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I was answering Kp2001's post on a very specific question regarding an institutional difference between the Navy and Air Force. I responded to the examples from his experiences. That is all. I make no comment on anything else.
Another career bites the dust due to stupidity
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I was answering Kp2001's post on a very specific question regarding an institutional difference between the Navy and Air Force. I responded to the examples from his experiences. That is all. I make no comment on anything else.
None of this has absolutely anything to do with the situation at hand. Are we saying that to be on a FB site supportive of the Captain, that he must recognize them by face? And people on this forum who have never served are permitted to criticise? Kind of a double standard, isn't it.
20% officers? LOL. There are probably around 150 officers that are ship's company on the Enterprise. Each and every one of them reported directly to the XO when reporting aboard. He sat down with them for an hour or so and discussed various personal and professional items. Very informal. The XO's job is to roam the ship. He will be in that new officer's space almost on a daily basis to ensure he is acclimating and productive. The XO is also president of the mess. He presides over evening meal. All officers will be expected to dine at his table occassionally. Additionally, no one watches the evening wardroom movie until he returns from eight o'clock reports where a few JOs will be filling in for their department heads. A big social hour.
Every single officer, upon reporting aboard , will be scheduled to call on the skipper. Again an hour or so of very informal discussions. In the old days, and a few COs still uphold it, the JO and their spouse will be invited to the skipper's house for a social call. Also, all line JOs are expected to become OODs. Driving the ship. The skipper lives on the bridge. Each and every JO will become intimately familiar with every quirk and peculairity of the CO. Next, just when they are thinking they are safe, once a month or so they will be invited to dine with the skipper in his private mess. An aircraft carrier is not a corporate job. The idea that either the CO or XO does not know his officers is hilarious.
And as for lessons learned, we are being a little premature aren't we? Can anyone explain definitely what the problem is?
20% officers? LOL. There are probably around 150 officers that are ship's company on the Enterprise. Each and every one of them reported directly to the XO when reporting aboard. He sat down with them for an hour or so and discussed various personal and professional items. Very informal. The XO's job is to roam the ship. He will be in that new officer's space almost on a daily basis to ensure he is acclimating and productive. The XO is also president of the mess. He presides over evening meal. All officers will be expected to dine at his table occassionally. Additionally, no one watches the evening wardroom movie until he returns from eight o'clock reports where a few JOs will be filling in for their department heads. A big social hour.
Every single officer, upon reporting aboard , will be scheduled to call on the skipper. Again an hour or so of very informal discussions. In the old days, and a few COs still uphold it, the JO and their spouse will be invited to the skipper's house for a social call. Also, all line JOs are expected to become OODs. Driving the ship. The skipper lives on the bridge. Each and every JO will become intimately familiar with every quirk and peculairity of the CO. Next, just when they are thinking they are safe, once a month or so they will be invited to dine with the skipper in his private mess. An aircraft carrier is not a corporate job. The idea that either the CO or XO does not know his officers is hilarious.
And as for lessons learned, we are being a little premature aren't we? Can anyone explain definitely what the problem is?
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Bullet
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As to Capt Honors, I think the CNO succinctly explained what the problem was when he relieved him of command.
Other than that, there seems to be an issue that a few just don't want to hear the CNO's explanation.
Me? I'll go with ADM Roughhead's identification of the problem...
Pima
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For the umpteenth time...move on from Honors.
I am not a mod, but I will say that if I was the lines are drawn.
Sprog, Mongo and JAM are on one side.
Luigi, CC, Max, Bullet and myself are on another side.
Neither side will win over another poster.
MOVE ON!
Let's discuss a new chapter, and that is Spicer.
Seriously do any of you believe you can change anyone's opinion at this point regarding Honors? If the answer is no than all you are doing is setting a poor example of the military brethren with every post.
I am not a mod, but I will say that if I was the lines are drawn.
Sprog, Mongo and JAM are on one side.
Luigi, CC, Max, Bullet and myself are on another side.
Neither side will win over another poster.
MOVE ON!
Let's discuss a new chapter, and that is Spicer.
Seriously do any of you believe you can change anyone's opinion at this point regarding Honors? If the answer is no than all you are doing is setting a poor example of the military brethren with every post.
The investigation is complete???
Bullet
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In Capt Honors' case, I'd have to say the CNO's actions kind of tells everyone that the senior-most people have looked into the situation and taken steps based on their findings. Wouldn't you?
Unless your insinuating that the CNO likes to make half-cocked decisions before getting all the facts. You wouldn't be doing that, would you?
Now, I'm sure there is a heck of a LOT more investigating going on as to how involved RADM Spicer was and how much he knew about these videos. And I'm sure when that ivestigation is complete, we'll find out more.
I haven't seen the CNO's comments and can't find them. Would you please post a link?
Adm Spicer is probably immaterial to the outcome of the investigation. Everything hinges on then Capt Rice and to a lesser extent Capt Horton. The outcome of either testimony could do anything from final burial rites of Capt Honors to completely exhonerating him.
Pima
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Bullet
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My apologies. I should have correctly pointed out Adm Harvey's (of Fleet Forces Command, and as combatant commander actually owns responsibility for Big E) comments. Several acticles quoting him have been posted here previously, and I'm sure a quick google search on your part will suffice.
Again, my apologies for the confusion.
But nice deflection from the real issue, counselor. Senior Navy leadership has already identified the problem and passed judgment on Capt Honors based on what they saw when they looked into the situation. You wanna quibble over which 4-Star made the comments, I'd rather point out that you asked the question on what the probelm was, and Navy leadership succinctly pointed it out for everyone already: serious lack of faith in Capt Honor's judgment and ability to lead.
Again, I stand corrected on the name of the actual Capt of the Big E during these incidents. But it is a moot point in Capt Honor's case.
Seriously, you actually think ANYTHING that comes out during testimony could in any way demonstrate Capt Honor was showing good judgement when he made a video full of sexual innuendoes, sexual objectification of female sailors, and (most damning) the thumbing his nose in a derogatory manner any and all sailors who were offended by his previous videos?
No, what the Navy wants now if for Capt Honors to quickly and quietly disappear. As to his future? Who knows? But based on my experiences witnesses several similar situations (leadership removed for lack of judgment), I expect they'll simply just let him retire. The two extremes you suggest will never happen.
Oh, I've read Adm Harvey's release. Thoroughly. I was just confused that you were mentioning CNO's decision which you have just confirmed was never made.
I am particularly intrigued by this comment of Adm Harvey:
Since the infractions of Capt Honors was as an XO, is it possible that he is alluding to then Captain Rice? Considering this statement, how can you state that the issue is closed when Rice has not as of yet even been interviewed? In view of the above statement, his possible ignoring of the videos is practically tantamount to him ordering Honors to do them. The issue is far from dead. I would not venture a guess whatsoever where it might end. Any speculation as to his future is nothing but that.
I know my answer, I wanted your opinion.
They are all equally hard to take out of context today since the world has shifted to PC. Ever listen to an HBO special and hear a black comedian use the N word? Complete double standard and that's why every situation dictates what speech is used, even Marines know when and where to call a Sailors a F**, this Skipper didn't. There are actual PSA's on the radio in my area, about not using the phrase "that's so Gay" so, I disagree.
Yes.
What will happen to this system once an openly Gay male Airedale joins these ranks? Nothing, ADM. Roughhead said so, right?
What would they (homosexuals) think of the Honors' video? I'm pretty sure some of the Airedales that watched those videos were gay, because we all know they were there before DADT, do you think they just thought it was funny?
Is it still OK to humiliate people to run them off? Trust me, I know exactly the system you describe, we enlisted had the same type system and were chastised for being Neanderthals by people like you. Now when it's one of your own, it's somehow "OK"? Serious question because I'm not seeing a difference.
Humiliating people into doing things his way?
In my opinion, he should have shifted gears when he left the pilots seat and acted like a leader, not a Frat Boy. IMHO
Who cares if it was effective, it's behavior not allowed in the Military for years. Go to Parris Island one day and watch how the DI's talk to their recruits today, it's a far cry from the way it was when I was in and the best example of that would be the first 25 minutes of the movie "Full Metal Jacket" Gunny Hartman would be run out of the Military in a heartbeat today.
Wow, just checking in to this thread. After a couple days of absence on my part, I see there's no let up! You guys are pounding this one harder than the media! Did we solve anything here?
I doubt anyone here is trying to solve the problem, I think some are just trying to get their arms around the double standard issue Lucky.
What's your opinion?
PIMA, add in that a successful Carrier Skipper [usually] has his ticket punched for Flag Officer.
Not at all. With the creation of the Super CAG (Commander, Air Group) a few years back, the CO and CAG are parallel and both report directly to the Admiral who is the Strike Group Commander. The CO/XO of the ship only provide and are responsible for 'hotel' functions.Pima said:
Since I have no idea what a S**** or a H*** is, I am sorry that I cannot help you. However, I am relatively certain, many people used gay and fag in non-homosexual settings, so I think that five years ago when these comments were being made, it was less offensive than the one abbreviation that I did recognize.
About this same time, when the F-14 pilots were being forcefully dragged out of their Tomcats and being placed in the new Super Hornet, they referred to it as the Homo Hornet. Should I now burn my "I AM A Tomcat Guy And You Are A Homo" T-Shirt or advertise it on E-bay as a collector's item?
Let's not play semantics, you know what language I'm talking about, it's the exact language Captain Honors used in his video
In 2006 and 2007, it was "NOT" acceptable to use any of the language Captain Honors used, it was just as offensive to men and women then.
On a side note, can you imagine what it's going to be like now that women are being deployed on subs with this culture you are describing to us here? I think a Sub's deployment would be a tad more hostile than an 8 man JO room when they're not out flying...right? Should the XO be allowed to be sexist in an attempt to raise the moral of the majority of the crew?
And Airedales wonder why everyone ha...er, I mean: doesn't understand them.
I say wear the shirt, at least you give them fair warning.
I have to say that with these newly posted, unedited versions of the videos there is a problem out there that is much larger than the use of vulgar, offensive language. (Navy times this morning with more on the story and more video. In the 2nd video, XO's movie night is the last half of the video: http://www.navytimes.com/news/2011/0...rface-010411w/
As the XO of the Enterprise, Captain Honors was responsible for the 3,500 members of his crew and the the 2,500 air wing personnel. During his 2 year tour as XO, he had the ability to influence at a minimum of 6,000 people; the real number is probably closer to 9,000-10,000 due to crew turnover and transfers.
At least some people were offended by the videos. The XO acknowledged that fact. Under the Navy’s current rules, once you become aware that your behavior is offensive to some, you MUST stop that behavior. If you continue that pattern of behavior, then you are subject to punishment. That’s it. Captain Honors crossed the line, he refused to change and his punishment has been passed down by ADM Harvey. If he is exonerated (which I doubt), Captain Honors will still not be returned to the big chair on the bridge of the Enterprise and he will never make flag. His career is done. The fate of the other people in those videos and those above Captain Honors, who “have no idea of the content of these videos” is still pending.
This is the part that I find even more disturbing. These videos clearly show that there were several senior officers and enlisted who supported the XO’s inappropriate behavior; simply by the fact that they were actors or were interviewed on camera.
Now let’s take a look at that young 18-19 year old sailor who just finished up boot camp and trade school and within 6-12 months of entering the Navy is now a crewmember on the Enterprise. He/she receives that initial training in boot camp on proper & professional behavior regarding sexual harassment, etc. This training is expected to continue at your first command and at least annually the rest of your Navy career. But instead of learning to respect people for who they are, our young sailor is learning from the XO and other senior officers & enlisted (remember our video actors) that if someone tells you they feel your behavior is offensive to them it’s perfectly OK to throw it back in their face, insult them and basically tell them to “Suck it Up. We’re at sea and those rules only apply when the ship is in port”. In a couple of years that sailor has moved to a new command taking that incorrect training with them where, if left unchecked, the pattern of harassment continues. In a few years, those 9,000 crewmembers can make a tremendous negative impact around the Navy as they spread what they learned from Captain Honors. Captain Honors stepped over the line, he created a hostile work environment, and his teachings go far beyond the Enterprise. HE NEEDED TO BE FIRED!! Those that knew better and didn’t stop him should be ashamed of themselves and also need to be held accountable.
And I’ll leave on this final note. If anyone has trolled that Facebook page that was created in support of Captain Honors, which I believe now tops 24,000 “likes”, not a single person has stated that Captain Honors was ever punished or ever apologized to the crewmembers who felt offended by his videos. In general, most of them seem to have the attitude that once the Enterprise casts off the lines, shifts colors and is underway we now follow the policy of “What Happens on the Enterprise Stays on the Enterprise”. So, I guess that 23,500 Facebook people just told us that they don’t care if we’re offended and we should just “Suck it Up”
As the XO of the Enterprise, Captain Honors was responsible for the 3,500 members of his crew and the the 2,500 air wing personnel. During his 2 year tour as XO, he had the ability to influence at a minimum of 6,000 people; the real number is probably closer to 9,000-10,000 due to crew turnover and transfers.
At least some people were offended by the videos. The XO acknowledged that fact. Under the Navy’s current rules, once you become aware that your behavior is offensive to some, you MUST stop that behavior. If you continue that pattern of behavior, then you are subject to punishment. That’s it. Captain Honors crossed the line, he refused to change and his punishment has been passed down by ADM Harvey. If he is exonerated (which I doubt), Captain Honors will still not be returned to the big chair on the bridge of the Enterprise and he will never make flag. His career is done. The fate of the other people in those videos and those above Captain Honors, who “have no idea of the content of these videos” is still pending.
This is the part that I find even more disturbing. These videos clearly show that there were several senior officers and enlisted who supported the XO’s inappropriate behavior; simply by the fact that they were actors or were interviewed on camera.
Now let’s take a look at that young 18-19 year old sailor who just finished up boot camp and trade school and within 6-12 months of entering the Navy is now a crewmember on the Enterprise. He/she receives that initial training in boot camp on proper & professional behavior regarding sexual harassment, etc. This training is expected to continue at your first command and at least annually the rest of your Navy career. But instead of learning to respect people for who they are, our young sailor is learning from the XO and other senior officers & enlisted (remember our video actors) that if someone tells you they feel your behavior is offensive to them it’s perfectly OK to throw it back in their face, insult them and basically tell them to “Suck it Up. We’re at sea and those rules only apply when the ship is in port”. In a couple of years that sailor has moved to a new command taking that incorrect training with them where, if left unchecked, the pattern of harassment continues. In a few years, those 9,000 crewmembers can make a tremendous negative impact around the Navy as they spread what they learned from Captain Honors. Captain Honors stepped over the line, he created a hostile work environment, and his teachings go far beyond the Enterprise. HE NEEDED TO BE FIRED!! Those that knew better and didn’t stop him should be ashamed of themselves and also need to be held accountable.
And I’ll leave on this final note. If anyone has trolled that Facebook page that was created in support of Captain Honors, which I believe now tops 24,000 “likes”, not a single person has stated that Captain Honors was ever punished or ever apologized to the crewmembers who felt offended by his videos. In general, most of them seem to have the attitude that once the Enterprise casts off the lines, shifts colors and is underway we now follow the policy of “What Happens on the Enterprise Stays on the Enterprise”. So, I guess that 23,500 Facebook people just told us that they don’t care if we’re offended and we should just “Suck it Up”
81, you’ve been to sea a couple of times. You know the validity of Adm Harvey’s very telling statement in his press release in re the relieving of Capt Honors:
I would like to see the Navy directive you mention. Who is the final arbitrator? The skipper? If someone is offended that the ship performs flight ops in defense of troops ashore on Sunday morning, do they cease? The San Diego newspaper yesterday interviewed a lesbian officer who served in the Enterprise during the period in question and she stated that she was offended and, on two occasions, placed complaints in the CO’s private box. If this is true, does it not imply the CO’s endorsement of the whole episode?
Finally, is humor in the Navy now passe? How many jokes are there that do not have the potential for offending someone, either actual or perceived? Most animal jokes would even have the potential of offending PETA.
I think there is a very real reason that Adm Roughead stood back and let Adm Harvey make this decision beyond just being the chain of command. It means that it is reversable. That the immediate knee jerk reaction was only in response to public and media political correctness.
He knew about and endorsed Captain Honors’ TV show. Had he not, they would have ceased post haste. In the atmosphere of the above statement, how far removed is an endorsement from a perceived “order” that he was expected to continue with the TV shows as is? Only us who have been to sea can fully understand this correlation. One cannot have full responsibility without full authority. With full authority comes even more responsibility. Only when Capt Rice steps forward will we know the true and final dispensation of this case. What if, for example, he were to state, “Capt Honors performed exactly as I expected him to”? In view of the above statement, what happens now? It is not illegal to make jokes so Capt Honors could not have refused. Since Rice has retired, I think, standby, anything could happen.
I would like to see the Navy directive you mention. Who is the final arbitrator? The skipper? If someone is offended that the ship performs flight ops in defense of troops ashore on Sunday morning, do they cease? The San Diego newspaper yesterday interviewed a lesbian officer who served in the Enterprise during the period in question and she stated that she was offended and, on two occasions, placed complaints in the CO’s private box. If this is true, does it not imply the CO’s endorsement of the whole episode?
Finally, is humor in the Navy now passe? How many jokes are there that do not have the potential for offending someone, either actual or perceived? Most animal jokes would even have the potential of offending PETA.
I think there is a very real reason that Adm Roughead stood back and let Adm Harvey make this decision beyond just being the chain of command. It means that it is reversable. That the immediate knee jerk reaction was only in response to public and media political correctness.
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