Another career bites the dust due to stupidity

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Originally Posted by Christcorp
Using personal slurs; whether it's Fag, WOP, Spic, etc... calling females the "B" word or blacks the "N" word, etc... are crossing the line. Now it's no longer a topic that is neutral. Now you are getting personal.

I'd say it depends on context, but I see your point.

A simple member here would be banned in a heartbeat for directing language like that (above or on the video's) toward another member, banned.
ADM Roughhead just said a few weeks ago, that the Navy was ready to transition in the repeal of DADT post haste, yet he has a promoted Senior Commander with baggage like this? Don't fall for this "it was a long time ago routine, it was on his last deployment! He was not reprimanded and if this had not come out, do you think that type of behavior would have stopped? With the repeal of DADT, I'm sure he would have toned it down a bit and passed it down to his new XO.

Every enlisted man out her knows the reprimand and (to use Commander Salamander wisdom) his department head would be "Finger Wagging in his face" over the massive egregious and homophobic error he made; and possible been to a Captains Mast. Not this guy, he's as arrogant as they come and he's getting what he deserves. He of all people, top brass that fall into the PC line, were preaching the "do as I say, not as I do" and flaunting his authority to anyone that complained, albeit anonymously because they knew this BoS would have made their life miserable! Maverick is airborne!

Please, quit with the hypocrisy crap, the guy is a liability and I can't believe the denial some here are in :thumbdown:
 
From the WP article quoted by JAM:

"Many fellow sailors on the Enterprise leapt to the defense of Honors in the wake of his dismissal, describing him as a funny, caring and conscientious officer. "

"I have nothing to gain or lose by saying that Capt. Honors did wonders for the morale of our ship," said one sailor who served on the Enterprise when the videos were made and declined to be quoted by name because he remains on active duty. "I've been in for 13 years and never had an officer that I felt was more approachable."

Doesn't seem like an arrogant a## to me, at least from this. I'll grant, there is no way a newspaper article could speak for the entire ship's company of 6,000 hands (or however many).
 
Look at the statement, and tell me it was taken out of context.

Honors said in one of the videos. "This evening, all of you bleeding hearts - and ]b]you, fag SWO boy[/b] - why don't you just go ahead and hug yourselves for the next 20 minutes or so, because there is a really good chance you're going to be offended tonight."


It is pretty straight forward and I don't see how any context could change the statement made by him.

Max and I have stated over and over again, as a leader we are sure he had to address younger sailors and pass military judgment upon them for stupid things they said or did regarding sexual harassment.

He created an environment that condoned behavior like this through his morale boosting videos. Yet, I bet at the same time if a sailor was brought to him for punishment regarding sexual harassment, he doled it out.

He lived a life of don't do as I say, but it's okay for me to say it because RHIP.
 
From the WP article quoted by JAM:

"Many fellow sailors on the Enterprise leapt to the defense of Honors in the wake of his dismissal, describing him as a funny, caring and conscientious officer. "

"I have nothing to gain or lose by saying that Capt. Honors did wonders for the morale of our ship," said one sailor who served on the Enterprise when the videos were made and declined to be quoted by name because he remains on active duty. "I've been in for 13 years and never had an officer that I felt was more approachable."

Doesn't seem like an arrogant a## to me, at least from this.

Right, it sounds like "fraternization" with locker room talk.

You might be on to something, maybe the Navy (and all the branches for that matter) drop the PC unwritten rules of decorum, and allow "Drill Instructor" like talk to all subordinates.

Women included too, I'm sure I could site hundreds of examples of praise and conversely, hundreds of incensed subordinates. The whole world said the PC thing was ridiculous and a slippery slope and now they want to cherry pick what's acceptable? You live by the sword, you die by the sword.
 
Most know a great leader is not a great drinkin buddy. You can't be both; and then sprinkle in the slurs, that's over the top.

I don't know why some keep putting up the "good old boy network" supporting him; that's the last thing the Navy needs now. Cries of systemic bigotry, and double standards at the top.
 
Look at the statement, and tell me it was taken out of context.

Mongo would be better to comment on this than me, but I spoke to a former SWO at my office, and he said that the "f#g" comment would be in line with the rivalry between people in the SWO community and those in aviation. As the WP article says, it's juvenile, but it wasn't meant to offend homosexuals (in my opinion, it's okay to make an immature joke or twenty on a lengthy deployment to the Indian Ocean). I think that would be fairly apparent to the audience on an aircraft carrier, who would understand the rivalry between the two communities. So yeah, context does matter.
 
The sailors requested anonymity for fear of retribution.

One of them said he mailed a complaint about the videos to the Navy Inspector General this week. Others said crew members who raised concerns aboard the ship in 2006 and 2007 were brushed off....

A female sailor who was assigned to the Enterprise at the time said she and a number of other women on board were offended by the videos. She said some crew members complained about them, and in fact, Honors acknowledged it on camera. In one movie, he says, "Over the years I've gotten several complaints about inappropriate materials in these videos, never to me personally but, gutlessly, through other channels.

We can play the game of some support and some don't all day long. The thing is there were members who kept their mouths shut out of fear, and he darn well knew it.

He created an environment of fear and to me there is no way you can say that is a sign of good leadership.

Of course you know the rivalry, I am sure you felt it between aviation and your career field because both of you got to wear flight suits, the same with desk jockeys at Minot vs Missile guys or enlisted vs officers. It exists in every branch, but did the O6 on your base call the Maintenance officer a Faggot for 5000 people to hear and see?

Did he at his commander's call, call out any member as gutless?

Are you saying that your job sitting alert on a button was not as stressful as sitting on a ship? Are you saying that stress is an excuse for this behavior? Heck, in the AF Minot has a saying...why not Minot? Freezin is the reason! I can't believe being stationed at Minot was a thrill a moment even off duty. People in the AF that have the option of never going there will do anything to avoid the place including taking a remote for a yr. Nobody joins the AF and says I want Minot as my number 1 choice if they have the option to go to other places like Randolph, Hickham or Eglin. Minot is like Mt Home or Eilson when it comes to base assignments.

The idea that the AF aviators do not eat their young (FNGs) as fast as the Navy is pure BS. The difference is the ones that eat them are O3's, not O6's. The O3's will call the FNGS every name in the book, however, the minute they pin on O4, that is all over. There is a joke about pinning on O4 in the AF, and it is "now you are no longer one of us, but one of them". Field grade is a big promotion, that is the time you are expected to be the parent and no longer the child in the AF.

Had he done this as an O3, that would be one thing. He truly didn't hold anyone's career in his hands, but his own. He did this as 2nd in command of 5K people and he held many members careers in his hands.

I am looking at this as a woman, and I am saying that if I was a woman, I would have kept my mouth shut, counted the days and plotted my career to never be in his scope again. As a woman, the crap he said was very offensive.

FWIW, I am a Jersey girl, I play Crud, I curse, and I am probably the only wife who has no problem starting off the chorus of "Head, who said Head..." I am very thick skinned. Yet, even to me that crossed the line when it comes to my expectations. AGAIN, no problem with me if he did this in the Club or the hootch from a social perspective. Big problem when he used military assets to broadcast it.
 
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Luigi -
Please explain how and why you now disagree with your buddy Cdr Salamander.
K Thanks.

My buddy? :confused:

Perhaps after explain why you now agree with your enemy Cdr Salamander we'll all understand what the heck you are talking about?

I support the decision taken by his superior officer to relieve him of command, and agree 100% with HIS conclusions that he is unfit to be in charge.

THEY made the decision. Deal with it.
 
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I'm just not convinced that is the case. On this, it appears, we differ. Such is life.

You are a male, correct?

Now step into the female shoes. He posts videos of women showering together.

You now walk into the squadron to fly with all of those guys, and they start throwing out comments like...

Was that you on the video last night showering? I thought your breasts would be bigger!

Or

I thought you would have been more partial to blondes, and not red heads.

Or

Tell me do women really soap up that way, I always invisioned it differently.

Be that 1 woman in that 4 flight ship package and sit there and listen to those jokes as you mission plan for the next 2 hrs.

She needs to play with the big boys IMHO, but sexual jokes that are created out of his videos only hurts the mission and the military. Sure, she can tell them to knock it off or go boff themselves, but in the end it began because of him. Can you say that if there was no video of women showering together they would still make jokes? You can't, and I openly acknowledge that I can't prove they would exist without them, but the seed was planted with the videos.

She is not about to go and complain to her Squadron Commander for fear that they have the same belief as him. Even if they don't, the intelligent officer knows that the Squadron Commander will not risk his career for her over these videos. Thus, the attitude of "shut up" remains, and fear is the reason that exists.

She will suck in it because she wants to be promoted, and no pun intended, but she knows by pushing the issue she will rock the boat, which in turn means jeopardizing her career. So there she sits living in a world of insults and innuendos, all because of 1 GUY! Her life becomes hell because of him.

This is really fascinating to me, because the people who support him, also have been the ones supporting combat for women or women on subs and the repeal of DADT. I am curious, if it was your DD would you want them to report to him knowing his personal side? Would you want your homosexual child on his ship?
 
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Are you saying that your job sitting alert on a button was not as stressful as sitting on a ship? Are you saying that stress is an excuse for this behavior? Heck, in the AF Minot has a saying...why not Minot? Freezin is the reason! I can't believe being stationed at Minot was a thrill a moment even off duty. People in the AF that have the option of never going there will do anything to avoid the place including taking a remote for a yr. Nobody joins the AF and says I want Minot as my number 1 choice if they have the option to go to other places like Randolph, Hickham or Eglin. Minot is like Mt Home or Eilson when it comes to base assignments.

For one, I don't think the behavior is as bad as some would make it out. Secondly, as someone who lived in Minot, I'm able to relate to the fact that some off-color humor is a good thing now and then. Unlike the sailors on the Big E, when I was done with alert, I could go to my house and watch movies or go out for a beer with fellow missileers. Eight times a month I had to stay out in the missile field, and as I noted in an earlier post, was glad to have some of the "unofficial" materials (to include stuff authored by field graders) to help pass the time when not occupied by duties.
 
Was this material handed out to everyone on base like the weekly base newspaper?

Imagine opening up the weekly base newspaper and that unofficial reading material was there. Again, this would have come from your OG, not your DO in the Squadron, but the OG for the Wing.
 
I've said my peace here. I don't want the thread to devolve into histrionics.

Let's just say I have my view and I respect those of others. PMs are welcomed if anyone feels the need to continue. I don't want to take over the thread or continue it unnecessarily.
 
Sprog I agree, I don't think or believe at this point anyone will change their opinion and now it is becoming an issue of beating the shrub dead.

To me the only true conversation left on this topic is if the hierarchy should be held responsible for Honors actions.

The other issue is to discuss how the Navy will now change due to this event. Will the pendulum swing far to the point that every p & q will be looked at from every possible point creating the "sensitive new age" or are they going to say, we addressed it and move on.

In the AF after Tailhook, they swung the pendulum very far so as they would not get caught in the Navy situation, to such a point that the older aviators called the FNGS SNAPS and SNAWS...Sensitive New Age Pilots and WSOs.

Yrs later it is starting to swing back to the middle, but dollars for donuts, I am willing to say you will never hear the S & M man or Do my .... hang low ever sung in a club again.
 
Folks I'm not going to close this thread but I would suggest that most of what is going to be said about this has probably been said. Before you post again, ask yourself: A. Have I already said this repeatedly? B. Am I talking about the issue or the ramifications of the issue and not about another member?
Beating the drum ever louder doesn't convince anyone of the rightness of your cause nor does beating someone over the head convince them that your opinion is right and theirs is incorrect, hypocritical, immoral etc... So if you feel the need to keep posting on this thread- consider the above first.
Thanks
 
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The question has become who knew what and what did they do about it. Any one familiar with Navy accountability will appreciate the nuances of this chain of thought. It is definitely not the commander leaving the club after one drink with the attitude of “what I don’t know won’t hurt me“. A fairly reliable rumor has it that the CNO visited the Enterprise, witnessed an episode, and asked to see more. Any one familiar with a Navy ship knows that everyone on board, including the CO and everyone on the Flag staffs including the Admirals knew. Anyone familiar with the Navy is well aware of the secondary informal chain of command from the goat locker to the skipper via the command master chief. So, everyone knew about it. Now, was nothing done? Out of apathy? Or because at least three current and future flag officers thought there was nothing wrong with it? Third possibility is that it was noted and dealt with. Bottom line, each of the three possible scenarios demand that someone come forward and accept responsibility.

The second issue is how far back can a witch hunt go. One of the posters on this thread critical of Capt Honors expressed his opinion that the Forrest Gump spirit video was his favorite. Is it really proper for a future NavaL officer to poke fun at those less fortunate than himself. Will “Forrest” be sweating bullets when he is up for CO in a few years hoping that the video does not surface? Absurd? Probably. But maybe not. What if the First “Lady”, “Mrs” Barney Frank’s, cause de jour is social acceptance of the mentally challenged and it is on the front page of every paper and the subject of every forum such as this on the internet. OBTW, all you candidates who chuckled at “ the First “Lady”, “Mrs” Barney Frank”, withdraw your SA applications because you are not sensitive enough to lead in today’s military.
 
Mongo would be better to comment on this than me, but I spoke to a former SWO at my office, and he said that the "f#g" comment would be in line with the rivalry between people in the SWO community and those in aviation. As the WP article says, it's juvenile, but it wasn't meant to offend homosexuals (in my opinion, it's okay to make an immature joke or twenty on a lengthy deployment to the Indian Ocean). I think that would be fairly apparent to the audience on an aircraft carrier, who would understand the rivalry between the two communities. So yeah, context does matter.
Okay, everyone who has ever heard their offspring say "That's so gay", flunk yourselves as parents. You taught them sensitivity poorly. Watching Modern Family reruns the other night and saw the episode where "Al" thought his friend was gay because he dressed nicely. Nothing but stereotypes. The "fag" comment I heard from Capt Honors was addressing the Checkmate's flight suits (the way they dress). The episode to which you are referring was indeed Capt Honors making fun of SWOs and airdales making fun of each other. I personally thought he was being harder on the airdales than he was on the SWOs. Most of the humor on these tapes is self depreciating. He is making fun of himself and his type. The shower episode. Water is very critical on a ship. A fifty year old ship with eight leaky power plants, even more critical. Had he done like the normal XO and announced on the 1MC, "Now this is the Executive Officer speaking", he would lose half the 1000 or so listening with just this preface. The "I need to remind you to take 3 minute Navy showers" would have lost the remainder. I will totally guarantee you that every sailor on the ship was aware and responded to the XO after his video. For those of us who have seen XOs as obsessed with water as Capt Morton was with his palm trees, watching him run around the ship policing showers in his flip flops, shower cap, and "brick" was absolutely hilarious.

On the subject of water, it is way to valuable to be used for flushing toilets. Anyone who lives near the coast knows how fast salt encrustation can build on something and corrode, even porcelain toilet bowls. One cannot run down to HD in the middle of the IO and get a new one. The XO is in charge of ship's cleanliness. Probably about 3000 of the sailors who thought this episode was hilarious had personally heard a department head or XO somewhere back in their early career when they were compartment cleaners saying "That bowl had better be clean enough for me to eat/drink out of".

Any one who thinks it is improper for a senior officer to act this way has obviously never experienced a Navy vessel crossing the equator where the Polywogs crawl through a slimy greasy dirty gauntlet of Shellbacks and kiss King Neptune's navel. King Neptune, who is the senior shellback on board, could very well be the the CO or XO. Even better, they could be a polywog dressed in nothing but a diaper. Carrier aviators need a pretty healthy ego to keep coming back aboard at night and most don't mind occassionally making fun of themselves. The Navy is not the corporate service.

Good posts sprog, only one correction. A 12 hr day in 98 degree heat in the IO would be considered a holiday. The carrier does launch and recovery for 12 hrs and flight quarters are usually called about 2 hrs prior. After the last recovery, another couple of hrs are required to get the aircraft and equipment ready for the next day. Add the heat of several dozen jet exhausts to the mixture and it can get real warm.
 
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Any one who thinks it is improper for a senior officer to act this way has obviously never experienced a Navy vessel crossing the equator where the Polywogs crawl through a slimy greasy dirty gauntlet of Shellbacks and kiss King Neptune's navel.

I would assume that Admiral John C Harvey (USNA 73), Commander, US Fleet Forces Command, has experienced such a ritual. After all, his bio includes:

...served at sea aboard USS Enterprise (CVN 65), USS Bainbridge (CGN 25), USS McInerney (FFG 8), as reactor officer aboard USS Nimitz (CVN 68), and as executive officer on USS Long Beach (CGN 9). He commanded USS David R Ray (DD 971), USS Cape St. George (CG 71) and Cruiser-Destroyer Group Eight/Theodore Roosevelt Strike Group. He has deployed to the North and South Atlantic; the Mediterranean, Baltic and Red seas; the Western Pacific, Indian Ocean, and the Persian Gulf.​

And HE thought it was improper.

He used phrases like "profound lack of good judgment" and "calls into question his character and completely undermines his credibility to serve effectively in command."

Bravo, Admiral Harvey.
 
I really would like to see this conversation move on and not get locked, so let's move on from Honors. He did what he do, posters opinions are formed and locked into their position of it was right or wrong. Move on, nobody here is going to change anyone's opinion regarding Honors actions.

NOW....

Should Spicer be held accountable for Honors antics as an AD member? He was the CO and it would be hard for anyone to fathom that he did not see these videos on the ship, or at least hear about them.

If he is held accountable, than Spicer too will find converting over into the govt/corporate world very hard.

Most Flag officers get jobs on boards of companies like SAIC, Raytheon, Rand, Lockheed, etc. pretty hard to get that position is the Navy finds you partially at fault because as a leader you allowed this to occur under your watch.

Luckily 75% of retirement pay for a RADM is not bad!
 
You are a male, correct?

Now step into the female shoes. He posts videos of women showering together.

You now walk into the squadron to fly with all of those guys, and they start throwing out comments like...

Was that you on the video last night showering? I thought your breasts would be bigger!

Or

I thought you would have been more partial to blondes, and not red heads.

Or

Tell me do women really soap up that way, I always invisioned it differently.

Be that 1 woman in that 4 flight ship package and sit there and listen to those jokes as you mission plan for the next 2 hrs.

She needs to play with the big boys IMHO, but sexual jokes that are created out of his videos only hurts the mission and the military. Sure, she can tell them to knock it off or go boff themselves, but in the end it began because of him. Can you say that if there was no video of women showering together they would still make jokes? You can't, and I openly acknowledge that I can't prove they would exist without them, but the seed was planted with the videos.

She is not about to go and complain to her Squadron Commander for fear that they have the same belief as him. Even if they don't, the intelligent officer knows that the Squadron Commander will not risk his career for her over these videos. Thus, the attitude of "shut up" remains, and fear is the reason that exists.

She will suck in it because she wants to be promoted, and no pun intended, but she knows by pushing the issue she will rock the boat, which in turn means jeopardizing her career. So there she sits living in a world of insults and innuendos, all because of 1 GUY! Her life becomes hell because of him.

This is really fascinating to me, because the people who support him, also have been the ones supporting combat for women or women on subs and the repeal of DADT. I am curious, if it was your DD would you want them to report to him knowing his personal side? Would you want your homosexual child on his ship?

I have an idea but will hold off till I find out a few details on the "usual suspects" supporting this moron. It does defy logic on the surface, but I suspect we'll find out in short order...and...it smells like politics to me. :thumbdown:
 
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