AFROTC LEAD (Field Training) Bag Drag

mil.intel

Member
Hi all,

I'll be going to LEAD this summer and have a bag drag coming up next week. Aside from the listed required items, what do y'all recommend? (Especially if you have been to FT in the previous years)

Thanks!
 
I'm guessing that my DS would recommend a solid lock AND well-thought and executed method for tightly closing and locking your bag. DS completed field training last summer and told us there was a Flight Training Officer or CTA working rather hard to pull something out of his bag upon arrival. While DS was, others were not as fortunate. Since DS will be a CTA this summer, I'm sure he will pay it forward if given the chance.
 
Are there any places where we can get pictures and updates from this years LEAD? A friend had her son at Boot Camp for Marines and there was a parents facebook page. Anything like that for LEAD?
 

Sled

Member
I've never heard of anything. It's so short that I personally don't feel it's needed or practical but they should get a link to a whole dropbox of pictures when they leave. We have hundreds.
 

Humey

Member
My son went last year and it was an experience. It is one of those thing where its hell being there but when its over you were glad you went. They seem to make it shorter every year. I think it was 3 days shorter this year and my son was told that there would be no yelling this year. I have never been and dont know if I could even handle it, but it seems from I have read from people who have attended previous years, that they have been watering down the program for several years now I dont necessarily mean watering in a negative way, but the boot camp experience has been toned down.

As for pictures and video, someone after its over, will post a video and tons of pictures. I think it is organized among themselves. Since they arent allowed to carry their phones, never understood who was taking the pictures.
 

Phyzix

5-Year Member
Wasn't bad at all. Honestly, I had a lot of fun because of my flight and would definitely do it again if I had to!

I wish they made it harder because honestly, the people who prepped us back at my det yelled louder and our FTP or LEADP program was certainly more difficult.
 

sheriff3

5-Year Member
Sorry to hijack... I don't understand why a cadre member would be trying to remove items from a locked bag. I can see if the item is unsecured to teach them a lesson but not from a locked container. Idiocy.
OP as for your question if PIMA sees your post she will likely have a list for you and others.
 

Tex232

Member
My son went last year and it was an experience. It is one of those thing where its hell being there but when its over you were glad you went. They seem to make it shorter every year. I think it was 3 days shorter this year and my son was told that there would be no yelling this year. I have never been and dont know if I could even handle it, but it seems from I have read from people who have attended previous years, that they have been watering down the program for several years now I dont necessarily mean watering in a negative way, but the boot camp experience has been toned down.
To say it's been watered down is an understatement. The whole summer training thing with Air Force ROTC has been a joke for the past several years, even when I went back in 14. I mean no yelling, are they serious? I understand the AF's and the military's goal in recent decades to halt physical hazing, and that's a good thing, but this is just way over the top. If you don't wish to be yelled at and put under stress (yes, intense hollering and loud noise is a good way of doing that, regardless of what some of the politically correct folks will tell you) then don't join the military, it's as simple as that. To put it bluntly, the AF is going to be churning out a bunch of sorry excuses for officers if they continue down the road they're on.
 
To say it's been watered down is an understatement. The whole summer training thing with Air Force ROTC has been a joke for the past several years, even when I went back in 14. I mean no yelling, are they serious? I understand the AF's and the military's goal in recent decades to halt physical hazing, and that's a good thing, but this is just way over the top. If you don't wish to be yelled at and put under stress (yes, intense hollering and loud noise is a good way of doing that, regardless of what some of the politically correct folks will tell you) then don't join the military, it's as simple as that. To put it bluntly, the AF is going to be churning out a bunch of sorry excuses for officers if they continue down the road they're on.
YESSSS!!! Couldn't agree more. I have friends in my school's AFROTC det. I couldn't believe when they said "no yelling" and when they took out combatives and cut it down to just barely over 2 weeks.
 

Pima

10-Year Member
I can't believe this either. I think it is the dumbest decision ever. Let's be honest, @35% of these cadets will go to the rated world. Basically, impho, if these cadets don't get use to being yelled at and told they are screwing up, UPT/UNT/RPA is going to be a HUUUUGGGGE wake up call when their IPs yell at them on a daily basis, because yelling still exists.

I am not going to say they will be in a sorry shape for officers, but I do believe they are doing harm for many of them by not preparing them for the ADAF life. It is not only in the rated world, but the non-rated too. Do they truly think that the Maintenance CC is not going to take that newly minted O1 out to the woodshed when they screwed up by not delivering the jets for the day when they could have? Do they believe that the squadron CC won't yell at the Intel officer for not getting the job done correctly, remember Intel gives briefings to pilots for their missions. How about the weather officer for not giving accurate info.

SFT has been watering down for years, at this point from what I am reading here, I am not sure why they even do it at all. DS went back in 10 when it was a TDY. He didn't find it hard, except for one thing. He was considered under weight, to the point if he lost 3 lbs there they would consider him a medical turnback (he was taped too). Due to that reason they made him drink ENSURE with every meal. Otherwise he was like Phyzix and felt they were harder on him at the det. to prep him for SFT.

OBTW, it is also getting watered down in the ADAF world for rated. IFS aka now IFT was a wash out program with @25% rate. Now the S = Screening, is a T = Training. Basically everybody will make it through.
~ DS's IFS class started with 28, finished the class with 21. One student busted the 1st test on Friday. On Monday they were able to take the test again. They passed. On Tuesday they failed the 2nd test. By Friday they were being drummed out and sent back to their base to await an FEB.
~ DS's classmate from his det., and a very good friend, busted the 1st flight, sent up for a 2nd aka an 88. Busted again, sent up again for an 89, and busted. She is now an Intel officer, was FEB'd before she even started UPT.

Had it been IFT and not IFS those 2 cadets probably would have made it through to UPT, but probably would have washed out fairly quickly there. Thus, for me what is the point of having IFT at all if it doesn't weed out what needs to be weeded for UPT/UNT
 

mil.intel

Member
Overall, it wasn't bad at all while giving the time and opportunity to bond and work with other cadets who (mostly) will be serving by my side in the ADAF in the near future. I received one outstanding LCE and all others in the high-sat range. I finished top third, and got a recommendation from the CC to return as a CTA.

Unfortunately, with the understanding and acknowledgement of my limited experience as a cadet, I daresay that pressure only in the form of yelling is NOT entirely conducive towards excellence in performance. I concede that yelling IS a real thing and WILL probably happen in ADAF at some point. But I am confident that I'm not the only person when I say different forms of pressure and stress CAN and WILL stimulate leadership and growth. I constantly received "elevation of voice", which indeed pushed me/us towards betterment but my determination to do better was at its peak when my FTO encouraged and challenged me during a 1:1 debrief, told me that I am an excellent leader due to A and B but my areas of improvement C can be worked on.

Judging by the bigger-picture AF, the entire organization seems to be shifting away from the old-school, gung-ho in-your-physical-face mentality to more professional work environment that mirrors the actual civilian workforce (thereby assisting to create a seamless transition to civilian sector if need be) and I wholeheartedly support this change and could not be more excited to serve our country in the future!
 
From what I heard form my son, there was plenty of yelling, including from an OTS person who thought the cadets were part of OTS.
What bothered me more were the stories of the DG Hunters - cadets putting themselves first by undermining others are not training to be effective officers.
 

Pima

10-Year Member
So many things to say
I concede that yelling IS a real thing and WILL probably happen in ADAF at some point.
It WILL happen, no probably.
~ Just like in the corporate world. Your BOSS will yell at you when you screw up.
~~ The difference is in the corporate world lives at are not at risk to the rate they are in any military career. Please tell me how if you mess up at Apple or Google how someone may die due to your mistake.

Both will bring you out on the carpet. Both will scream at you. Trust me. I have been just an ADAF wife for 21 yrs and now an ADAF Mom, but during those years I have been yelled at by bosses for my FUBAR.

Being yelled at is not at a bad thing. If you are like me, you take it in, and say MY BAD. You learn real quick that you never want to be in that situation again.

I get you are saying that you accept the yelling, but also want to understand where to correct your mistakes.

I also get old school and new school. I just go back to my last post. How many of these cadets (AFROTC is @800+ that go rated) will now be in for some major pain via rated. UPT IPs are typically called grey beards. IOWS they are about to get out. They will still be old school. They remember being yelled at and told on a weekly basis they are the bottom of the barrel. There is no cheering at UPT, and UPT is 54 weeks. UNT is 49 weeks. Not sure about RPA. You don't get unless you are an OMG stud.

IF SFT has watered it down to the point that they no longer yell at students, than how will they survive SERE, Water Survival, let alone UPT/UNT/RPA?

I am not trying to be rude, unkind or mean. I am just saying. I wonder why at all they pay all of this money out of the AFROTC budget to do LEAD. I am being honest, tell me what you walked away with in the end that could not have been done at your det?
~ Think about the money for a second. How much does it cost to fly a cadet from Alaska to Maxwell? Now multiply that by what? 1900 cadets around the nation?

Sorry, but I believe the AF is doing harm to these cadets. I believe they need to feel the pain in every way. Not the...Well, let me 1st state, you are a great cadet, BUT you messed up here.

Judging by the bigger-picture AF, the entire organization seems to be shifting away from the old-school, gung-ho in-your-physical-face mentality to more professional work environment that mirrors the actual civilian workforce (thereby assisting to create a seamless transition to civilian sector if need be) and I wholeheartedly support this change and could not be more excited to serve our country in the future!
Again, LMAO. I work corporate and have for probably as long as you have been alive. I can GUARANTEE you that the multiple corporations I have worked for will GET IN YOUR FACE for screwing up. We, just like younger officers will stand up straight and take it in the face. Apologize and walk out of the office with our butts looking like ground meat!
~ If you don't think that is the actual civilian workforce than you are mistaken. That or the people you use as an example walk on water.
~~ I have been promoted and recognized nationally, but I still get my butt chewed off when I screw up...how do I know I am in trouble. Pima, close the door. I take it. I accept it and I move on.

The idea that you walk in the OLD school is gone is a FALLACY. Your O5 when you entered was raised in the OLD school. Maybe in 20 yrs the NEW will exist, but that is also going to be in select fields, right now those CCs are OLD. They were raised with the screaming, hence to me this is going to harm the cadets when they commission.

mil.intel. do you knew what a SNAP or SNAW is. I am assuming you are going Intel. If you go fighter intel you will know real quick.
 
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