AFROTC?

... its better I take that then have done engineering to get more money...and then flunk out (as a lot of people do)
Are you saying that some students are choosing engineering just so they can receive a better Air Force scholarship?
 
Im currently a freshman with a 3 year type 2. No stipend or book allowance or anything until contracting sophomore year.

Also, on another note, the AF does not lose people based on their "type" system. I live with Army Navy Marine and AF cadets/mids and this subject comes up alot. Its true the AF doesnt offer all full-rides but if finances are an issue, AF cadets can take their scholarships anywhere they want. If not getting full-ride was an issue for me, I could have just stayed in Florida and gone to a cheaper school.
Doesn't VT charge about 28K a year for OOS tuition plus room and board? You can't conceive of anyone either not having the ability to pay 28K the first year (while waiting for your type 2 scholarship to begin) or not wanting to go to a school in Florida instead of VT? Is it possible that some might join the Navy or ROTC programs so that they could attend VT or another school of choice?
 
I don't believe that any branch loses qualified candidates who want to serve, because like Nick just stated, their desire to serve will not stop them, if that means taking student loans for one yr to get their dream of being commissioned in the military, than that is what they will do.
Do you actually believe that ALL ROTC students have a dream of being commissioned in the military? Do you think ANY of the military branches believe that? How about just the AFROTC candidates? I think the military is well aware that MANY of the ROTC students are trading years of service for an education. Just check out their ROTC sites and FAQs. They are selling $175K+ opportunities to go to school and THEN get some experience. If everybody had the "dream" then mandatory service following college wouldn't be necessary.

I would rather see less qualified that desire to serve then someone who was more qualified who did it for a "free" education.
Of course you would. I'm sure the military branches would agree with you. All they have to do to accomplish this is to do away with the free tuition, books and stipends. The truly motivated would still join ROTC and find a way to pay for school. As you said: "..if that means taking student loans for one yr to get their dream of being commissioned in the military, than that is what they will do." Certainly those candidates that are willing to take out loans for one year would be willing to do it for all four in order to follow their dream?

There must be a VERY good reason why the military branches do NOT take this approach.

In the end of the day for the AF, IMHO they probably have the most qualified and that is why you see cadets converting type 2 into type 7.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't they converting type 7s into type 2s? In other words...students (or parents) are paying for their first year of college out of pocket so they can get 18K a year towards tuition in the 2,3,& 4th years?

What do the students that are offered type 7s do if their school costs 40K a year? What do they do if they are offered type 2s (18k) and they are accepted into Carnegie Mellon (40k+)? Does the AF not want ROTC students that are educated at some of the "top" (and most expensive) colleges?
 
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I believe you want me to say they lose qualified candidates because of the regs. Do they? Of course they do! Am I repulsed at the thought? No! I would rather have an officer who wants to serve covering our DS's A$$ than someone that feels they must because of a scholarship. Is that harsh? Yes, but it is my DS's A$$ on the line.

I can tell you from our DS's det only about 1/3 are on scholarship. The rest are there because they want to serve, and yes his college bill is over 35K a yr as an OOS, 20K IS. Not everyone in ROTC is scholarship.

This is the system that exists, I am not about to bang my head against the wall to fight it. Maybe it is because DS was fortunate for the full ride, and maybe it is because I believe that they are getting well qualified cadets.

I am not sure what you want me to say. You get accepted to Carnegie and cannot afford it according to FAFSA for your EC, than I would suspect that you will receive Merit on that with ROTC scholarship should equal out.

Should I say that they lose qualified candidates? Of course they do, not only for financial reasons, but also because of the commitment. It is not a perfect system, yet I am not about to bite the hand that feeds my son.

Finally
Certainly those candidates that are willing to take out loans for one year would be willing to do it for all four in order to follow their dream?

And that would be why the ROTCs have cadets that are not on scholarship and OTS/OCS exists.

Reality is we are both on the same side, you are addressing issues that are new to your family, me I have been on this road for 20+ yrs. Bullet was an ROTC scholarship recipient back in the mid-late 80's, so I guess I am more complacent.

In the end of the day, you must ask do you believe that our military is spending their dollars wisely recruiting through ROTC scholarships? I do. It might not be the optimal system, but it is one that works with proven results.
 
I believe you want me to say they lose qualified candidates because of the regs. Do they? Of course they do!
Then we are finally in agreement on this point.

I can tell you from our DS's det only about 1/3 are on scholarship. The rest are there because they want to serve, and yes his college bill is over 35K a yr as an OOS, 20K IS. Not everyone in ROTC is scholarship.
Those numbers (1/3 on scholarship) seem sort of low. I have not looked extensively but did find this number on the PSU ROTC site:
• Approximately 120 students participate in Air Force ROTC, with approximately 85 percent on various types of scholarships in all majors.
http://www.psu.edu/ouic/uport/protc.html

Should I say that they lose qualified candidates? Of course they do, not only for financial reasons, but also because of the commitment.
Again we agree.

Reality is we are both on the same side...
Yes - we definitely are.

In the end of the day, you must ask do you believe that our military is spending their dollars wisely recruiting through ROTC scholarships? I do. It might not be the optimal system, but it is one that works with proven results.
I believe the military is spending their money wisely by recruiting through ROTC scholarships. That doesn't mean they (and in particular the AF) can't do better. As you may have gathered by now, I think the AF system is flawed and is costing the AF some qualified candidates. How many? I don't know, but it definitely has to be some. Because my daughter is on the receiving end of this "flaw" I may be feeling the unfairness more acutely than you.

But in the end, as you said....the reality is that we are both on the same side. :thumb:
 
Okay than we basically agree on everything, except for scholarship selection, that being said....

Could it be that for her and your family you have decided the AF is a better fit? If that is the case and your DD is getting the shorter end of the stick, would you not agree that the AF has enough qualified candidates to be selective? If you do agree that they can pick and choose, then would you not agree that their bar does not lower because their demand is higher than they can supply?

Your DD is an incredible candidate for ROTC, every branch will scoop her up. Why does she want AF? Why would she be willing to take a 3 yr over a 4 yr in a different branch?

The AF stinks at scholarships compared to other branches...ask yourself WHY? The answer is clear because they can...when numbers run low they will be less selective until then, they can pick and choose the best of the litter...which brings us back to the question of best qualified candidates.

Finally,
That doesn't mean they (and in particular the AF) can't do better. As you may have gathered by now, I think the AF system is flawed and is costing the AF some qualified candidates

Where do they get the funding? There is only a limited amount of money to go around, remember the AF is the smallest branch out of the Army, Navy and AF. Again, they are meeting goals, thus there is no need to recruit more by expanding their ROTC program, they also have OTS. There are actual regs that state X% of Company grade compared to X% of Field, compared to X% of Flag...that is why there are lag times from selection to pin on, or why only a few yrs ago they RIF'd 2 yr groups.

In the end, it is all about numbers, and the ROTC cadet that is willing to serve any branch for the "free" education, will most likely not get the AF, since the competition is high and they have less $$$ to use for scholarships. The one that only wants to serve the AF will bite the cost, to me that is the best candidate!
 
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Could it be that for her and your family you have decided the AF is a better fit?
Absolutely! Of course the decision (and long term responsibility) is actually my daughters, but yes "we" think the AF has the most to offer her.

If that is the case and your DD is getting the shorter end of the stick, would you not agree that the AF has enough qualified candidates to be selective? If you do agree that they can pick and choose, then would you not agree that their bar does not lower because their demand is higher than they can supply?
This is where you and I just cannot seem to agree. It seems that we are mixing a couple of issues.
1. Yes - Overall the AF is getting enough candidates to be selective (this we agree on). However, the AF may not be getting enough of ALL majors to be selective in each area.
2. Yes - I agree that they can pick and choose (again we agree on this)
3. N0 - I do not agree that the bar does not lower because the demand is higher than they can supply.

Let's say (for arguments sake) that the AF needs to commission 100 nurses each year from ROTC to meet its needs. Hopefully we can agree that:
A. It is preferable (from the AF's perspective) to "develop" nurse officers through the ROTC program rather than hiring BSN / RN graduates and sending them to a 4 week COT course.
B. If you want 100 nurses to come out of the pipeline (at the end of 4 years), you need to put more than 100 into the "pipeline" at the beginning of the process (either after high school or as sophomores in college). In a perfect (recruiting) world the AF would get 200+ qualified applicants for 100 nursing scholarships and then select (and recruit) the top 100 (perhaps a few more).
C. Candidates that recognize AFROTC is something they are interested in before college (and began the application process during their HS senior year) are likely to be more motivated and serious about an AF career than someone who didn't give it any thought until a recruiter approached them while in college. or someone receiving a sign-on bonus and tuition reimbursement.

If we can agree on the above three points, lets talk about whether "the bar does not lower because the demand is higher than they can supply". Let me first assume that the "demand" you are referring to is scholarships. In other words: The demand for nursing scholarships from the AF is greater than the supply of those scholarships. While this statement might be true, is the AF actually taking the "cream of the crop" of that over demand for their nursing scholarships, or are they losing a lot of them and not actually recruiting the top 100 candidates that they need? If the demand was higher than the supply, then the AF would just select the top 100 (or so) and not have to worry about recruiting any others. This is not the reality of the AF nurse recruiting situation. The AF (as I've said repeatedly) is going into the nursing schools (within colleges) and offering type 1 scholarships to freshmen (and advanced years). They are also offering tuition reimbursement and sign-on bonuses to BSN / RN graduates. Why? If they have more qualified nursing candidates (out of HS) applying for scholarships than scholarships available, why would they have to resort to the above (less than desirable) methods to recruit enough nurses for their needs? What happened to that surplus (over demand) of nurse candidates? Clearly, one of three scenarios occurred:
1. They did not in fact have MORE demand for their nursing scholarships than the supply (less than 100 qualified fictional applicants)
2. The supply of nursing scholarships was NOT enough to satisfy the AFs need for nurses (less than 100 fictional scholarships for over 100 fictional nursing candidates)
3. The AF failed to recruit 100 nurses from more than 100 applicants despite the fact that they (the AF) could supposedly pick and choose?

Again, if the "bar does not lower" because of the AFs approach to scholarships (type 1,2 & 7) what happened to the best of their applicants and why did they not recruit enough?

Your DD is an incredible candidate for ROTC, every branch will scoop her up. Why does she want AF? Why would she be willing to take a 3 yr over a 4 yr in a different branch?
On behalf of my daughter...Thank you. However, I'm sure there are better qualified candidates than my daughter that unfortunately do not have her moral and financial support. I am (obviously) concerned the AF is losing some of those. Perhaps too many. Personally if my son (a junior in HS) was wounded and taken to an AF hospital, I would not care whether the Docs and Nurses joined for the money or not (after all they accept positions in civilian life based on monetary reasons). I would want the best (skilled) and the brightest taking care of him. I don't want to beleive that some "flawed" AF recruiting method is causing the bar to be lowered for the recruitment of nurses (or any other AF job).

The AF stinks at scholarships compared to other branches...ask yourself WHY? The answer is clear because they can...when numbers run low they will be less selective until then, they can pick and choose the best of the litter...which brings us back to the question of best qualified candidates.
Possibly. As I said above, there is some strong evidence that this "pick and choose" method may not apply to ALL AF jobs.

Where do they get the funding? There is only a limited amount of money to go around, remember the AF is the smallest branch out of the Army, Navy and AF.
Did you see my other thread on whether the AF is actually the smallest of the branches? I hope someone can contribute some other sources for that information.
http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=8832

Again, they are meeting goals, thus there is no need to recruit more by expanding their ROTC program, they also have OTS.
Possibly. As I said above, there is some strong evidence that the AF is meeting its "goals" in SOME fields by lowering the bar on its candidate pool.

In the end, it is all about numbers, and the ROTC cadet that is willing to serve any branch for the "free" education, will most likely not get the AF, since the competition is high and they have less $$$ to use for scholarships. The one that only wants to serve the AF will bite the cost, to me that is the best candidate!
Perhaps our biggest disagreement is with this part of your opinion. Does the AF have ENOUGH money to meet it's need for nurses? Also, is it using it's "limited" funds in the best possible method by recruiting recent BSN grads and in college students that have never considered ROTC instead of using it for the cream of the crop coming out of HS? I'm sure you know my opinion.....:thumb:
 
Doesn't VT charge about 28K a year for OOS tuition plus room and board? You can't conceive of anyone either not having the ability to pay 28K the first year (while waiting for your type 2 scholarship to begin) or not wanting to go to a school in Florida instead of VT? Is it possible that some might join the Navy or ROTC programs so that they could attend VT or another school of choice?


I fail to see what your point is. Its correct, VT charges a lot out of state. And if someone cant afford that with a scholarship that doesnt cover all, they still have options...they can go to a cheaper school.

Of course if going to VT is their number one priority, then they can look at other services. But if their number one priority is an AF commission, they arent screwed. Thats my point
 
Are you saying that some students are choosing engineering just so they can receive a better Air Force scholarship?

Absolutely. I know several. They start as engineers, cant handle the workload and have to switch majors. AF takes away scholarship. They end up switching to Army. That is a VERY common situation. I thought about trying it too, but thankfully I didnt.
 
I agree with Nick, I know of 3 cadets that dropped out of engineering, 2 went to the Army, 1 reapplied for a different type and was given it. It is not uncommon since most kids believe that they are strong in math and science that it will be easy, only to learn real quick that it isn't.
 
Do you actually believe that ALL ROTC students have a dream of being commissioned in the military? Do you think ANY of the military branches believe that? How about just the AFROTC candidates? I think the military is well aware that MANY of the ROTC students are trading years of service for an education. Just check out their ROTC sites and FAQs. They are selling $175K+ opportunities to go to school and THEN get some experience. If everybody had the "dream" then mandatory service following college wouldn't be necessary.

These cases DO exist. Most get weeded out in the first year simply because they dont want to put up with the time committment or they end up getting in trouble with the law. Does that waste AF money? Yes. But those people still dont end up getting commissioned.


I'm sorry but I just have to say that I think the central premise of this discussion is flawed. What you're trying to do is simplify the thought process of high school kids looking for a paid education and a commission. To try and group all of them together as if they all look for the same things in a service/university is just unrealistic.

I can only speak from my own experience. And thats living with 750 cadets/midshipmen from all the services on a daily basis. People have different priorities. Some people may be committed to an AF commission and are willing to pay some out of pocket (my case). Some just want any commission and want more money, so they go Army or Navy (many of my friends). And A LOT of people are really committed to the Army or Navy and are lucky that they get full rides (many of my friends). We're all looking for diffrernt things out of this process.
 
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Of course if going to VT is their number one priority, then they can look at other services. But if their number one priority is an AF commission, they arent screwed. Thats my point
My point is that good quality candidates that are poor and want to go to a specific (expensive) school (like VT) must either choose to accept a scholarship with another branch, or give up their dream school. The AF scholarship type system offers an advantage to those (like you) that can afford to pay 30k for a year of school while waiting for an AF scholarship to kick-in. I would prefer a scholarship system that gave EVERY candidate the same opportunity to join the AF and go to a school that they could get accepted (as in the Navy & Army programs), instead of forcing well qualified "poorer" students to make a choice. This system may cost the AF some good candidates. If in fact some GOOD quality candidates go to a different ROTC program then those people that believe the AF doesn't lose good quality candidates to other branches because of its scholarship "type" system would be mistaken.
 
You need to realize that many universities that are state universities also have a deal with ROTC, where they give the OOS cadet the IS price, thus, they have a full ride. That eliminates the issue of finance. Also, some schools even give discounted rates for room and board.
 
Are you saying that some students are choosing engineering just so they can receive a better Air Force scholarship?
Absolutely. I know several. They start as engineers, cant handle the workload and have to switch majors. AF takes away scholarship. They end up switching to Army. That is a VERY common situation. I thought about trying it too, but thankfully I didnt.
Doesn't this strike you as a system that is broken? Students that want to join the AF but can't afford to go to school without a type 1 or 2 scholarship and thus end up shafting themselves by choosing a major just to get enough money? Clearly these are students whose grades, SATs, PT tests, interviewing skills and motivation made them good candidates. It seems wrong somehow that highly motivated (willing to change their career goals to get into the AF) candidates are lost to other branches just because they couldn't hack the engineering majors. Don't you think these type of candidates would contribute more to the AF than those that are just interested in the money?
 
The problem is there is not enough money, it is not the system, it is the amount of money within the system. Supply and demand...in the end of the day they have too high of a demand for their supply. If you use this theory, it would also state that they did get the best of the best because they are getting the free ride.

Also, remember the AF is engineer driven, and that is why they have this large difference in scholarship break down. They want and need engineers, especially for pilots, Missiles and now with UAVs. If you go to a military base, I would say on a whole you probably have 2-3 fliers for every 1 staff. It is just the make up. The military has in all branches started to walk away from military health care professionals where they can...for example, most dentists that work on base are now contracted, 20 yrs ago every base had a maternity ward, now only the very large due, thus the demand for nurses and docs have decreased. 20 yrs ago the pharmacist was military, now they are usually contracted. 20 yrs ago the xray techs were military now most hospitals don't have x ray abilities and you are sent on the economy.

It is all about the needs of the service and getting the best optimal bang for the buck.
 
Do you actually believe that ALL ROTC students have a dream of being commissioned in the military? Do you think ANY of the military branches believe that? How about just the AFROTC candidates? I think the military is well aware that MANY of the ROTC students are trading years of service for an education. Just check out their ROTC sites and FAQs. They are selling $175K+ opportunities to go to school and THEN get some experience. If everybody had the "dream" then mandatory service following college wouldn't be necessary.
These cases DO exist. Most get weeded out in the first year simply because they dont want to put up with the time committment or they end up getting in trouble with the law. Does that waste AF money? Yes. But those people still dont end up getting commissioned.
What cases do exist? That students join AFROTC because of the marketing hype and then drop out of the program? How this would cause them to end up getting in trouble with the law is a mystery to me.

Let me ask you: "Why are all the ROTC programs marketing their programs as $175K+ opportunities to go to school and THEN get some experience, IF they truly believe that ALL ROTC students have a dream of being commissioned in the military? They do it because they know it works. They are fully aware that many of their candidates join because of the scholarships and they promote the hel* out of them. If they could get enough "true believers" that would join ROTC just because they wanted to be officers they would drop the scholarships in a heartbeat.

I'm sorry but I just have to say that I think the central premise of this discussion is flawed. What you're trying to do is simplify the thought process of high school kids looking for a paid education and a commission. To try and group all of them together as if they all look for the same things in a service/university is just unrealistic.
I don't think I'm doing either. Each student looks for different things in the college they want to attend. I accept that each ROTC candidate has different reasons for joining ROTC. Who is it that believes all AFROTC candidates have a dream of being commissioned in the military? Well I guess not all, some get in trouble with the law or don't get commissioned for other reasons.

I can only speak from my own experience.
Speaking of your OWN experience....are you related to Pima?
 
The military has in all branches started to walk away from military health care professionals where they can...for example, most dentists that work on base are now contracted, 20 yrs ago every base had a maternity ward, now only the very large due, thus the demand for nurses and docs have decreased. 20 yrs ago the pharmacist was military, now they are usually contracted. 20 yrs ago the xray techs were military now most hospitals don't have x ray abilities and you are sent on the economy.
The military is NOT walking away from the health care professionals. They are never going to put civilian health care professionals in combat zones (can't control them without the UCMJ and the threat of prison) and they know it.

The problem isn't that the military is walking away (check out their web sites and post grad recruiting efforts), the problem is that they cannot recruit enough to fill their needs so they attempt to fill the non-combat roles with civilian employees. Unfortunately they cannot get enough of those either, thus the closing and consolidating of hospitals and facilities.

You are correct about one thing....it is all about the needs of the service and getting optimal bang for their buck. Until the AF is able to offer health care professionals an experience or money that they can't get in civilian life, they will have a tough time recruiting enough. Maybe they could offer them something unique....like the ability to fly a super sonic 361 million dollar aircraft (F-22). That should really help recruit the "true believers".
 
What cases do exist? That students join AFROTC because of the marketing hype and then drop out of the program? How this would cause them to end up getting in trouble with the law is a mystery to me.

I'm sorry I didnt really make that clear. My point was that the type of people who cheat the AF by taking scholarships simply for money with no committment to serving usually get weeded out naturally. They dont care about their obligations and will go out drinking/driving or not meeting ROTC standards in some other way. They are only there for the money and that simply isnt enough motivation to stay out of trouble. So, despite wasting AF money, almost all of those "cases" will not make it to commissioning (which is what really matters)

Who is it that believes all AFROTC candidates have a dream of being commissioned in the military?
I am. Not all people who begin AFROTC want to serve for the sake of serving. But everyone who makes it to commissioning does. There's alot that goes on during 4 years of ROTC. Its not the same "weeding out" experience as service academies but it still happens. There is not one senior at my det who isnt motivated to put on the uniform.

Speaking of your OWN experience....are you related to Pima?

No. I just happen to have a lot of knoweledge of this subject. Im not being arrogant here. Im only a sophomore in college, but if theres anything i have some useful experience with, its this. Just a fact.



So, back to the issue. You ARE completely correct that the AF does waste money on some people. Do they miss out on things that the Army and Navy get by handing out full-rides? Probably. But you act as though everyone in ROTC is entitled to a scholarship. As a type-7 scholarship cadet, I dont feel as though I'm getting "shafted" and neither would I if i didnt have any scholarship at all. That same sentiment goes for everyone I know in ROTC. Would we like a scholarship? Yes. Do we all expect one? No. There are a lot of better places that money can go than scholarships. You may disagree with me but i honestly believe that.
 
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Also, on another note, the AF does not lose people based on their "type" system.....

You ARE completely correct that the AF does waste money on some people. Do they miss out on things that the Army and Navy get by handing out full-rides? Probably.
The AF does lose some people because of their "type" system. Some well qualified people.

But you act as though everyone in ROTC is entitled to a scholarship.
I do not believe this, anymore than I believe everyone who applies should be accepted. I do believe the "type" system of scholarships that the AF uses hurts in recruiting the best people REGARDLESS of their economic status.

There are a lot of better places that money can go than scholarships. You may disagree with me but i honestly believe that.
While I am absolutely sure that there are MANY places the AF can better spend money than scholarships, I question how successful their recruiting efforts would be without the promise of $175K+ education.
 
The AF does lose some people because of their "type" system. Some well qualified people.

They don't lose anymore "well-qualified" people than the Army and Navy. All the services waste money on a few people every year. Its inevitable. But there's no disproportionate number of AF people ditching because they feel they're getting "shafted". If there's any service that hurts itself by its scholarship policies, its the Army.

While I am absolutely sure that there are MANY places the AF can better spend money than scholarships, I question how successful their recruiting efforts would be without the promise of $175K+ education.

How successful would the Army's or Navy's recruiting effors be without those promises. They Army wastes alot more time and money on "unqualified" people than the Air Force. One of the AD Army officers here admitted that they hand out scholarships like candy and they have many people there who are wasting their time and wont end up commissioning.

The AF is more selective and therefore get more "qualified" people at the start than the other services. When AFROTC cadets mess up in some form or fashion and get kicked out or lose their scholarship, they go to the Army. In my time here I've never heard of someone screwing up their time in AROTC and then having to go to the AF. But I have personally see again and again people not meeting AF standards and going to the Army for another shot.

Now which service do you think gets the cream of the crop?
 
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