Am I making the right choice?

[BigNick]

Everyone has the right to express their opinions and post on this board. However, it is interesting to read the very extensive posts with detailed analysis, outright guessing, unproven generalizations, and varied opinions based on VERY LIMITED OR NO REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE IN THE ARMY, ROTC, OR WEST POINT. Having a son or daughter in ROTC, WP or the Army gives you a LITTLE insight but you must live that life to have a real gut feeling. It is like explaining to someone what it is like to be in combat, or have a baby – you must experience those events to understand them. The detailed analysis in these posts are food for thought, but in my view mostly an academic exercise and not very worthwhile. I sent some of this analysis to my son who is currently a West Point Cadet and he said he and his roommates had a good laugh. They felt that people were grossly “over-thinking” the issue.
The military and West Point in my view is a calling – just as being a teacher, religious leader, Doctor, etc are callings. You enter this career path because it is what you truly think you want to do with your life. I understand that young 17-18 year-old men and women do not yet have enough experience or information to be 100% sure about their life work, but they must have some “feeling in their gut” that West Point is what they really want. Based on my years experience in this process, I believe that most of our WP candidates have that feeling. If you are “on the fence” about West Point vs. AROTC – both of which are legitimate and honorable options-I suggest you take ROTC. Leave the West Point slots to those who have that great desire and motivation to be a West Pointer.
BOTTOM LINE: I am thankful that we have young men and women willing to serve their country.
I wish the best to all of our candidates no matter which path they choose.

 

[Jcleppe]

Everyone has the right to express their opinions and post on this board. However, it is interesting to read the very extensive posts with detailed analysis, outright guessing, unproven generalizations, and varied opinions based on VERY LIMITED OR NO REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE IN THE ARMY, ROTC, OR WEST POINT. Having a son or daughter in ROTC, WP or the Army gives you a LITTLE insight but you must live that life to have a real gut feeling. It is like explaining to someone what it is like to be in combat, or have a baby – you must experience those events to understand them. The detailed analysis in these posts are food for thought, but in my view mostly an academic exercise and not very worthwhile. I sent some of this analysis to my son who is currently a West Point Cadet and he said he and his roommates had a good laugh. They felt that people were grossly “over-thinking” the issue.
The military and West Point in my view is a calling – just as being a teacher, religious leader, Doctor, etc are callings. You enter this career path because it is what you truly think you want to do with your life. I understand that young 17-18 year-old men and women do not yet have enough experience or information to be 100% sure about their life work, but they must have some “feeling in their gut” that West Point is what they really want. Based on my years experience in this process, I believe that most of our WP candidates have that feeling. If you are “on the fence” about West Point vs. AROTC – both of which are legitimate and honorable options-I suggest you take ROTC. Leave the West Point slots to those who have that great desire and motivation to be a West Pointer.
BOTTOM LINE: I am thankful that we have young men and women willing to serve their country.
I wish the best to all of our candidates no matter which path they choose.

Not quite sure why you assume that some of us who post have not been in the Military or "Lived the life" as you say, or had to make these same decisions at some point in our lives.

Why is it so important that just because a young person had a question and is smart enough to weigh all the options by becoming more informed. should automatically choose one over the other because in your opinion he is not dedicated enough.

 

[patentesq]

jcleppe, I was a bit puzzled by that post as well, and I hope BigNick's comments were not directed to anyone on this thread because most of the posters on this thread are either current military or former military.

This thread is by far one of the best threads I've seen on SAF on this issue, and your detailed posts and those of dunninla, kinnem, etc. will likely be extraordinarily helpful for candidates who go through this same thought process every year. I know my DS did, and he is FOURTH GENERATION MILITARY! (and I certainly don't have all the answers, and I frequently learn new things from you, dunninla, kinnem, and many many others here). In my view, whenever the posts are supported by logic, those are the ones that are usually much more persuasive than than those which summarily dismiss the views of others based on factually incorrect assumptions (otherwise known as the extremely unenlightening and uninspiring "I'm right, and the rest of you are idiots" argument).

The viewpoints of all are welcome here on SAF -- parents, military, current cadets, candidates, siblings, and even girl/boy friends! Each brings a unique perspective to the question posed and each is worthy of discussion and evaluation. I can say for certain that there are parents out there who haven't served a day in their life who know more about particular aspects of cadet life and even the military than I ever will. For example, there are civilians who work in the admissions office at USMA. Does anyone really think that the civilian staff knows less than a USMA grad who hasn't been a cadet for 20 years? Does the mother who currently has USMA cadet and an ROTC cadet seriously not know more about the issues presented in this thread than the childless grad who left USMA 10 years ago?

In any event, I share your admiration of the level of sophistication that jwilkes101 has approached this issue, because by posing the question, he obviously understands that decisionmaking is essentially a five-step process (excluding the "receive mission" and "execute mission" steps). For the benefit of those candidates following this thread who might be making the same decision as jwilkes101, here they are:


1. Understand the objective and ascertain time-frame for deciding (in most cases, candidates have several months).

2. Develop as many options/alternatives as possible during the time-frame available (this means every candidate should apply for ROTC scholarships, SA appointments, and civilian schools).

3. Compare your options once they are fully materialized (compare pros and cons of SA and ROTC).

4. Pick your best option (and this is particularized to each individual).


These are the time-honored steps of proper decisionmaking. Although decisionmaking techniques can become quite sophisticated, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_making#Decision-making_steps, this thread should be a model for those thinking about which commissioning path to follow. Going with "the feeling in your gut" (some might ascribe the phrase "knee-jerk") frequently results in poor decisions. And I think you'd agree with me that there are many in the Army officer ranks who have never learned how to properly make decisions, even those with 30 years of service.

Having properly done his homework, if jwilkes101 does attend USMA, he will probably be the LEAST likely candidate to ever second-guess his decision about whether USMA was right for him. He will enter R-Day with his eyes looking confidently ahead.

While I have not conducted a survey, I suspect that many of the folks who drop out of West Point every year are those who never really seriously asked the question that jwilkes101 has posed here. In my view, every candidate owes it to their peers to assimilate as much information as possible about the various commissioning paths and then make an INFORMED decision BEFORE they turn in the USMA acceptance card. If a candidate drops out before graduation because she or he never asked the question that jwilkes101 has asked here, she or he would have very likely denied another candidate with the very samd opportunity. Not a cool thing.

 

[cb7893]

There has been a lot of discussion about how the school choice can effect promotion rates, branch selection, and provide a boost in civilian life. While all these factors play into the equation these cadets should not forget the most important point:

It's not about promotions, it's not about medals, it's not about how you are perceived by your peers. It is about being the best officer you can be for the men and women under your command. They don't care what the diploma reads hanging on your wall, they care about how you will lead them, back them up, and respect their work. It's really that simple.

Why did it take seven pages of posts for one person to state this?

 

[dunninla]

. I sent some of this analysis to my son who is currently a West Point Cadet and he said he and his roommates had a good laugh. .

Great. A Plebe at West Point is in a position to laugh at ROTC and how inferior it is, without having ever participated in ROTC. Is this the sort of disrespect and lack of critical thinking you approve of?

. The military and West Point in my view is a calling – just as being a teacher, religious leader, Doctor, etc are callings. You enter this career path because it is what you truly think you want to do with your life.

I don't disagree with that, but not sure what that has to do with West Point vs. Army ROTC, unless you are implying that West Point is the destination for those with a true calling, and ROTC is for those who don't have a true calling, are unsure of their calling, or are hedging their bets and not willing to give it 100%. Are you implying that it is not possible for those who are 100% sure they want to spend the next 30 years of their life serving as Officers in the Army, and are 100% committed to this goal, to correctly select ROTC as the commissioning path?

This is starting to feel like a "true believer" (your denomination) vs. "false believers" (every other denomination) in religion. I'd hate to see what your son and his buddies think about the idiot that would choose Annapolis over West Point.

 

[scoutpilot]

Great. A Plebe at West Point is in a position to laugh at ROTC and how inferior it is, without having ever participated in ROTC. Is this the sort of disrespect and lack of critical thinking you approve of?

Enough. Stop that garbage right now. This is a great thread with many reasoned, useful viewpoints and I'll not have you mucking it up with any Fox News antics. That's not at all what he said, and you know that. You took it completely out of context for some reason. His soon was not laughing at ROTC and you 100% know that from the rest of the paragraph he posted. If you want to pick a fight to amuse yourself, go suggest breast enhancement to your wife or something. This thread is too useful to have locked and lost due to petty squabbling.

I'd hate to see what your son and his buddies think about the idiot that would choose Annapolis over West Point.

Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

 

[cb7893]

Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

I stand by what I posted earlier, with great affection.

 

[cb7893]

I sent some of this analysis to my son who is currently a West Point Cadet and he said he and his roommates had a good laugh. They felt that people were grossly “over-thinking” the issue.

Until my DS's have raised children or have Scout's "street cred", they will concentrate on what matters in their lives, not the intramural tusslings of their dad.

If I sought validation from one of my DS's for a point I was making on an internet forum, they would consider my opinions even less.

BOTTOM LINE: I am thankful that we have young men and women willing to serve their country. I wish the best to all of our candidates no matter which path they choose.

Hoping that was the sentiment you left with your DS.

 

[dunninla]

Enough. Stop that garbage

point taken. I took the post a different way, but can see both possiblities.

 

[TheDukeOfEarl]

This thread is too useful to have locked and lost due to petty squabbling.

THIS.

 

[CGBear87]

Enough. Stop that garbage right now. This is a great thread with many reasoned, useful viewpoints and I'll not have you mucking it up with any Fox News antics. That's not at all what he said, and you know that. You took it completely out of context for some reason. His soon was not laughing at ROTC and you 100% know that from the rest of the paragraph he posted. If you want to pick a fight to amuse yourself, go suggest breast enhancement to your wife or something. This thread is too useful to have locked and lost due to petty squabbling.



Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

Where are we going with this? Nowhere good, that's for sure. I think we have beat this dead horse. Comments like these are shameful and provide no help to the OP.

 

[scoutpilot]

Where are we going with this? Nowhere good, that's for sure. I think we have beat this dead horse. Comments like these are shameful and provide no help to the OP.

Not sure how cutting off petty squabbling counts as "shameful" in anyone's book, but I will politely tell you that if you don't like the direction of this thread you are free to head back to the CGA forum.

As for my second comment, if you can't take a joke....well, that's a problem I can't help you with.

 

[Dixieland]

Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

Judge Smails.

 

[Jcleppe]

Not sure how cutting off petty squabbling counts as "shameful" in anyone's book, but I will politely tell you that if you don't like the direction of this thread you are free to head back to the CGA forum.

As for my second comment, if you can't take a joke....well, that's a problem I can't help you with.

I think it may have been the "Breast enhancement" comment that spurred the comment rather then the attempt at a joke. If I remember right I think CGBear has a son on the NWL for WP, so not sure why they'd need to go to the CGA forum.

Just saying....not arguing, don't throw anything at me.

 

[CGBear87]

Not sure how cutting off petty squabbling counts as "shameful" in anyone's book, but I will politely tell you that if you don't like the direction of this thread you are free to head back to the CGA forum.

As for my second comment, if you can't take a joke....well, that's a problem I can't help you with.

...wow.

"SUNY Nowhere"
"Birdpoop State"
"Fox News antics"
"Breast Enhancement"
"The world needs ditch diggers, too"
"...head back to the CGA Forum"

Keep typing, Scout. You are making my point. You aren't cutting off petty squabbling... you are engaging in it. In fairness, you aren't the only one, just the last one I read.

jwilkes101... if by chance you are still following this thread, I'm going to tell you what nearly every other respondent on this thread already has... you can't make a bad choice. I have have grads and career officers from all the SA's in my immediate family and circle of friends and I am one myself. However, the best officer I know is my oldest brother who did AROTC at what ScoutPilot would probably think of as "Birdpoop State". SA's or ROTC don't make good officers. Good officers make good officers. If WP is your dream, then go there and make yourself a good officer. If you aren't willing to "pay" what WP "costs", then go do ROTC and make yourself a good officer. (There will be "costs" there, too) Your country needs you, son. Good Luck!

 

[scoutpilot]

I think it may have been the "Breast enhancement" comment that spurred the comment rather then the attempt at a joke. If I remember right I think CGBear has a son on the NWL for WP, so not sure why they'd need to go to the CGA forum.

Just saying....not arguing, don't throw anything at me.

I will chuck my shoe at you at the first chance. On second thought, I'll throw my putter. On third thought...YOU'LL GET NOTHING AND LIKE IT!

...wow.

"SUNY Nowhere" Ever been to SUNY Fredonia? Yeah...I stand by that one...

"Birdpoop State" Believe it or not, there are colleges out there in this country that aren't very good. I wouldn't think that's news to anyone, and to pretend that those institutions are on par with our nation's finest institutions is foolish and ignorant of reality. So yes...Birdpoop State (a term, in a slightly more crass form, which was coined by BG Dan Kaufman when he was the Dean at USMA and used to great effect during his annual briefing to cadets comparing the USMA academic program to other schools)

"Fox News antics" Oh, did you think Fox News was honest and unbiased reportage? Last time I checked, they parse quotes and remove context in an effort to create issues...hence my use of this comment.

"Breast Enhancement" Well that's just funny.

"The world needs ditch diggers, too" That is, too. Dixieland caught the reference (Caddy Shack, for you kids...)

"...head back to the CGA Forum" Notice how everyone was doing fine until now? If you have nothing to offer in a thread that was otherwise great and informative and filled with reasoned and well-made arguments, that's probably sage advice.

 

[CGBear87]

OK. You win. I'll just go back and row with the other slaves and let you resume your "reasoned and well-made arguments".

I think right before I so rudely interrupted and soiled your field of honor you were in the process of telling someone (else) to shut up...

So, Crouch... Touch... Pause... Engage!

 

[greentrees]

Let's get back on track and address what jlwilkes wanted to know.

While DS is at USAFA, he is currently at USMA as an exchange cadet - something NOT possible with ROTC.

I was AFROTC 25+ years ago, #2 grad from my Det that commissioned 25 2Lts that year; after graduating I was on the support side, not a flier. I felt the USAFA grads in my career area had an advantage starting out over me; they had more experience in military environment than I did and knew how to handle themselves better.

Has that changed; I don't know. But I do know DS has more opportunities to do real world AF stuff at USAFA than I did in college in ROTC. After his first year he spent 2 weeks flying gliders, 3 weeks survival training. Last summer he spent 4 weeks at Al Udeid AB, Qatar shadowing airmen to Sr Officers. Flew on a C-5 supply run to Kuwait; spent a Saturday packing pallets with the Army to be sent to Afghanistan (says the most rewarding thing he's done so far). This summer he will have powered flight and be a flight commander for training. Next year he will have jump. Can you do all that in ROTC? Don't think so.

Academically he's all over the place with classes - core stuff he'd never take unless required, but majors classes that are amazing. While at USMA he's doing Platoon Operations -- completely out of his element, but learning stuff that will help him in the Air Force, not just if he was in the Army.

And as for the real college experience, DS is enjoying himself just fine with the friends he's made. At at USMA right now, getting to NYC is pretty easy. At USAFA, he spent many a weekend at Keystone snowboarding.

If you can afford it, go look at both schools again. Really look at what's going on at each school.

The only other comment I have, is if you choose USMA, finish there. Don't go, leave after a year or two. Nothing wrong with doing your 5 years after graduation and getting out.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Oxford22]

I recall reading a handbook which specified the level of training ROTC/Academy cadets received (in terms of military science).

Not sure if this is correct, but don't most ROTC students begin with MS I/II while academy cadets' training is equivalent to MS III/IV?

By the way, almost the same boat as you jlwilkes; chose WP.

 

[Jcleppe]

greentrees,

Sounds like your son has had some great experiences in AFROTC, not sure a USMA cadet would have those opportunities which is what the OP is looking at.

ROTC has changed a bit over the years, no longer are RITC grads considered Reserve Officers, they are now commissioned Regular Officers which means they do not have to apply for regular officer status while serving. The opportunities are there for both SA and ROTC grads equally. Your son has truely had some wonderful opportunities so far.

Oxford22

I'm not sure you can really equate the ROTC MS classes to the USMA, the training may be different and focus on different things at different times during the 4 years. A lot has been said about whether the Military training at WP is better then ROTC, my view, and I will admit I did not go to WP so don't jump on me for that, is that the training is different. WP grads I am sure will have the upper hand on all things Garrison, how could they not, they live it 24/7. When it comes to leadership and tactical training I will also admit that on percentage the level of skilled officers is probably. ROTC commissions almost 5 times the officers each year then WP, the percentage of highly skilled officers form ROTC is probably lower the WP. I would contend that the total number of skilled officers from ROTC would be on par with WP.

ROTC is not just filled with cadets that could not get into WP, while there are a lot of cadets that were QNS by WP there are many that either turned down WP or could have gone that chose ROTC for various reasons. The better test as to how a new officer will perform will be their BOLC and Branch training. WP, ROTC, and OCS will all attend their BOLC's together, the trainers will not care where the new Lt came from, to them everything before that point won't matter, it's a "What can you show me now" sort of thing. It would be interesting to see the data on how the new Lt's from each commissioning source performs in these schools, how do these Lt's rank at Ranger School.

I will say one thing about the difference between SA and other commissioning sources, and this I do have some experience in. Academy Grads tend to hold a closer tie to there school after graduation, it has been such an overwhelming part of their life for 4 years, SA Grads tend to gravitate to each other, and rightfully so, they shared a very common experience. What a SA grad went through 15 years ago is the same as one that just graduated. ROTC and OCS grads tend to put school behind them, unless they happen to be stationed with someone form their school the only common bond is that they both went to college, just not the same one. ROTC and OCS grads tend to move on, there is less of a need to group with their own, not that that's a bad thing, sharing stories of the SA is tradition I'm told. One of my best friends when I was in the Coast Guard, a GCA grad, said the ring was like a magnet, if there was another CGA grad on base it would find them.

In the end the choice you make just has to be right for you. Don't choose one over the other because you think one will make you better. If you go and are miserable you will not succeed no matter if it is WP or not. You need to go where you think you will strive, only then will you reach your full potential. If that choice is WP, then great, if it's ROTC, great as well, if you work hard you will succeed in either.

Just as a side note, nearly 800 of the Active Duty commissioned officers from ROTC this year graduated in the top 20% in the country, this is not a group of under achievers, and it is not an easy thing to do. The Top 10% is even harder,these are cadets with average GPA's of 3.6, PT average near 300 plus, and very high leadership and tactical scores, These new LT's will do just fine, just as those from WP, and they will do it together.