlisted is their payback option. I believe why is because it causes bad morale...the I got screwed and forced into this issue. However, it doesn't matter what my opinion is, nor if you or I believe this is good for morale, it comes down to the same old thing...SERVICE BEFORE SELF, they OWN you, and YOU signed on that dotted line.

FWIW, going to UPT and winging are 2 different things also. The success rate (winging) out of UPT is about 50% from start to finish if you do not have a PPL.
~ DS went to IFS, just short of getting his PPL. College happened before he could complete the last stage (xcountry for PPL, but had solo'd). Entered IFS with 28. 21 moved on to UPT.
~~ Phase 1 (T1) he started with 28 again. Again 21 made it through to tracking (T6/38). 7 washbacks were placed back into his tracking phase, bringing it back to 28 again.
~~~ Assignment night they were back to 21 again. His best friend from his AFROTC det was in his class, and that guy washed out 3 weeks before winging, he is now cyber. Another friend that went to Columbus busted out at IFT, now IFS (friendlier and kinder). She is now an Intel officer.

Do the Math. Let's say you didn't bust the FAA FC1, but were 1 of the 50% that did not wing, and they said you go Space, what would you do? The answer is the same...you serve the AF.

Contract and everything else considered, I still don't see the need to punish me for not wanting to commission. It's not as if I'm telling them to let me out without paying them back. They're basically saying they'd rather force me into the AF against my will and have someone that just does an average job at best, than get their money returned to them no questions asked. I'd be wasting my time with the AF and they'd be wasting their time with me. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[Capt MJ]

Contract and everything else considered, I still don't see the need to punish me for not wanting to commission. It's not as if I'm telling them to let me out without paying them back. They're basically saying they'd rather force me into the AF against my will and have someone that just does an average job at best, than get their money returned to them no questions asked. I'd be wasting my time with the AF and they'd be wasting their time with me. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Though I recognize for you, personally, this is a difficult situation, I was disappointed to see you have already decided to do "an average job at best," if you are required to serve in the AF. You must have brains and drive to get this far in ROTC, and if you find yourself serving as a Space Officer or enlisted member, it sounds like you would not make the best of the situation and lead your Airmen/be an Airman as well as you could. As a start to your working life, in or out of uniform, that is not the best foundation.

If the chain of command does not work out as a path to resolution, as a last resort, you could consult an attorney who specializes in ROTC and SA separations, paybacks, health DQs. They are usually former military JAGs. Google:
"military defense ROTC disenrollment lawyers." Sample search result: http://www.domeklaw.com/success-stories.html

There are also attorneys who specialize in military medical DQ rulings.

I am not making any recommendations for or against going these routes, or endorsing any firm in particular, just adding in the option.

Attack this with a professional manner and clear head, setting emotion aside, marshaling facts and figuring out the path. Your demeanor will go a long way in getting people to help you. If you manage to resolve the med DQ from an acceptable second opinion, your COC is going to have to say "Cadet X has been super through all this, with a great attitude, hasn't missed a beat in performance, let's go to bat for him/her to get that pilot slot back." The key to setting up that atmosphere is you, your words, your actions, your attitude.