Another day, another two horrific shootings in America

One common theme shared by many of these shooters in the past 15 or so years is age and recent or current use of psychotropics. The Vegas shooter excepted. I don’t think they’ve figured him out two years later. Whether correctly diagnosed or not, these drugs affect young people significantly. Going off the meds is another hit to the neurons, especially if the discontinuation is abrupt.

A colleague’s daughter a few years ago was on a tricyclic antidepressant and was having some issues and had a conversation with her psychiatrist. With only a phone consultation, the doc changed her meds to Prozac, an SSRI. The girl was 19 so parental consent wasn’t required. Mom and dad didn’t know about the medication change and apparently weren’t aware of her escalating anxiety and thoughts of suicide, otherwise one would think they would have removed the firearm from the house. The teacher whose classroom was right next door to mine left that room one afternoon to go home and found her daughter dead with a gunshot wound to the head.

We are an over-medicated country messed up on booze, pills, weed, and a combination of all for many. We had access to guns 30-40 years ago but kids weren’t slobbering on their desks all day or bouncing off the walls every period during the school day. The pressures of being a kid these days is huge. I not only see it but live it with them. I’m about to start my 13th year teaching in a district which is high performing and high stress for all involved, especially the students. Psych meds and stress I’m sure isn’t the only reason people turn to murder, but it darn sure shows up in the profile of most of them.
 
I'm very curious to know why was it that when I was in high school, we could bring a rifle in the back of our truck, to school...and nobody cared.

When I was a young lad in the Boy Scouts, I sold the most Christmas Cards for the years fundraiser, first prize was a Marlin Bolt Action .22 with a scope. Still have it to this day. Yes times they have changed.
 
I used to take my rifle to school, too. My Principal had a gun rack in front of his desk, and the door was always open. We would put our rifles in the rack before we went to class, and retrieve them at the end of the day.
Imagine - four kids walking down the street after school with rifles slung over their shoulders - today. The kids would be in jail and the parents would be in hot water, too.
All we did was walk to the City Dump and shoot rats, for fun and a meager (a nickel per rat) profit.
 
If you can figure out what's changed since then, you will be on the way to determining a solution.

^This is a good point. At my small town school they used to teach a hunter safety course at the school (as an after school program). It was more common in our area for a teenager to own a gun than not and lots of us hunted or did target shooting after school and on weekends. When I was growing up the focus was on the safe handling and use of a gun - it wasn't taboo or something to be afraid of; more a powerful tool that had to be handled properly. Even when I was out with friends as a teenager target shooting or hunting without adult supervision, we respected those rules and no one ever talked, or even joked about anything sinister.

Before I was ever allowed to shoot a gun I was taught how to safely handle it, disassemble, clean and store it. Now I think fewer young people grow up around guns and don't learn the proper way to handle one, then they see guns in video games, movies, on TV and in the news all the time. All they see is the wrong way to handle guns.
 
I think the functional definition of "gun" has changed a LOT over that time. Most guns were tools used by hunters, cops or soldiers, and enough people had served or hunted to know the mundane danger of not taking guns seriously. It's like a table saw: if you need one you should get one, but never take your eyes off it when it's running. Think.

Changes since the seventies, to roll with Flieger's date, may include the types of war spoils available after Vietnam or El Salvador or whatever (AK vs Mauser) or societal changes (respect for authority in many areas) or familial changes (huge rise in divorce) and we haven't even approached the big ones yet. Media portrayals changed from establishment John Wayne to the anti-heros of the sixties to the outright craziness of Rambo and Schwarzenegger and all the rest of the fun guns and explosions that followed in the late 70s. And once guns are more cool than utilitarian you reach the 90s and spread a thick layer of toxic internet over, under and through everything to let disaffected kids both withdraw from physical society and create new spaces where they could become a better/different version of themselves, but usually end up hearing only from people like themselves, receiving feedback from the choir and not getting any pushback at their howls at the moon.

The internet has allowed people to feel like they are members of a complete, healthy society where they interact, talk, listen and all that good stuff but never meet face to face. They think they're completely normal but have so little exposure to folks not like themselves that they don't know anything about Others. (There's a lot of physical separation as well on racial lines, income levels and political views so that churches, suburbs or states have gradually become split 60-40 or 75-25 where the minority doesn't feel comfortable talking about stuff.) The outcome is that you get Red and Blue teams, or abortion partisans that have never sat down and spoken to someone from across the lines, or those broken incel guys who just sit home alone and complain about women, or the dangerous fringy white guys feeling threatened by all the various shades brown people that are going to replace them. Dude, go meet some brown people and you'll be disappointed how mundane and non-threatening they are. Seriously, members of just about all these online communities need to make a planned effort to get up from their desks and go talk to people unlike themselves on a very regular basis. You may not find a ton of abortion right activists or BLM folks in Idaho, or have any idea where to find a gun club in New York City, but it can be done.

Fleiger, let us know what the youth come up with.
 
The outcome is that you get Red and Blue teams, or abortion partisans that have never sat down and spoken to someone from across the lines, or those broken incel guys who just sit home alone and complain about women, or the dangerous fringy white guys feeling threatened by all the various shades brown people that are going to replace them. Dude, go meet some brown people and you'll be disappointed how mundane and non-threatening they are. Seriously, members of just about all these online communities need to make a planned effort to get up from their desks and go talk to people unlike themselves on a very regular basis. You may not find a ton of abortion right activists or BLM folks in Idaho, or have any idea where to find a gun club in New York City, but it can be done.

Fleiger, let us know what the youth come up with.

So you're saying people should talk to each other in real life and not spend all day camped out in online Internet forums.

Noted.
 
Over the last few days I have seen mainstream media refer to "assault weapons" or "assault rifles" and that drove me to do a little research. Turns out, we don't even have a standard definition - it varies by state. I also found some FBI data where they track homicide causes and noted that "assault weapon or assault rifle" isn't even a category. From Constitutional issues, federal vs state regulation, societal problems (mental health, drugs, family structure, etc), crime, gangs and a host of other contributors this is an incredibly difficult and complex problem to address. I know... Captain Obvious.

Sure, I like others, can look back a few generations ago and remember a different world. But upon reflection, there was the terrorism of the IRA (bombs), tribal strife in Africa (cutting instruments), thugs with clubs, lynchings, etc. These latest incidents are "different" but the "same." Not sure it can ever be stopped no matter the public outcry.
 
A follow-up to my classroom discussion.

My students evidently discussed the topic at length among themselves (a VERY pleasant surprise) and several spoke with their folks. They came back with many thoughts and ideas. Surprising, several wondered if the fact that they're always told they're special and can get away with a lot with little real punishment, does that build a "mindset" of "I can do anything." They also mentioned that they have guns in games where the more you kill, the higher your score and the higher your "cool points" among your friends. They wondered if some of the shooters might have an emotional issue about self importance and have a dissociation with real life?

There were other questions and thoughts...we brainstormed them on the white board; totally didn't do our planned lesson, but that is okay. I think real learning occurred because they were asking questions and really digging into them. They really were curious and concerned, which is totally a good thing. In the end, several summed up their thoughts: evil people will do evil things, the challenge is to find a way to identify them early.

It was a good day.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
As a school board member, this is very good to read. Thank you flieger83 and all teachers that are able to have these kinds of discussions with their students. I really believe that education can come from life lessons as well as book lessons.
 
A follow-up to my classroom discussion.

My students evidently discussed the topic at length among themselves (a VERY pleasant surprise) and several spoke with their folks. They came back with many thoughts and ideas. Surprising, several wondered if the fact that they're always told they're special and can get away with a lot with little real punishment, does that build a "mindset" of "I can do anything." They also mentioned that they have guns in games where the more you kill, the higher your score and the higher your "cool points" among your friends. They wondered if some of the shooters might have an emotional issue about self importance and have a dissociation with real life?

There were other questions and thoughts...we brainstormed them on the white board; totally didn't do our planned lesson, but that is okay. I think real learning occurred because they were asking questions and really digging into them. They really were curious and concerned, which is totally a good thing. In the end, several summed up their thoughts: evil people will do evil things, the challenge is to find a way to identify them early.

It was a good day.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

I’ve been waiting for this, so thank you. Unfortunately, hands are tied until an evil (or a mentally ill person, or anyone) actually DOES something. Similar to domestic abuse. Or any other crime. It’s not illegal to be evil.

Just saw on the news that the mother of the shooter in TX actually called to police a couple days before, with concerns about her son owing the gun that he ultimately used in his shooting. She was concerned with his mental state, immaturity, and lack of gun handling experience. His former GF also spoke out about her red flags. Police couldn’t do anything as no crime had been committed. Yet.

Evil people do evil things. How do you change that?
 
A follow-up to my classroom discussion.

My students evidently discussed the topic at length among themselves (a VERY pleasant surprise) and several spoke with their folks. They came back with many thoughts and ideas. Surprising, several wondered if the fact that they're always told they're special and can get away with a lot with little real punishment, does that build a "mindset" of "I can do anything." They also mentioned that they have guns in games where the more you kill, the higher your score and the higher your "cool points" among your friends. They wondered if some of the shooters might have an emotional issue about self importance and have a dissociation with real life?

There were other questions and thoughts...we brainstormed them on the white board; totally didn't do our planned lesson, but that is okay. I think real learning occurred because they were asking questions and really digging into them. They really were curious and concerned, which is totally a good thing. In the end, several summed up their thoughts: evil people will do evil things, the challenge is to find a way to identify them early.

It was a good day.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
A couple more thoughts. A sense of entitlement goes across all socio-economic groups in many kids these days. I read an article on a study by a couple criminologists who found the one commonality between mass shooters is trauma in early life such as abuse, witnessing mom getting beat up, divorce, and whatnot. I'll look for a link. I have several students in every class every year who have a "no contact" alert in their record. Something happened along the way that prevents dad from seeing them. Also, it seems to later come out more often than not the shooter was on meds or had stopped taking them.

Most of my students get scared when I give them the lockdown procedure brief because I go beyond the usual "turn off your phones, be quite, close the blinds, lock the door, etc." speech. I go further and talk about how we will turn the room tables on their side (I have the black slate science room tables) and hide behind them and I will be at the door to confront the shooter if he gets in. We had an actual lockdown a couple years ago due to a credible threat on the school. I did as described and was at the door with a non-firearm weapon. I blocked the door with the big wooden podium that survived the ages. After over an hour of this all of a sudden the door opened, it hit the podium, a couple girls shrieked, and I stopped from knocking out the security guy by a millisecond. He said, "You can't block the door during a lockdown." Really? The event was over but there were tales of kids hyperventilating to the point of passing out, screaming for their parents, and refusing to turn off their phones because they wanted to be picked up. It was a total cluster and got a huge debriefing. So hat tip to Steve for having students mature enough to discuss this topic.

Mass shootings are not a two year old phenomenon and neither is the misinformation and crazy ideas to fix the problem. I figure most people think Franklin was crazy when he said, paraphrased, "Those who give up freedom for security are doomed to lose both." I believe that but also believe solutions can be found that do not infringe on individual liberties and I'm not talking about just the 2nd Amendment. The Red Flag law movement is scary. The police killed a Maryland resident a few months ago because of it. Link below. I don't have a problem with background checks but not "universal" background checks. This is a state responsibility. The "gun show loophole" is about the only thing the universal background check would affect in my state. I don't remember too many stories about mass shooters buying their firearm at a gun show. Anyway, my dog is telling me he has to go for a walk.

https://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2018/11/05/fatal-officer-involved-shooting-in-anne-arundel-county/
 
First of all, I appreciate this thread. It is in the appropriate 'off topic' portion of the forum. I am new to these forums, and seeing reasonable people guide each other, counsel each other, support each other and respectfully challenge each other (occasionally) is great. If only more in our society could find a way to participate in conversations with those who you may not agree with. I appreciate that this has remained largely apolitical and is more of a musing as to our changes in society. I did security for our high school for 3 years. We did lock down drills once a year, and by law fire drills once a month. I was furious. No one has died in a school fire for 50 plus years. I and others kept pushing for changes.
Our district finally went through ALICE training and all staff have been actively trained. This past year, I substitute taught (long term) freshmen biology. The day after I completed ALICE training I taught 6 sections of my kids what our new procedures would be. No more hiding in the dark, no more waiting to be victims. They practiced blockading doors and windows, they practiced locating weapons in the class for self defense (staplers, fire extinguishers, chairs, books, any thing to throw or distract or wound invader). They utilized the cut lengths of fire hose to lock down the hinges on the doors. They each took turns placing the fire hose, they also used the provided length of rope to tie to interior door handle and tug on it to keep door from being opened outward. They also practiced escape if it were possible. No rules, (other than do not pick up the weapon intruder uses, kick it aside or you may be the one police think is perpetrator) they had the free will to defend themselves and each other, as did I. It was great to listen to them talk their way through it. Their mind shift occurred right in front of me. No longer scared victims, they became empowered young men and women who were thinking for themselves.
@flieger83, I loved hearing your kids feedback and dialogue. Also, very brave of you to have that conversation with them. Some teachers are of course afraid of back blow and avoid tough topics. Kudos for you and your kids for engaging responsibly on a very serious topic. I am hopeful that if we reach out to each other, in person, in forums, in our daily lives, we can further our progress while engaging in topics where we may not all agree.
 
@Heatherg21 another thing districts should do is Stop the Bleed type training. I teach medical sciences so my students get it but the district has just now required CPR and first aid for faculty. Teachers should learn hard core hemorrhage control, tourniquets and all. I’ve read where districts have turned down the offer from fire departments for this training. I have first aid materials in various spots in my room and truck in the parking lot. When seconds count, first responders are only minutes away.
 
First aid including CPR and hemorrhage control should be taught at the HS level, IMO. Anti active-shooter training is good, but first aid is beneficial in so many more instances.
As always, "Run, Hide, Fight" is the best course of action for unarmed/untrained persons facing an active shooter/terrorist event. For armed adults, the calculus may change a bit toward something more like "direct others to evacuate and set a counter-ambush," but that depends more on situation specifics and the defender's skill and available equipment.

Mass shooters do frequently exhibit use of drugs or psychological medication, detachment from normal society, latent anger/feelings of victimhood, and generally plan out their attacks. An older US Secret Service study of school shooters also indicates they frequently inform someone of their intents during their planning stage--so take talk of harming others seriously.
 
@Devil Doc You wouldn't believe (or maybe you would) how hard it was to get district to do ALICE training. Small town, rural, ag community. Older school sites with NO FENCES and exterior entrances to 90% of all classrooms. We did just get a bond passed that will have a large amount dedicated to increasing security measures and fences. Seems to be that citizens want safety, demand it but also don't believe anything will happen in 'their' town. They also want easy access to their kids and campus and don't like the high tech security measures that need to be in place. It is slowly changing. Our student council kids were all CPR certified last year, goal is to get all 9-12 certified this year, all 394 kiddos. I hope they can do that. I kept materials in my class this past spring semester. I talked to the kids about using the rope (door securing measure) or belts or shoe laces for tourniquets if needed. We are lucky in that the Police Dept is 1 min drive time and fire is 2 mins. Very active and responsive LEO for us. They now participate in all emergency drills. When a fire alarm sounds, we are advised to shelter in place (unless fire is in your room), we then wait until an all call announces "this is a drill, please evacuate", in that short time LEO has arrived and are in full gear with weapons at ready protecting all of staff and students while fire alarms are cleared. Makes us all feel less like sitting ducks. Hopefully we can integrate more CPR and advanced life saving techniques moving forward.
 
Shoelaces don't make very good TQs. I mean, it's better than bleeding out, but that's a lot of potential nerve damage. A couple CATs or SOFT-TWs are not that expensive.
 
Shoelaces don't make very good TQs. I mean, it's better than bleeding out, but that's a lot of potential nerve damage. A couple CATs or SOFT-TWs are not that expensive.
I have always equated the decision to apply a tourniquet to having to go from my rifle to my pistol in war time. At that point, things are pretty much over (for the limb or me, depending upon the scenario).
 
You can do what you like with the facts. But please, don’t pretend they aren’t facts
 
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