Anti-Islam film protests spread across Middle East

LineInTheSand said:
Um.... and they have.... more than once.

As for oil as a commodity, it's going to stay that way, whether you remove some of the demand, demand will remain. You can lessen the NEED for oil, but it won't go away. Drill and refine your own oil, you affect the price, but make no mistake you have many other countries that will continue that demand, and therefore the markets will remain.

Beyond that, a majority of the United States will be dependent.

And that's not even considering the number of products that have oil based ingredients.
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Again, we can't think about it in a vacuum. If we are able to massively reduce our own oil demand through renewable technologies, the price point for them will make them realistic for even developing nations (our energy prices are so low, technologies require very big reductions in cost compared to places like Japan and Europe to be used). Already, several places in Africa and South Asia have switched to micro-solar grids because they are cheaper than kerosene or diesel systems in their environment. Having such a large market in the US for non-fossil systems will reduce demand EVERYWHERE from our innovation. Even China, the next big oil hog, is investing heavily in solar development, I guarantee they will follow.

Drill, baby, drill is not the solution to removing our dependence on oil from the Middle East.
 
I think the problem is more political than about oil. Reason I say so, is because as of 2007, we imported approximately 58% of our oil, and it came from the following countries.

Canada (18.2%)
Mexico (11.4%)
Saudi Arabia (11.0%)
Venezuela (10.1%)
Nigeria (8.4%)

We get the most from canada and mexico. Yes, we do get some small amounts from many of the other countries. http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm

But the whole OPEC and other consortium makes it where if you buy from one country, you're basically still buying from the others in the OPEC. But we could currently stop important any middle east oil. With the majority coming from the western hemisphere, we could definitely make up the difference for what we get from OPEC countries. But for political reasons, we won't.
 
Christcorp said:
I think the problem is more political than about oil. Reason I say so, is because as of 2007, we imported approximately 58% of our oil, and it came from the following countries.

Canada (18.2%)
Mexico (11.4%)
Saudi Arabia (11.0%)
Venezuela (10.1%)
Nigeria (8.4%)

We get the most from canada and mexico. Yes, we do get some small amounts from many of the other countries. http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm

But the whole OPEC and other consortium makes it where if you buy from one country, you're basically still buying from the others in the OPEC. But we could currently stop important any middle east oil. With the majority coming from the western hemisphere, we could definitely make up the difference for what we get from OPEC countries. But for political reasons, we won't.
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But again, we could buy 0 oil from OPEC and nothing changes. If we take a little more Mexican oil, China will shift from theirs to Saudi Arabian oil. They will still have a buyer at the global price, no matter who buys it. Nothing changes. It doesn't matter where we buy it from, it only matters that we DO buy it.
 
hornetguy said:
But again, we could buy 0 oil from OPEC and nothing changes. If we take a little more Mexican oil, China will shift from theirs to Saudi Arabian oil. They will still have a buyer at the global price, no matter who buys it. Nothing changes. It doesn't matter where we buy it from, it only matters that we DO buy it.
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I tend to agree with your take on this.

Just look back a few years to the first time our gas prices went above $4.00 per gallon. As a country our consumption went down as people started to conserve. The effects could quickly be seen in the Middle East, Dubia for example had been on a meteoric rise in development, it slowed considerably during that time. It wasn't that we were buying our oil from somewhere else, it was because we just weren't buying as much. Working towards less consumption, thus less purchased will be the only way it will have any large effect on the middle east oil producing region.
 
hornetguy said:
Won't do a thing to solve the problem. Oil is a global commodity. So long as we use it and provide a market, it will sell. We buy very little OPEC oil, but we support the global price, thereby allowing them to make billions. Flooding the market (something we probably can't even do), won't change that as they price manipulate. We could talk through so many scenarios where we try and flood the oil supply to cut their profits and we end up losing every time. Increasing domestic production still helps them maintain importance in the world. Losing the largest consumer of their product and THEN big things happen. That's just thinking in a vacuum and ignoring the global implication of energy technology cheap enough for us to replace oil use. But I'll settle on this point unless you want to go through a discussion on it.
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So very true but so many in our country do not understand this.
 
They Hate Us. THEY HATE US. Oil is not the problem. They hate us and our Western Culture which allows difference of opinion and religion.. Most of those on the streets couldn't read a newspaper.
 
While this discussion on the merits of the reducing our dependence on Middle Eastern oil is good, two other factors that probably play even larger roles in our relations with the muslim world need to be addressed.

1) Because we are dependent on this energy supply, ensuring access is a National Security concern, in fact one of countries most important since it has such a significant influence on our (and the global) economy. Now, because it is such an important National Security issue, we remained engaged in that region with PRESENCE, both militarily and diplomatically. That presence can be, and has been, used by some over there to "stir the masses" towards a scapegoat, blaming the US for their troubles. Or tendency to "meddle in the affairs" over there a time or two hasn't helped (cough, cough, Iran and the Shah, cough), and has only increased resentment.

Now, energy dependency that would allow us to eventually depart the area and let them fend for themselves, simply because they aren't that important to us anymore, is a good goal. Leave them alone, let them stew by themselves and find a new scapegoat for their miseries, and we may see the hatred towards us quiet after a while.

All except for....

2) Israel, and our unwavering support for it. Their OTHER scapegoat, and the fact we continue to support them means we will never be out of their "hatred hit parade". Now, should we abandon Israel? Certainly not. Not Now, not ever. For a myriad of reasons most of you can guess.

Oh well, looks like we just have to live with their hatred of us for a while. Doesn't mean we can't change some of the ways we are working and acting with them now. Continuing to give money to countries that stand by while their populace attacks our consulates -- we may want to reconsider that.
 
If they hate us, that's fine but let them be poor while hating. The lack of $ would certainly inhibit their ability to do harm.
 
I remember speaking with a former national security officer shortly after they threw out Mubarak, he said, it's not the first revolution you need to worry about...
 
How can you reason with people that have a belief system that renders those that don't agree with them to be infidels and therefore enemies?
How do you negotiate for peace when they cling to "an eye for an eye" never willing to forgive and forget?
This mentality have been prevalent predating antiquity and unfortunately holds true to this day.
Any accord or treaty is fragile and temporary until the status quo changes.
All the freedoms and rights we have don't mean anything outside our borders, especially where we're lumped together as "evil westerners"to be treated as high value targets by extremist radicals to further their terrorist goals.
To consent to a 16-17 year old to commit to a calling that may possibly include being assigned to these areas is very troubling.
We believe in the value and quality of life. Unfortunately our enemies do not.
May all the young men and women be made ready and be aware that after four years at their respective SA's, upon commissioning, their assignments may possibly be in harms way dealing with unreasonable foes.
"We live in the land of the free because of the brave."
 
Thread derail incoming...
(sorry)



icarus said:
To consent to a 16-17 year old to commit to a calling that may possibly include being assigned to these areas is very troubling.
We believe in the value and quality of life. Unfortunately our enemies do not.
May all the young men and women be made ready and be aware that after four years at their respective SA's, upon commissioning, their assignments may possibly be in harms way dealing with unreasonable foes.
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What's your drift here?
 
I hesitate to weigh in here, but what the heck... first, I do not agree with the U of P professor; however, the idiot who put this video out there seems to be an Egyptian with knowledge of how incendiary this would be. Sort of like yelling 'fire' in a crowed theater (Justice Holmes). It may be 'protected speech,' but this video seems to step on the line. ( I have not viewed the video).
Second, the thread seems to have drifted to a global 'them vs us' sort of mode. I do not doubt there are sophisticated leaders and evil organizations over there who wish to do us harm. Some have nation-states under their control and sophisticated weapons and people who seem willing to fight. They bear careful watching and even control. And I do not doubt that the violence (if not the video itself) is their (the leaders of evil organizations) means of trying to fan civil unrest. We have seen behavior like that in our country (I'm old enough to remember the riots in the 60s and am also thinking of the militia groups and individual actors in the US who seem to focus on starting/ fanning conflict). But many of these violent protests in the middle east are small, from what I read (a hundred people in a city of a million or more). I also read that there are lots of people the region , cowed perhaps, who do not have hatred for the US or Americans. So, for what it is worth, I am thinking it may not be helpful to cast this whole mess as 'them vs us' even though we are really pissed off. It is more complicated. Should extremists/those who hate us be plucked out like weeds? Absolutely. Are we at the point of plowing over the whole garden, good and bad, because it is choked with weeds? No, not yet, Maybe a small section or two... but not the whole thing.
 
raimius said:
Thread derail incoming...
(sorry)




What's your drift here?
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One of the questions I get when people find out that my DS/DD are applying to join the military is " how could you allow your child to join with all that's happening in the middle east?"
The application starts well before they're 18. The commitment to attend any service academy and then to serve even with the threat of being in harms way shows courage and dedication.
There are some that cite "free tuition and board" as a reason to attend.
Wondering how other parents and or applicants feel about this I guess?
I was merely posing a response after seeing pictures and videos of the embassy attacks.
 
icarus said:
One of the questions I get when people find out that my DS/DD are applying to join the military is " how could you allow your child to join with all that's happening in the middle east?"
The application starts well before they're 18. The commitment to attend any service academy and then to serve even with the threat of being in harms way shows courage and dedication.
There are some that cite "free tuition and board" as a reason to attend.
Wondering how other parents and or applicants feel about this I guess?
I was merely posing a response after seeing pictures and videos of the embassy attacks.
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Not only does the application start before they're 18, but the timeline of going to an Academy/ROTC and then actually getting to a point where they will be in harm's way can be very long.

My son attended SLS at USAFA in 2006, started his application, and then entered in June of 2007. After graduating in 2011 he went on to IFS and UPT and is now in phase III of pilot training. Once he graduates from UPT in February 2013, he will have to do several small TDY trainings and then go on to his formal training unit for about a year. So he will be looking at summer of 2014 before he will be deployable.

The world changes can be huge in that amount of time. These kids sign up to serve their country and there is no way that they can know what the US situation will be when they are ready to do their job. I give them all credit for accepting that and still be willing to serve.

Stealth_81
 
icarus said:
One of the questions I get when people find out that my DS/DD are applying to join the military is " how could you allow your child to join with all that's happening in the middle east?"
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That's when you look them in the eye and say: "if my son wants to do something with his life that allows your children to stay safe from those dangers, how could you not?"

Just a tad tired of privileged parents of privileged children looking down on a noble calling, expecting someone else to take the hard and dangerous path so they can live the dream that their privileged child can take some safe and well paying job in security.

Then I usually remind them that there is a very good chance that their child will be living at home when they graduate, working some menial job for a bunch of years while they support them as they struggle to get out of debt. And the likelihood is their child will be working for my child in about 15 years or so. Love to see their reaction as I burst their oh-so-safe view of their kiddies' future....
 
Bullet said:
Just a tad tired of privileged parents of privileged children looking down on a noble calling, expecting someone else to take the hard and dangerous path so they can live the dream that their privileged child can take some safe and well paying job in security.
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A modern day paraphrasing of the wise words of Samuel Adams? :wink:

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom,
depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you.
May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
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Or perhaps John Stuart Mill?

"The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety,
is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
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The whole purpose of voluntarily joining the military is your willingness to confront harms way head on, so others don't have to. Anyone who questions joining the military because they might encounter harms way is an idiot. If you don't want to join and are willing to let others do it for you, and you're willing to thank them for that sacrifice, that's fine. But the military is not a jobs program. And anyone applying because their priority is the education, they too must reconsider. The #1 priority when joining the military must be the defend our country and our interests. If there weren't any "harms way", we wouldn't need a military.

As for Egypt and similar countries, we need to tell them to pis$ off and we should leave until their countries get some control over their people. If we are expected to respect their culture, religion, and way of life, then they need to realize that they have to respect ours. And that includes freedom of speech for those who will say things they don't like. If they want our help, they need to learn to deal with that. I am tired of our leaders apologizing for our rights, beliefs, constitution, etc. If someone doesn't like what our people say, then too bad. They can put up with it if they want our help, or they can say they no longer want our help and we can leave. Who are they to tell us they don't like what our people say? We should say fine; we stop all aid, all assistance, and we're taking all our people out of your country. And it wouldnt bother me in the least if these countries destroyed each other.
 
Riddle me this-
if some dude in Canada made this movie - would there be all of these protests?

Some just want an excuse to spew hatred towards the US.
 
One would think that even the most brain washed individual would still be able to determine between opinion, facts, and a person's right to simply speak. I realize that many of these "Societies" don't believe in the individual. But even they have to realize that not everyone believes as they do. Religious differences have been happening since the cave-man.

It seems you can tell a christian that their religion is a joke, and they simply blow it off. You can tell a Jewish believer that the Torah is make believe and they turn and walk away. You can tell a Buddhist that their god isn't real, and they simply go in one ear and out the other. Same can be said for just about any religion. Except of course the Muslim religion. You say anything derogatory and they want to start a war and kill someone. And no, it's not just a small group in the middle east. Others may not want to start a war, but they "Claim" to be highly offended and insulted.

So, because they get offended, we have to make sure we are all politically correct and not say anything that might be considered offensive. But because we don't get "As offended", we're suppose to put up with other's disrespect. People need to get over it. Every day, something or someone is going to offend someone. SO WHAT!!! I'm sure I've offended a person or two on this forum. Get over it. I have. I don't lose any sleep over it.

But when I hear people say they are "Offended"; no matter what the reason; it simply makes me respect them that much less. No matter what a person's beliefs, religion, values, or morals; there is absolutely no reason to ever be offended. Especially by words that are simply opinions. It's not like any prophet, God, messiah, etc... is going to stop loving or interacting with their people because some "non-believer" said something negative. Sorry, but I have zero respect for these protesters.
 
buff81 said:
Riddle me this-
if some dude in Canada made this movie - would there be all of these protests?

Some just want an excuse to spew hatred towards the US.
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Actually, I think it would (but perhaps not as effectively). The Persians are still twisted up about the Danish cartoons and Salmon Rushdie's book. I actually think the radical Islamist actually look for this stuff in order to whip up the masses. I wouldn't put it past them to actually make this stuff to accomplish their ends.
 
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