Am I making the right choice?

[sprog]

There are some schools, such as Texas A&M that indeed, do have such a following and "old grad network."

Not to speak for him, but his post didn't say there that weren't any schools outside of the SAs that have such a network.

Just that there were few. He's right.

VMI, Citadel, A&M, Norwich....the SMC schools will have a similar network of grads. It's there on active duty as well, but it won't be anywhere near the size of the SAs. If I wear a shirt with the VMI spider on it when I ride to work on Metro, chances are good that a fellow grad will spot it and tell me to strain. That is followed by the obligatory "what class are you?" etc. That is unique to the military schools, I think. It is an even bigger network for the SAs.

To the OP:
You want to be an Army officer? That's what you stress in your post. That's admirable.

Go to WP.

I think in four years, there is little chance you'd regret it. The same can't necessarily be said if you take the other route.

You got the ticket. Go take the ride.

 

[Jcleppe]

A Brownie. You get promoted to Girl Scout!

You asked for it!

Yea, I sort of left the door open for that one.

 

[scoutpilot]

There are some schools, such as Texas A&M that indeed, do have such a following and "old grad network."

There are some schools with strong alumni networks. But I'll respectfully hold firm in my assessment. You can go to most major American cities and attend a Service Academy Career Conference, which are job fairs for service academy grads only. There are grads there simply in attendance to hire other grads.

If there's a Texas A&M job fair for TAMU grads only, I'll stand corrected.

 

[sprog]

There are some schools with strong alumni networks. But I'll respectfully hold firm in my assessment. You can go to most major American cities and attend a Service Academy Career Conference, which are job fairs for service academy grads only. There are grads there simply in attendance to hire other grads.

If there's a Texas A&M job fair for TAMU grads only, I'll stand corrected.

We do have VMI networking events. I'm not sure it counts as a "job fair" per se, but I get invites from the Alumni Association fairly regularly. The purpose is for alums to hire other alums that are in "transition" (a nice way to put being unemployed). In fact, they send out the resumes of the guys seeking work who will be in attendance.

We are a lot smaller than USMA, as I said. We don't have as broad a reach, but the alums do try and help each other out.

Not for nothing, but my big-ass SEC law school university had job fairs that were only open to students and grads. They were on campus, though. And, more to the point, were not run solely by the grads of that university.

 

[scoutpilot]

We do have VMI networking events. I'm not sure it counts as a "job fair" per se, but I get invites from the Alumni Association fairly regularly. The purpose is for alums to hire other alums that are in "transition" (a nice way to put being unemployed). In fact, they send out the resumes of the guys seeking work who will be in attendance.

We are a lot smaller than USMA, as I said. We don't have as broad a reach, but the alums do try and help each other out.

Not for nothing, but my big-ass SEC law school university had job fairs that were only open to students and grads. They were on campus, though.

Agreed. In my mind, the SMCs are by and large service academies.

 

[FlyBoy1993]

There are some schools with strong alumni networks. But I'll respectfully hold firm in my assessment. You can go to most major American cities and attend a Service Academy Career Conference, which are job fairs for service academy grads only. There are grads there simply in attendance to hire other grads.

If there's a Texas A&M job fair for TAMU grads only, I'll stand corrected.

It's ok to change your criteria in mid-discussion...LOL.

Nobody in their right mind going to dismiss the value of a West Point education and networking opportunities. You made the initial point to sound as if it was unique in those qualities, as a selling point to the undecided OP.

My point is that there are, indeed, other strong networks besides that of USMA, if that is a consideration for one's future.

I've had this very discussion with our DS, in that, if you happen to go on to serve 20 years as an officer, and upon retirement you go after other opportunities- do you really think where you went to college is going to outweigh your performance as a professional leader of military men and women?

 

[MemberLG]

I did a year at a top tier college with AROTC scholarship before I went to West Point.

The bottom line, if I go back in time and had to make the choice again, I will still go to West Point.

 

[scoutpilot]

It's ok to change your criteria in mid-discussion...LOL.

Nobody in their right mind going to dismiss the value of a West Point education and networking opportunities. You made the initial point to sound as if it was unique in those qualities, as a selling point to the undecided OP.

My point is that there are, indeed, other strong networks besides that of USMA, if that is a consideration for one's future.

I've had this very discussion with our DS, in that, if you happen to go on to serve 20 years as an officer, and upon retirement you go after other opportunities- do you really think where you went to college is going to outweigh your performance as a professional leader of military men and women?

Considering I never discussed any criteria to begin with, I fail to see how I could "change" my criteria. Are there alumni networks at many schools? Yes. Heck, my wife is a member of the Yale Med alumni network. I throw their rag magazine away every month. No one is doubting their existence. My point is that the old grad network or "Ringknocker Mafia" is legendary for their lifelong commitment to graduates.

Their existence doesn't mean they're equal. There's nothing wrong with what they are, at all. My parents are Ohio State alums and the "O-H I-O" alumni brand is very strong. They bleed scarlet and gray. At the end of the day, though, the ties you find among WP grads (and USNA and USAFA and probably the CGA as well) and the network those ties have built is something you simply won't find to the same degree elsewhere, with perhaps the notable exception of SMCs like VMI, El Cid, and maybe Norwich (I'm not terribly familiar with Norwich as an institution).

Your point about what will "matter" after 20 years is not without merit. Not everyone does 20 years, though. Some people do 5. Some people THINK they want to do 5 and do 20. Many also think they want to do 20 and do 5. When you decide to get out at year 5 and want to get an MBA, West Point opens a lot of great doors and instantly puts you on the radar.

As far as "don't go to WP if you aren't sure because someone else wants it more and they deserve it as much." No, they don't deserve it as much. If they did, it would be THEIR slot to give up and not his. Secondly, anyone who tells you that you have to be "sure" is just plain full of it, and probably a little bitter and jaded.

I often tell candidates that before R-day I wasn't sure about West Point. On R-day, I was sure I wanted to go anywhere else. I got to be pretty sure I'd made a huge mistake. My buddy was sure it was for him and that his life's calling was to be in the Army. He quit plebe year. I'm going on year 8 in the Army.

It doesn't matter how you start. It's how you finish.

 

[cb7893]

I've had this very discussion with our DS, in that, if you happen to go on to serve 20 years as an officer, and upon retirement you go after other opportunities- do you really think where you went to college is going to outweigh your performance as a professional leader of military men and women?

Fly, I think that the entire body of one's professional CV would be most important.

However, Scout says in previous post "As for officership, there are many metrics. Over half of the folks who got promoted early to major this year are USMA grads. But only 22% of officers are USMA grads. You can do that math."

Assuming that ROTC/OCS Captains massively outnumber USMA captains. That suggests that the SA cred really does matter in getting beyond the rank of Captain. That is incredibly important

This is a good time to ask a couple of questions, each of which deserve its own thread:

If at age 18, a kid imagines him/herself doing 20+ years in the military as an officer, does it not make the most sense (for the purpose of military career advancement) to go to an SA?

Is there, in fact, an institutional bias against OCS/ROTC officers based on the shared experience of SA grads who dominate the top ranks?

The importance here isn't the alumni get togethers and career opportunities after AD. It is the opportunities available to be earned in those first 5-7 years after graduation.

These questions are obviously coming from a dad with zero military background, so please forgive my ignorance. Whatever the answers won't change anything for my DS's. The inside politics of large institutions exist everywhere. One can get lost in the bowels of and spit out of Dupont as easily as the US Army.

Appreciate all your comments. Cheers!

 

[FlyBoy1993]

I cannot dispute Scout's point about the promotion metrics. That is very persuasive if a candidate has that kind of career aspirations.

Absolutely agree.

 

[cb7893]

Fly, I was hoping you'd take a shot at my second question.

 

[FlyBoy1993]

Fly, I was hoping you'd take a shot at my second question.

I do not know the answer. My guess is that people would deny any bias, but facts is facts...

 

[scoutpilot]

I do not know the answer. My guess is that people would deny any bias, but facts is facts...

It's not a cut and dried situation.

 

[dunninla]

Since ROTC is available on 270 host campuses, and close to 1000 total campuses, it is fair to say the vast majority of ROTC commissioned LTs do not come from prestigious, or even well respected, colleges and Universities. Certainly less that 50 that can be said to be of a similar academic quality to West Point.

Given that, it would be relevant only to compare the academic equivalent cohort of LTs, those who commissioned out of ROTC who attended top 100 ranked schools, with the career progression of the ring knockers.

Incidentally, I have seen reports tracking officer career pathing that distinguish between ROTC "Scholarship" cadets, and non-scholarship. The differences are significant.

To sum this up, it is only fair to compare the career pathing of ring knockers vs. their ROTC academic peers... that is, those who were scholarship winners, and who attended top 100 colleges.

 

[slmart24]

I was deathly afraid of USMA but went anyway. It changed my life and I thank heaven everyday I had that opportunity.

Do something that scares you a little. Go to USMA. A ship in a safe harbor isn't good for much.

One of the best and most inspiring things I have heard all day. Thank You.

 

[patentesq]

Well, I just got a call today from one of my top ROTC schools, and they spent about 30 minutes on the phone telling me all the reasons I should go to their school instead of West Point. The issue is, they had some points. The one thing that's worried me about West Point is the lack of time for additional studying and learning outside of the core material/cadet duties. For example, I'd very much like to learn Farsi, or Dari, or Urdu, or a language of that nature in addition to Arabic. Would I have time to even attempt this at West Point? Would I have time to supplement any of the standard military education with things that would seriously help me once I get in the actual Army? Will I actually end up behind my peers in ROTC, by whom I mean ROTC cadets in universities of comparable status to West Point?

I love West Point. I have for about 3 years. Before I send in that gray card though, I want to make sure that I'm making the right choice. I'm not someone who cares about West Point's name recognition or how much it'll help me in the "civilian world", which is unfortunately all I hear when I tell people I'm planning on attending the Academy. The reason I want to go is that I've always felt that the Academy will prepare me to be a stronger officer and a better leader than ROTC would...and if that's not true, I'd rather realize that now than 4 years down the road.

My DS went through some of the same hand-wringing last year deciding between West Point and a 4-Year AROTC Scholarship. He ultimately selected West Point and absolutely loves it there. It is his home. His alma mater. He is challenged every single day, and when I look him in the eye when he's home on break, I can tell that he is LIGHT YEARS ahead of where he would have been if he had gone the ROTC route. For him, as a person who was seeking an academic challenge more than throwing hand grenades, West Point was the right choice.

My recommendation is to read scoutpilot's post very carefully. And then read it again. He provides very sound advice.

Also, my DS saw the training opportunities diminishing in ROTC as we draw down from Iraq and Afghanistan. I think he was right.

And for those who think the USMA brand extends only in the military, just know that it does not. I was a partner in a top-5 international law firm for several years, involved in recruiting. We snapped up every single USMA grad we could get our hands on. SA grads are a hot item in our nation's law firms and in business. Do not discount that.

In short, you will learn so many life lessons at USMA that ROTC simply cannot match. The closest thing in this regard are the SMCs (cadet-led organizations where you practice leadership with your peers before graduation). The concept of the honor code at both the SAs and the SMCs is a value that you will draw upon your entire life.

 

[BigNick]

Read and re-read the note by Scoutpilot. As a WP graduate and veteran of many years in the Army, I agree with everything he said.

Many well meaning people on this forum have not gone to WP or been in the Army. Their advice - although sincere - is not based on the experience that can only be obtained by "being there".

I was impressed with one of the statements from Scoutpilot:
"Why did this school call to convince you? Because they know they have to convince you. West Point didn't call you because they don't have to. USMA is an aspirational goal. This other school wants you to come there because they think you're out of their league. Do you want to be a feather in their cap? All that means is they know you could've done better and are glad to have you. Sure, the ROTC school will provide you more "fun" and "college-ish" opportunities. But in 10 years you won't remember most of the beer you drank or parties you attended. You'll remember everyone from your USMA class, though. They'll be like kin."

It is normal for cansdidates to look at all of their options and ask the key questions about WP and ROTC. However, I would say that if you REALLY belong at WP you know it in your gut. If you do not have that burning desire, take the road to ROTC and leave that WP slot to someone who has that desire and dedication.

 

[Jcleppe]

Since ROTC is available on 270 host campuses, and close to 1000 total campuses, it is fair to say the vast majority of ROTC commissioned LTs do not come from prestigious, or even well respected, colleges and Universities. Certainly less that 50 that can be said to be of a similar academic quality to West Point.

Given that, it would be relevant only to compare the academic equivalent cohort of LTs, those who commissioned out of ROTC who attended top 100 ranked schools, with the career progression of the ring knockers.

Incidentally, I have seen reports tracking officer career pathing that distinguish between ROTC "Scholarship" cadets, and non-scholarship. The differences are significant.

To sum this up, it is only fair to compare the career pathing of ring knockers vs. their ROTC academic peers... that is, those who were scholarship winners, and who attended top 100 colleges.

Do you really believe that or was that a tongue in cheek comment.

You want people to believe that only cadets that graduate from some self perceived elite university can compete on a level playing field for advancement. You might want to let the number of cadets from those elite schools that didn't make the cut for Active Duty or missed the top 10% let alone the 20% that because of their school choice they will be sent to the head of the line.

It's a given that the old boy's network will live on, no one can argue that. The fact that people believe that only certain universities and ROTC programs can produce officers worthy of advancement gives the term elite a whole new meaning.

 

[scoutpilot]

You want people to believe that only cadets that graduate from some self perceived elite university can compete on a level playing field for advancement.

His point is not without merit. We don't believe that a guy with a business degree from Southern Mississippi will compete on a level playing field with a guy who holds an MBA from Harvard. Why do we believe it's different for the military?

You might want to let the number of cadets from those elite schools that didn't make the cut for Active Duty or missed the top 10% let alone the 20% that because of their school choice they will be sent to the head of the line.

Though I know had some sarcasm in there, you're talking about OUTLIERS and he's talking about AVERAGES. There will be idiots from every commissioning source, including the SAs and Ivy Leagues. There will be generals from almost every commissioning source as well. The question at hand is one of averages, and on AVERAGE, the cadets from more elite institutions will be better equipped to excel at the myriad tasks which make an effective Army officer. This is a career that demands excellent writing skills, strong analytical foundations, and a broad base of knowledge. The mean cadet from USMA or Cornell is will have those skills to a greater degree than the mean cadet from West Idaho Tech.

It's a given that the old boy's network will live on, no one can argue that. The fact that people believe that only certain universities and ROTC programs can produce officers worthy of advancement gives the term elite a whole new meaning.

It's not a question of "can" but a question of "are far more likely to." It's not a question of the institutions themselves, but of the type of student those institutions attract. The fact remains that some schools attract better cadets than others.

And so what if that makes those institutions elite? This is the world's best military. Elite is what we do.

 

[FlyBoy1993]

His point is not without merit. We don't believe that a guy with a business degree from Southern Mississippi will compete on a level playing field with a guy who holds an MBA from Harvard. Why do we believe it's different for the military?

If you're competing for a "Major" slot, as I stated earlier, wouldn't your body of work be immensely more important than where you went to school 15 years prior?

I am not disputing the numbers, but rather the rationale for dismissing years of performance from which to rate their leadership and performance capability because the outstanding officer just happened to go to Colorado State or Illinois.

That doesn't compute, therefore it is probably sound reasoning in today's world.