Another football scandal.

kinnem said:
I agree with the spirit of this remark Scout, but I'm not sure where recruiting comes in. Was there an emphasis on winning? No doubt, as there is in all college sports. But the cadet made his own decisions. I don't know how you foresee that while recruiting unless there is already signs of drug use. I don't know the particulars of that in this case. Can you expand on why you ding recruiting?
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When it involves such highly visible players, ones who have carried the program, and they end up having such deep character flaws, it makes me wonder what they looked at when these kids were recruited. Did they just look at football? Were they held to the same character standards during admissions as your children would be? People don't generally pick up habits like drug use or deep integrity issues at an Academy. They usually bring them there.

The answer might be that this is all a coincidence. That doesnt mean the question isn't worth asking though.
 
Asher was squeaky clean in HS...he had a stellar reputation...please don't think he's a bad apple that got worse at AFA...not sure when he went south, but he was a great kid going to school w/ my kid (who Scout knows is amazing :thumb:).
 
Well, obviously, they had notoriety as an athlete. Again, if they were a 3rd string backup kicker, u wouldny hear about this.
 
scoutpilot said:
Being a "star athlete" at USAFA is like being a tall dwarf, so let's not go pretending that USAFA and USNA are blessed with "star" athletes in anything but the relative sense.
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I agree, I am sure these athletes are in general pretty good, but usually the "star" athletes avoid the service academies in favor of the big conference DI schools.

On a side note I find it surprising nobody talks about army baseball (40-13), one of the uncommon sports gem at USMA and their path to the College World Series. (To be fair the lacrosse team has some stiff competition and are generally decent every year)
 
Aglahad said:
I agree, I am sure these athletes are in general pretty good, but usually the "star" athletes avoid the service academies in favor of the big conference DI schools.

On a side note I find it surprising nobody talks about army baseball (40-13), one of the uncommon sports gem at USMA and their path to the College World Series. (To be fair the lacrosse team has some stiff competition and are generally decent every year)
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Well; air force has their share of players who did, or ARE playing for NFL teams. And yes, generally the star athletes would go to traditional universities; but the academies do get some.

But the point is; certain seniors like clark, who were 4 year starters, possibly record holders, etc... will be in the public spotlight if they do something like what Asher did. If the player was a 3rd string player that basically never played, newspapers wouldn't even have an article on it.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Unaware.... that sounds about right.
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LITS, seriously, it's incredibly aggravating to see someone constantly blasting the president on a forum dedicated to teaching future cadets/midshipmen about the admissions process. While you are no longer in the service, I think it sets a poor example to these prospects seeing someone on here jabbing consistently at the commander in chief. Can you, and others that seem to think this is ok, just keep it to yourselves or a beer with your buddies at home or an actual political forum instead of here?
 
hornetguy said:
LITS, seriously, it's incredibly aggravating to see someone constantly blasting the president on a forum dedicated to teaching future cadets/midshipmen about the admissions process. While you are no longer in the service, I think it sets a poor example to these prospects seeing someone on here jabbing consistently at the commander in chief. Can you, and others that seem to think this is ok, just keep it to yourselves or a beer with your buddies at home or an actual political forum instead of here?
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Hornet, seriously..... He's not my commander-in-chief, firstly. Second, we may want our future servicemen and women to understand not everyone agrees with their boss. In fact, maybe grad school has shielded you from some of this, but it isn't one big pep-rally for the Commander-in-Chief in the services either. Never has been.

Unaware? Sure he's unaware. Unaware how to say "Corpsman". Unaware, as he addresses a joint force in Afghanistan that, as he's calling out each service, he leaves on the Coast Guard, prompting one Coasties in the crowd to yell it out for him. Unaware as he can't remember who is alive and dead for Medal of Honor recipients.

Is he unaware? Absolutely. Is it all his fault? Probably not. He never served a second of his life in the military. That's not me saying he should have. It's just clear he hasn't. He's most often "unaware" because he staff isn't keeping him completely "aware".

This area of the forum is about GENERAL DISCUSSIONS and "ACADEMY/MILITARY NEWS". You want to talk about the admissions process, go to the academy threads and do it there. This is a GENERAL area.

And finally HORNET, it's time to take a step off the reservation and realize not everyone thinks like you. Want them to? Then keep your circle of friends close and uniformed. I frankly don't care how "aggravated" or sad you are when someone says the President of the United States is "unaware." In the grand scheme of things I think about the man, "unaware" is probably the nicest.
 
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ok gents before this goes any further- this thread has nothing to do with politics- Make sure that it stays that way.
 
scoutpilot said:
And I'll have to respectfully disagree with DHinNH...I think star players being involved in military drug rings does constitute a scandal.
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Didn't say it wasn't a scandal, but it isn't a *football* scandal when one notable football player is among a bunch of cadets caught breaking the rules.

Without looking at AF's roster, let's guess that it has 100 names on it. (That's a lowball figure, for sure.) Round the cadet population to 4500.

100/4500 = more than 2% cadets at the academy are on the football roster. Newspaper reports say that more than 30 cadets were being investigated. It would not be surprising to find a football player in a group of cadets that size.
 
DHinNH said:
Didn't say it wasn't a scandal, but it isn't a *football* scandal when one notable football player is among a bunch of cadets caught breaking the rules.

Without looking at AF's roster, let's guess that it has 100 names on it. (That's a lowball figure, for sure.) Round the cadet population to 4500.

100/4500 = more than 2% cadets at the academy are on the football roster. Newspaper reports say that more than 30 cadets were being investigated. It would not be surprising to find a football player in a group of cadets that size.
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We need more infomation to determine if there is any football "connection."

Numberwise, if a single football player is involved, it is above average without considering any other factors.

30 out of 4500 is .0067%

2% of 30 is .6, so if one of 30 cadet being investigated is a football player, already above average
 
MemberLG said:
We need more infomation to determine if there is any football "connection."

Numberwise, if a single football player is involved, it is above average without considering any other factors.

30 out of 4500 is .0067%

2% of 30 is .6, so if one of 30 cadet being investigated is a football player, already above average
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To me, it's not about the number of players involved. It's about all those wins coming on the backs of people who quite obviously did not measure up to the standards of the institutions they were representing. Based on my experiences, I don't believe that "star" athletes on these teams failing to meet the moral standards of non-athletes at those same schools is purely coincidental.
 
It's about all those wins coming on the backs of people who quite obviously did not measure up to the standards of the institutions they were representing.
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Yes you can argue that these were critical players and it probably would have made somewhat of a difference (not disagreeing). What can anyone do about it? Unfortunately, this isn't the first (and probably not the last) that we will see this conduct in a star athlete. If someone can present a solution that would prevent anyone at a Service Academy from getting in trouble (honor or major conduct incident) I am sure that you would be a valuable asset to the Admissions Office, Commandant, and Superintendent; however, I am pretty sure a solution doesn't exist. It is as ludicrous as saying that risk can be eliminated -- risk can only be mitigated; I look at the Admissions process the same exact way....some will slip through the cracks or do things that wasn't consistent with their prior behavior. The probability of someone slipping through the cracks is likely never to be 0%.

Scoutpilot, I presume you would then be critical of Army's 1948 (8-0), 1949 (9-0), and 1950 (8-1) seasons given that around 37 of the 90 involved in the 1951 cheating scandal were football players? After things were cleaned up Army was 2-7. Was this the fault of the Admissions Board and football coaches who sacrificed values for football? I realize this was "back in the day" but it goes to my point that things happen at ALL service academies and it won't be the last time that highly visible MIDN/Cadets will do something they aren't suppose to do.

The key is putting in controls (Admissions/honor system/conduct system/training) and dealing with the situation immediately and appropriately as it happens. That is the only way to deal with this and many other military problems.
 
MemberLG said:
We need more infomation to determine if there is any football "connection."

Numberwise, if a single football player is involved, it is above average without considering any other factors.

30 out of 4500 is .0067%

2% of 30 is .6, so if one of 30 cadet being investigated is a football player, already above average
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Above average, yes, but not out of line with a reasonable outcome. IF the 2% figure is right (which it isn't, but since I tossed it out there, we should go with it), then in a sample of 30, getting 1 is not at all out of line. Of course we're not really sampling randomly either....

( btw, 30 out of 4500 is 0.67% :thumb: )
 
jadler03 said:
Scoutpilot, I presume you would then be critical of Army's 1948 (8-0), 1949 (9-0), and 1950 (8-1) seasons given that around 37 of the 90 involved in the 1951 cheating scandal were football players? After things were cleaned up Army was 2-7.
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Wasn't there a movie/tv special about those proud members of the Long Grey Line?
 
Guess I was beat to the punch. I watched the movie 2 or 3 years ago. Well done with some interesting and insightful points made, particularly at the end.
 
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