Another career bites the dust due to stupidity

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Look what distractions this incident has cause on the Big "E":

Several posters had changed their Facebook profile pictures to Captain Owens' official Navy photograph.

Wes Stooksbury, one of those who changed their photos, wrote, "To whichever 'loyal' crewmember has betrayed your captain: It's stunts like that that make me wish the days of corporal punishment were still around. You need to be keel-hauled. Shame on you for potentially destroying at least one great man's career, possibly two now that they have opened an investigation into Admiral [Larry] Rice's involvement. But, alas, you hid behind anonymity like the coward you are."
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Navy1981 said:
BUT!!! Of all those videos, there is 10 seconds that is going to hang Captain Honors; the part where he makes the following statement "Over the years I've gotten several complaints about inappropriate materials in these videos, never to me personally but, gutlessly, through other channels."
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Not so sure. I would think just the opposite. A statement that he had personally received complaints and done nothing about it would certainly be more damning. I can think of no "other channel" of a complaint which would terminate with the XO. All official complaints would terminate with the skipper. Anything going through the Chief's mess would end up between the CMC and the skipper. Actually, I think your statemen, if true, is more apt to bring down the skipper than the XO. However, I believe the statement was nothing more than posturing akin to the statement that the CO and Admiral did not know about the videos. Of course they knew and were watching them just like everyone else.

I do agree though that the other 19 hours and 52 minutes are most definitely tame by comparison. Willing to bet a paycheck that the movie the night of the dirty toilet episode was CADDYSHACK.
 
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To all who have posted on this topic, thank you for all the insightful opinions and ideas. As a Candidate for USNA class of 2015 this is very good to keep in mind. What seems to be reinforced throughout the whole discussion is that there is a time for "boys will be boys" activities to some extent; the important thing is that they are done with a small group of trusted individuals and NOT recorded. That's just what I take away from all this.
 
Thankfully, this man is no longer in command.

Based on statements made by United States Fleet Forces Command Adm. John C. Harvey Jr:

  • "lack of judgment and professionalism"
  • “calls into question his character"
  • "completely undermines his credibility to continue to serve effectively in command”
his career in the US Navy is finished as well.

Well done, Adm Harvey.
 
Mongo said:
A very interesting take on the entire episode:

http://blog.usni.org/2011/01/03/if-he-is-a-problem-then-we-have-a-problem/

And since it is from the US Naval Institute, I am most positive that many of the comments are from career officers and probably even a few of the 99.99% "ringknockers" whom a few of you claim would not approve.
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Mongo, is this facetious:
Surface and Sub Commanding Officers can hide issues if sly – in aviation, nosomuch.

As “Big XO,” his videos and the nature of his videos were not a secret. Not to his Shipmates from E-1 to O-8. Anyone who has deployed on a CV/CVN knows this.

That is the issue.

Let’s not tell each other small untruths on this. Don’t insult each other’s intelligence and don’t insult the taxpayer.

While the videos were made, the Commander of the ENTERPRISE STRIKE GROUP was Rear Admiral Ray Spicer, USN (UPDATE: other sources have it as VADM Daniel Halloway, USN. Perhaps an and/or – but not critical to the story). CAPT Honor’s Commanding officer was Rear Admiral Lawrence Rice, USN (Ret.). Again – just to be clear – nothing on these videos were unknown to the STRIKE GROUP Commander (embarked ENTERPRISE) or the Commanding Officer. I make a declaritive statement such as that because I have been deployed on Carriers and I can also declare that water is wet. If I am wrong … then … well … wow.
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Truly a sad day for our military. A truly outstanding Naval Officer's career brought down by the press and by civilian political correctness. Unlike the perception of few members of this forum, carrier skippers don't grow on trees. They are groomed. Only four or so per year of the very best and brightest. One of the best was just thrown out by those who don't have a clue as to what his mission and priorities were.

How far back will the malcontents go to dig up dirt? Are the midshipmen producers and actors in Army-Navy spirit videos safe? Once a month while underway, the air wing gathers to roast each other and let off steam. Absolutely nothing is sacred. It is called Fo'c'sle Follies and is comprised largely of videoed skits of professional quality and extremely raunchy compared to the present example. The skipper and Admiral usually attend. I know a lot of good Naval officers who are probably really sweating right now. Will they all be relieved for laughing at the VFA-211 Checkmates 'gay' flight suits which Capt Honors was poking fun at? Incidentially, VFA-211 was Honors' squadron command. He was making fun of himself as was the case in most of the skits. Will they go back ten years from now to forums such as these and see where active duty posters were making comments about 100 Navy sailors going to sea and 50 couples coming home or on this very thread a comment about the subject video, "I thought it was the carriers dating service video" and deny them command? Definitely as homophobic as a comment about a 'gay' flight suit.
 
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Mongo said:
A truly outstanding Naval Officer's career....
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  • "profound lack of judgment and professionalism"
  • “calls into question his character"
  • "completely undermines his credibility to continue to serve effectively in command”
  • "lost confidence in his ability to lead effectively"
  • "demonstrating exceptionally poor judgment"
 
Luigi -
Please explain how and why you now disagree with your buddy Cdr Salamander.
K Thanks.
 
Navy begins a broader video investigation

From today's WaPo:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/04/AR2011010405432.html?hpid=topnews

Harvey will lead a broader investigation into whether other senior Navy officials knew about the four-year-old videos, which aired on the ship's closed-circuit television, and why they failed to take disciplinary action against Honors. The probe is likely to focus on whether Rear Adm. Lawrence Rice, who was captain of the ship in 2007, and his immediate commander, now-retired Rear Adm. Raymond A. Spicer, had seen the videos or received complaints about them.
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Good. He needs to find each and every officer who knew, viewed and laughed. Fire 'em all. Lots of hypocracy out there.
 
Mongo said:
Read down far enough in the comments and you will get to my favorite:
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As to the "Navy becoming the Air Force," I'd point out that the USAF isn't as antiseptic as some on here would point out. Probably there is more of a PC influence than the Navy due to the structure of the force, but not in every corner. As a former missileer, I can report that there was an "unofficial crew log" at every launch control center which contained stuff that I wouldn't show my mother. Quite frankly, living in North Dakota during the 11-month winter, I was glad for it.

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but the job of the military is to blow sh#t up and kill the enemies of our nation. As such, it requires a bit of intestinal fortitude, and I don't think we should be so easily offended by a few off-color jokes or uses of words which, in the civilian world anyway, would be offensive (although I'm sure many of you have heard someone describe something stupid as "gay" as civilians).

We all have to deal with BS at work, including PC stuff. That is just part of doing business in the modern world. When we go home at night or on the weekend, we may watch a Rated "R" movie, or go to a comedy show where the "f-bomb" is a featured character. We may consume an alcoholic beverage while watching a sports game, and in so doing we might refer negatively to the sexuality of the referees or the opposing team. The world is not Disney, and I for one don't want it to be. Amazingly, I'm still able to be professional in my job even though I like to blow off steam on my own time. The sailors on Big E don't have that luxury. For six months, they are stuck on that ship working all hours of the day without weekends off. They have to get their fun with movies, the internet (if they have that), and shooting the breeze with shipmates. It isn't fair to expect them to live in a 24-hour PC environment, and if watching toliet humor skits makes people smile, I don't see the problem. Even if a minority of sailors are offended, we've got to realize that something will always offend somebody.

Some of the posts on here want Capt. Honors to be crucified, and it looks like the media-aware Navy brass are responding to that. Some call the videos in "poor taste" or "crude," and point out the gross-out stuff that was part of the content. Well, maybe it was in poor taste. But maybe, a low-brow, gross-out gag in "poor taste" would be exactly what I would need to make me smile after I just worked 12 hours on the flight deck in 98 degree heat. I'm pretty sure Will Ferrell has made a career of supplying this type of humor to the masses (including a gag involving cat feces in the film "Anchorman"). Should we not allow sailors to watch his movies while on ship? What if the CO allowed it as the ship's movie for a night, and even laughed at it? Is that "poor judgment," because a few religious sailors might take offense?

This whole thing seems like a mountain being made out of a molehill.

I think Capt. Honors sounds like a guy I'd be happy to serve under. He clearly is a competent aviator and ship handler given that he has all the qualifications Mongo spoke of. He also seems like he was able to do all this without being a complete uptight a-hole, and that the vast majority of the sailors loved him because of this. Clearly someone didn't like him, as this is news, but with 6,000 sailors under him, not everyone is going to like all of his decisions. Maybe Capt. Honors masted the guy/girl who leaked it, who knows?

One of my wing commanders on active duty was not a career missileer, but had tracked in from space ops. late in her career. She was a "golden child" in the USAF's eyes, but didn't qualify on Minuteman III until she was an O-6 (and she didn't ever pull a full alert tour at a site). She was by-the-book on administration, and the majority of crewmembers couldn't stand her. She didn't know what it was like to be in the trenches as a missileer, and she ran the unit that way. From this experience, I'd have rather had a guy like Capt. Honors, who had "been there" and would know to run the unit. I had two other wing commanders who had "been there," and they were great.

In the end, being "professional" means being able to put bombs on target when called upon, and being able to lead your guys to accomplish that mission. Living a monastic life is not part of the equation, in my opinion, and Honors seems like a guy who could get the job done with the VAST VAST majority of his sailors willing to do whatever they could to help Big E do her mission.

This is, of course, just my opinion. I'm with Mongo on this.
 
I don't think anyone is disagreeing that PC has gone too far. I'm about as anti-PC as they come. I also believe that the majority of the filming was perfectly find. I consider sexual innuendos to actually be considered "Neutral". Everyone is sexual in one form or another. All of that can be justified. But there is a line or lines that shouldn't be crossed. Implying that you don't care if you offend anyone, is sort of crossing the line. "At that position of authority". Shouldn't have even addressed possibly offending people. That shows that even you, the presenter, acknowledges that you're about to cross the line. Using personal slurs; whether it's Fag, WOP, Spic, etc... calling females the "B" word or blacks the "N" word, etc... are crossing the line. Now it's no longer a topic that is neutral. Now you are getting personal. Again; all of the sexual innuendos are indeed neutral. People need to get over that. That isn't directed personally towards anyone individually. But when you start using personal expletives, then in my opinion, you've crossed the line. Just my position.
 
Nobody expects them to live a monastic life. Nobody has said they should, yet there is a time and place for everything.

Honors opted to openly say that he knew he had offended people. His job is to lead everyone, not just some of them. You can't be an effective leader will you offend them and after offending them tell them to go screw themselves. That is what he did when he admitted that and called them gutless, and told them to hug themselves for the next 20 minutes.

Gee, thanks Boss, at least I know through intimidation to keep my mouth shut if I want to get promoted under your watch!

At least we can all agree he gave fair warning on his personal stance regarding this issue.

The AF has for decades been called the "corporate branch", but I would be the 1st to say, when they are hanging out in the hootch or at the club, they are not angels.

They became more anti-septic back in the 90's after Tailhook. They were not about to be the next branch to be on the nightly news day in and day out. They learned from the Navy's mistakes and it is a shame that the Navy didn't learn from their own mistake.

To me I would give him a pass if this was done at an aircrew meeting on Friday night while they were having a few beers, and someone used their phone to take video of this. However, it wasn't. It was pre-meditated and he knew what he was saying to a general audience of 5K. He didn't care if he offended anyone, and again worse yet, he acknowledged that he had continue to do even after people complained.

To him it was his way or the highway. That is not a leader.

For him, not only is his Navy career over, but he will have a hard time getting a 2nd career going. He could have written his ticket for his 2nd career, but now he will be seen as politically incorrect and companies like Rand, Raytheon, SAIC, Lockheed, even the govt would not touch him with a 10 foot pole.

I hope he likes his retirement pay as an O6 because that is what he will live on for quite sometime.

In case anyone else didn't see it now Glenn Close is involved because she was informed that she is in these videos. SHe had visited the E and was video taped, but never knew that her image would be used in this manner

"I am distraught that my image has been used to perpetuate something that I abhor," said Close via a statement that her publicist, Catherine Olim, gave to Kelly.

"The cynical, unauthorized use of my image in this video is deeply offensive and insulting, and was the result of a seemingly innocent request of me during a visit to the aircraft carrier over four years ago."
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Also, for me, I have an issue with this because I am sure he had to reprimand sailors for sexual harassment, yet somehow he could not put 2 +2 together and realize that these videos could be seen as a wink and a nod regarding sexual harassment. There are women on that carrier, he created an environment where a logical female sailor would say, no reason to report this because he jokes about it in his morale boosting videos. If I as a woman had to endure watching his show, and worked with guys who made jokes about my breast size or anything sexual, I would keep my mouth shut because I would not expect support from the hierarchy in this issue. So tell me, how is that a good leader? How can you say he is leading when people are too afraid to speak.

You know what, the more I think about it, the more I know exactly what to call his remarks ...BULLYING. Again, it really does come down to that 1 statement of I know I have offended people, but guess what...go screw yourselves because I matter more than you do.

"Over the years, I've gotten several complaints about inappropriate material during these videos - never to me personally, but gutlessly through other channels," Honors said in one of the videos. "This evening, all of you bleeding hearts - and you, fag SWO boy - why don't you just go ahead and hug yourselves for the next 20 minutes or so, because there is a really good chance you're going to be offended tonight."
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Imagine being a male SWO who reported to him. Imagine the crew just gossiping around trying to determine if there was a particular officer he was inferring in that video. If you can't say he crossed the line with these comments, what exactly to you would be crossing the line?
 
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Christcorp said:
Using personal slurs; whether it's Fag, WOP, Spic, etc... calling females the "B" word or blacks the "N" word, etc... are crossing the line. Now it's no longer a topic that is neutral. Now you are getting personal.
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I'd say it depends on context, but I see your point.
 
Pima said:
Nobody expects them to live a monastic life. Nobody has said they should, yet there is a time and place for everything.

Honors opted to openly say that he knew he had offended people. His job is to lead everyone, not just some of them. You can't be an effective leader will you offend them and after offending them tell them to go screw themselves. That is what he did when he admitted that and called them gutless, and told them to hug themselves for the next 20 minutes.

Gee, thanks Boss, at least I know through intimidation to keep my mouth shut if I want to get promoted under your watch!

At least we can all agree he gave fair warning on his personal stance regarding this issue.

The AF has for decades been called the "corporate branch", but I would be the 1st to say, when they are hanging out in the hootch or at the club, they are not angels.

They became more anti-septic back in the 90's after Tailhook. They were not about to be the next branch to be on the nightly news day in and day out. They learned from the Navy's mistakes and it is a shame that the Navy didn't learn from their own mistake.

To me I would give him a pass if this was done at an aircrew meeting on Friday night while they were having a few beers, and someone used their phone to take video of this. However, it wasn't. It was pre-meditated and he knew what he was saying to a general audience of 5K. He didn't care if he offended anyone, and again worse yet, he acknowledged that he had continue to do even after people complained.

To him it was his way or the highway. That is not a leader.

For him, not only is his Navy career over, but he will have a hard time getting a 2nd career going. He could have written his ticket for his 2nd career, but now he will be seen as politically incorrect and companies like Rand, Raytheon, SAIC, Lockheed, even the govt would not touch him with a 10 foot pole.

I hope he likes his retirement pay as an O6 because that is what he will live on for quite sometime.

In case anyone else didn't see it now Glenn Close is involved because she was informed that she is in these videos. SHe had visited the E and was video taped, but never knew that her image would be used in this manner
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PIMA, the NJROTC are always looking for good SNI's
 
True and he already will be loved by all of them because he has the HS humor down pat to a tee!
 
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