Air Force service years

[Weather]

so other than the Ribbon what does the 4 years of active duty at the academy, and I mean active because you wear the uniform everyday and are held accountable to all the same rules and regs as others outside the academy i.e. officers and enlisted, get you? If I understand it does not count toward retirement eligibility or in TIS computations, correct? I could understand it not being considered for ROTC cadets/midshipmen but for academy grads, seems a little harsh to not be able to count it at least for pay purposes.

Well, for one thing, it gets "you" a quality education with a bachelor's degree, the opportunity to serve your country and a guaranteed job after graduation, plus some leadership opportunities and the chance to be part of a military family.

BTW, a cadet's time at the academy DOES count as federal service for longevity (e.g. retirement eligibility) if they ever take a federal civil service job.

Finally, I think your remark about ROTC cadets/midshipmen is off the mark: who are we to say that a young officer who's worked his/her way through university, then gone to OCS hasn't had a more challenging college career than an academy grad?

A butter bar is a butter bar, and source of commissioning does not predict who is going to be a good officer and who isn't.

 

[Christcorp]

Just my opinion, but the 4 years at the academy does count for something. I counts for an elite level college degree/education. It counts towards not owing $50,000 - $200,000 in student loans; depending on where you might have gone to school. It counts towards becoming a commissioned officer without having to put yourself through college first. There's a lot of things it counts towards.

Do I personally think that the 4 years at the academy should count towards retirement? No. Should it count towards TIS (time in service) towards pay? No. Why do I say this? Because I see no reason why it should. I personally don't consider it the "SAME" active duty as you might think it is. Yes, you have rules and such similar to active duty, but they really aren't the same. You're able to quit and leave at any time in the first 2 years. And I want cadets at the academy who WANT to be there to serve their country. I don't want people applying to the academy for the medical, travel, job security, etc... and in return, they are "WILLING" to serve to pay back their "Debt". I want cadets who WANT to Serve.

When it comes to initial AFSC (Job selection), the academy grad has a generally more successful chance of doing what they want compared to other commissioning programs. Not that OTS and ROTC can't be in the career that they want; just that the academy student pretty much gets what they want as long as they qualify. I guess I'm old school. I'm not into the "What's in it for me" generation. When I joined the air force in 1978, I didn't decide on it because of medical, retirement, education, etc... Yes, I knew it existed, but that wasn't my main motivation. I knew the career I wanted. I knew the air force would allow me to do such a career as part of something much larger than myself.

Sorry, not saying that the benefits of service isn't important. Just that I don't know what a person expects beyond what the academy gives you. I don't know of another school that pays your room, board, tuition, etc... AND pays you $850+ a month. Then on top of that, they pay you at least 2 times to go off and experience a different part of the world (Ops). Sorry, but WHY should the 4 years at the academy count towards pay or retirement? Your "Job" for lack of a better term might be "Student". But you're not being pulled away and being deployed to the sandbox and risking your life. Sorry, I'll shut up. Mike.....

 

[js3486]

Well, for one thing, it gets "you" a quality education with a bachelor's degree, the opportunity to serve your country and a guaranteed job after graduation, plus some leadership opportunities and the chance to be part of a military family.

BTW, a cadet's time at the academy DOES count as federal service for longevity (e.g. retirement eligibility) if they ever take a federal civil service job.

Finally, I think your remark about ROTC cadets/midshipmen is off the mark: who are we to say that a young officer who's worked his/her way through university, then gone to OCS hasn't had a more challenging college career than an academy grad?

A butter bar is a butter bar, and source of commissioning does not predict who is going to be a good officer and who isn't.

Weather et al,

I think you misunderstood the nature of my comment. I am aware of the benefits of an Academy education. My point is these kids are eating, sleeping, and breathing the military, not true of most other commissioning options unless you go to Norwich, The Citadel, VMI or the like. I am simply asking if the time there does not count for retirement or Pay does count for anything else other than what we in the Navy call a Geedunk ribbon. Don't get me wrong I know about the quality of education, guaranteed job, service to country (as Gulf War 1 vet and DAV, I KNOW) and I also read title 10 USC 971 so I know what the law says. My question if I may state it again a little more clearly what does the time count toward if anything other than the ribbon. ChristCorp I get what you are saying but for those who stay after two years and commit to finishing would it not seem they then have the same burden. just a question no offense intended nor am I trying to dissuade or persuade anyone to do anything differently. I just had a question about why it is the way it is, and what it is exaclty.... Make sense?

I yield the remainder of my time to the floor.

 

[Christcorp]

Well, based on my previous post, I think you can tell that my opinion is that there is no reason that their time at the academy SHOULD count towards anything else. As mentioned by another, I do believe that it counts towards federal time. But it's hard for me to argue for it counting when I don't believe it should. Not one young man or woman was forced to go to school there.

But your question is: Does the 4 years count towards anything as far as pay or retirement goes. The answer is no. When they graduate from the academy, they are a butter-bar (O-1) with LESS than 2 years of service. That is their pay scale. The EXACT same pay scale as an OTS or ROTC Butter-Bar walking in in May of the same year that the cadet gets commissioned. The ONLY difference is if you are prior enlisted, with 4 years. You could have done 4 years as enlisted, be 21-22 years old, get accepted to the academy, graduate at 25-26, and you'll be a (O-1) with 4 years of service. Also, prior enlisted are a little different in other areas. But for the traditional 17-18 year old cadet, they graduate from the academy and they are O-1, day 1. And again, I'm not the right person to discuss it with because I don't believe that they should gain anything else for those 4 years at the academy. Forget logic, rules, UCMJ, law, etc... I don't consider cadets active duty. I guess part of my criteria for active duty is: Can you be deployed? If not, or until you do, you're not active duty. I think the same goes with the guard and reserves. When they are deployed, they are put into "active duty". So I'll let others discuss this portion of the thread. mike...

 

[flieger83]

OK Steve so other than the Ribbon what does the 4 years of active duty at the academy, and I mean active because you wear the uniform everyday and are held accountable to all the same rules and regs as others outside the academy i.e. officers and enlisted, get you? If I understand it does not count toward retirement eligibility or in TIS computations, correct? I could understand it not being considered for ROTC cadets/midshipmen but for academy grads, seems a little harsh to not be able to count it at least for pay purposes. Your thoughts?

You know, I never really gave it much thought. It'd be nice if it counted toward retirement pay, or just pay purposes, but when I think about it...I don't really see much benefit gained by the Gov't for allowing that.

We (as cadets/mid'n) don't deploy, aren't sent in harms way, all we really are is students. Sure, we live at the "zoo" and are in uniform, etc...etc...but at the end of the day, we're college students. So are students at VMI, Citadel, NMMI, Norwich, TX A&M Cadet Corps, etc. Should their time count?


In truth, I'm okay with Title 10 as it stands. And as far as the little ribbon goes...we're handing those things out nowadays like candy. Take a look at a French Field Marshal from the WWI era...then go check out ANY member of the USAF that's been deployed a few times...their uniforms will look VERY similar!

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

 

[js3486]

You know, I never really gave it much thought. It'd be nice if it counted toward retirement pay, or just pay purposes, but when I think about it...I don't really see much benefit gained by the Gov't for allowing that.

We (as cadets/mid'n) don't deploy, aren't sent in harms way, all we really are is students. Sure, we live at the "zoo" and are in uniform, etc...etc...but at the end of the day, we're college students. So are students at VMI, Citadel, NMMI, Norwich, TX A&M Cadet Corps, etc. Should their time count?


In truth, I'm okay with Title 10 as it stands. And as far as the little ribbon goes...we're handing those things out nowadays like candy. Take a look at a French Field Marshal from the WWI era...then go check out ANY member of the USAF that's been deployed a few times...their uniforms will look VERY similar!

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

That is really the answer I was looking for, just wondering, and I got an ear, or eye full as the case maybe...

Thanks for all the responses!

 

[xTxMANx]

I was wondering also, along the lines of education, if time at UPT counts for retirement or pay?

 

[flieger83]

I was wondering also, along the lines of education, if time at UPT counts for retirement or pay?

Once you are commissioned, EVERY DAY counts toward pay/retirement. Since you're an officer during UPT...

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

 

[Christcorp]

For those interested; if after the academy you go to grad school, med school, etc... Obviously you are a 2LT and the time in post academy education counts towards pay/retirement, but it doesn't count towards your commitment that you owe the academy.

 

[raimius]

the time in post academy education counts towards pay/retirement, but it doesn't count towards your commitment that you owe the academy.

I don't think so.
When we were briefed about grad school, they stated the commitments ran concurrently. I.E. if you went to a masters program immediately after graduation, you wouldn't owe any additional time.

 

[hornetguy]

I'll echo raimius: Grad school is concurrent, med school is not.

Grad school, you owe training + twice training. For me at RAND, 3 + 2*3 = 9 years. My academy 5 years falls with that and both are being served while im in school. Since I'll be a pilot, i will have no extension from grad school on my time total.

 

[Christcorp]

No, I didn't mean "Additional" time. Let me restate in a scenario:

Graduate May 2010:
You owe 5 years to the academy
You are approved to go to grad school for 2 years.
You graduate grad school
You still owe 3 more years of your 5. However, you also owe them for the time at training. For my scenario 6 years. But you've already done 2 in school, so you still owe 4.

I think we're saying the same thing, but differently. I've always seen it as: If you're going to do ANYTHING SPECIAL beyond the academy that requires additional training, throw the "5 years" initial commitment out the window, and start over with the new numbers. I actually like hornet's example. Go to grad school for 3 years. You owe them 9 years. But because you were in school for 3 of the years, when you graduate from grad school, you still owe them 6 years. If you're doing med school, pilot training, etc... figure accordingly.

I am definitely curious to know if I am misunderstanding this. I might have been given wrong info, or I understood it wrong. And raimius and hornet, I definitely concede to you two on this matter. You've got the most recent available information. One thing's pretty sure. They aren't going to just let you go to grad school after the academy graduation if they don't get something in return. I.e. if you going to be a pilot, they know they have you for a while. If you're going to be in C.E. and do a 5 and dive, they probably won't approve grad school if they're only going to get to use you for 2 years.

Also, while I went to a lot of schools and such that required commitments; once you have it in your mind that you're going to be a "Career Airman", it really doesn't matter if they tell you you are committed for "X" more years or not. I still stayed in over 20 years, so it really didn't matter when they told me I had to stay longer IF I did this school, or that class, or took this assignment, etc.... But again, PLEASE CORRECT ME if I'm misunderstanding. thanks. mike....

 

[hornetguy]

We are both correct and the misunderstanding is nixed me thinks.

 

[Christcorp]

So hornet; I see you said you got UPT. Excellent. Did you also get approved for grad school? What kind of wait time is there currently to start UPT? I know there's been a backlog. I'm getting these kinds of questions from some high school kids thinking of applying. Best of luck to you. Mike....

 

[hornetguy]

I will report to L.A. AFB about July 28th. I will be on casual for about a month. I begin my three year RAND program Sept 13th. When I graduate from there in 2013 (May) I will be assigned my report date for UPT. I do not know at this time what time period will occur. I SUSPECT I'll be sent to Laughlin in June, probably TDY for ASBC soon after for 2 months, then begin pilot training in late 2013. That is my best guess right now. Laughlin isn't a guarentee even at this point, I believe I get put back into the reshuffle, but should still be able to put in preferences. We'll see.

 

[Christcorp]

Excellent. Sounds like an exciting few years coming up. Congrats and best to you. Mike....

 

[Pima]

One thing I would stress is don't assume because you have the ability to dive at 5 yrs, that on June 1st 2015 you will be out of the service. Let me give you a scenario.

You go to a school that lasts 1 yr, you PCS overseas for a 2 yr assignment, now at 3 yrs into your 5, they PCS you again, this will now hit you with a new 3 yr commitment. This means you are at 6 before you can bolt. Take O-3 at the 4 yr marker and you are at 7. Since at your 5 yr marker you take another PCS and you are now at 8. Starting to see how people who actually thought they would leave at 5 end up being career. For pilots, that have to now stay until 10, at 9 they see that huge bonus and say what the heck, I'll leave at 14 because of the $$$, meanwhile, they get to 14 and they have little ones, bigger bills and say the paycheck is better than the airlines so I'll stay until 20 and get my retirement pay.

The people I know who got out had to plan their career accordingly and that also means being a non-vol for a PCS, which in essence is telling the new base you are out of the AF as soon as possible. Typically in that scenario, you can also expect to be hit with a no nothing job since it makes no sense to invest in your future. The same is true for accepting rank. You do not have to accept it because it will expand your commitment time, but you also told them your intentions. We knew several people who did not accept O-4 because their line number was going to come up within months from being able to separate and they had already decided to leave.

Bullet hit his retirement button at the 1st opportunity he could, he retired with 21 yrs., because we had PCS'd at 18 and 21 was the 1st chance to leave due to the 3yr PCS commitment.

 

[bigred]

One thing that I'd have to recheck on, is that while your cadet time doesn't count toward retirement as an officer, I "THINK" if you spent say 3 years as a cadet, and got kicked out for academic reasons, and went into the air force as "Enlisted", I think the cadet time might count towards payscale. Not 100%, and it's been about 7 years since I looked it up when there was a cadet who was leaving the academy and going enlisted. Anyway, that's not a normal situation anyway. mike....

Actually, you are 100% correct about that. If you see my recent post you'll find more specifics, however, if you don't feel like searching for that post; go to http://comptroller.defense.gov/fmr/07a/07a_01.pdf . It's pretty cut and dry,

"Service as a cadet or midshipman at a military academy is always creditable service for an enlisted member."

Chapter 1 page 1-5 (that's "page one dash five" not one through five) section D subsection 4:

 

[Christcorp]

Thanks for validating that for my BigRed. The military definitely has some unique rules. Most of makes sense. I.e. Why offer a person additional education, promotions, moves, etc... unless the individual is willing to extend their commitment to the military? It costs a lot of money to send an individual and possibly their spouse/children to a new base. It costs money and lost productivity to allow an individual to go back to college or other forms of education. Especially if they are scheduled to get out of the military in 1-2 years. It's not worth it to the military to spend money on you.

So, word to the wise. If you have dreams or aspirations that while you're in the military, to be able to "See the world" and experience the travel opportunities the military has to offer; don't expect to do a "5 and Dive". Without extending your commitment, "Officers don't re-enlist like an enlisted person does", you might be lucky to get to a 2nd base. And don't be surprised if that 2nd base happens to be overseas. Which really sucks if you plan on doing a 5 and dive. It's difficult to look for a job, do resumes, interviews, etc... when you'r 5,000 miles away. So if you want any additional training outside of what's mandatory for your job; if you want to PCS (Move to another base); want to get promoted; etc... then expect to give the military back something in return. Namely a longer commitment.