Any New Scuttlebutt on NSI? Especially for College Programmers

[NJROTC-CC]

It is looking like my DS will attend University of North Florida, the cross-town affiliate of Jacksonville University ("JU"), and will apply to the NROTC or NROTC-MO programs at JU as a college programmer. I am wondering (a) Is the Navy continuing to do NSI at Great Lakes (there had been some speculation that they were going to discontinue the program and go back to indoctrination at the local units like they did prior to 2019) and, (b) if so, what are the chances that DS will get to go to NSI next summer as a college programmer? Is it only for scholarship recipients?

We know from following the JU NROTC Unit on Facebook that they do an intense week of indoc. for incoming freshman locally at JU. If DS does not get to go to NSI, that would adequate, I am sure. Also, he is XO of his NJROTC Battalion, so he has already learned quite a bit of what they teach at NSI in four year of NJROT (Eg., I lent him my dress shoes for the homecoming dance this weekend, and the shine he put on them was blinding. LOL)

 

[Herman_Snerd]

IDK some of the details you seek but…

1. NSI is attended by scholarship recipients, but in the most recent round not all those who accepted the scholarship were afforded the opportunity to attend NSI.
2. NSI also is not attended from those attending SMCs.
3. NSI is not attended by college programmers in the last couple of times it ran (Scholarship only like you noted)

I paused before sharing because it may surprise you as much as it did me and I don't want to offend, but then realize I'd want the data if others knew details, in case it might help - so here goes. I’ll be honest in sharing a surprising and potentially sobering reality - I saw an inverse correlation in the higher the JROTC medal count and ranks (more than 10 medals, X-level leadership role) from pics shared prior to arrival at NSI from fellow parents, the more those potential midshipmen struggled at the first rendition of NSI. Overconfidence, underpreparation.. Many of them, which wasn’t a lot of people of course, DOR’d. my DS shares a few of those former X-level leaders in NJROTC on Day 1 during a “no talking phase” were walking around like Generals asking if their fellow attendees were OK/ needed anything. Then same persons dropped within the first 10 days because it’s so much more intense, 24/7, etc than their prior experiences. So just have your DS (and others reading this with like NJROTC accomplishment) overprepare for a new definition of structure, endurance, etc. and come in and come in humble /prepared to survive/ move forward.

Fun story about the shoes by the way, thanks for his willingness to serve, and congrats on his choice of schools and service branch

 

[puzzled]

The above gouge is mostly right except for one thing. College programmers DO go to NSI provided they fill out the right paperwork with their unit by a certain date. This past year, due to COVID and budget reasons CPs did not go. The cycle before that, everyone went assuming they had their paperwork in on time.

 

[NJROTC-CC]

IDK some of the details you seek but…

1. NSI is attended by scholarship recipients, but in the most recent round not all those who accepted the scholarship were afforded the opportunity to attend NSI.
2. NSI also is not attended from those attending SMCs.
3. NSI is not attended by college programmers in the last couple of times it ran (Scholarship only like you noted)

I paused before sharing because it may surprise you as much as it did me and I don't want to offend, but then realize I'd want the data if others knew details, in case it might help - so here goes. I’ll be honest in sharing a surprising and potentially sobering reality - I saw an inverse correlation in the higher the JROTC medal count and ranks (more than 10 medals, X-level leadership role) from pics shared prior to arrival at NSI from fellow parents, the more those potential midshipmen struggled at the first rendition of NSI. Overconfidence, underpreparation.. Many of them, which wasn’t a lot of people of course, DOR’d. my DS shares a few of those former X-level leaders in NJROTC on Day 1 during a “no talking phase” were walking around like Generals asking if their fellow attendees were OK/ needed anything. Then same persons dropped within the first 10 days because it’s so much more intense, 24/7, etc than their prior experiences. So just have your DS (and others reading this with like NJROTC accomplishment) overprepare for a new definition of structure, endurance, etc. and come in and come in humble /prepared to survive/ move forward.

Fun story about the shoes by the way, thanks for his willingness to serve, and congrats on his choice of schools and service branch

From the feedback I got from some NJROTC grads from our high school (which is a recent National Champion in NJROTC Athletic, Academic and Drill and Most Outstanding NJROTC unit in the country) the biggest trouble the cadets from our school had at NSI was trying hard not to correct the NSI instructors who did not know what they were doing. Sorry if this sounds cocky. But they kept quiet and remained humble and they all said it was easy. No one from our High School ever dropped out of NSI. The top cadets at our school compete in drill competitions where they have to know every detail of the uniform, and academic competitions - - college bowl type question and answer - - all year long, every year, for 4 years. Not to mention athletic competitions. They can recite all the general orders, principles of leadership, rates and ranks and who knows what else. My DS has been doing cross country and orienteering and preparing for the Marine Corps PFT. He is in great shape. Also, he trains in Florida which is just as hot as Chicago in the summer. He has never complained about the heat. I am not worried about him at NSI.

However, I would agree that not every cadet in NJROTC is prepared. It really depends on how much they put into the program and how intense the program is at their high school. Some high school NJROTC programs do not attract the best cadets and some don't have the best NSI's.

 

[Skipper07]

DS shares a few of those former X-level leaders in NJROTC on Day 1 during a “no talking phase” were walking around like Generals asking if their fellow attendees were OK/ needed anything.

the biggest trouble the cadets from our school had at NSI was trying hard not to correct the NSI instructors who did not know what they were doing.

For the love of all things holy, do not let your son leave the house to do anything ROTC related with this attitude. I don’t care what he knows, and his instructors likely don’t either.

There’s is certainly a time and place to be a drill stud who knows everything seriously), but NSI or any other form of Indoc is not the place. I don’t even know how to express in words how important it is that your son just fit in and do his job.

I was in fantastic shape for PS, but the oppressive heat, lack of sleep, and constant stress certainly did it’s toll on me. No one should go into indoc expecting a walk in the park. Detailers will ensure that it is not one way or another.

 

[NJROTC-CC]

For the love of all things holy, do not let your son leave the house to do anything ROTC related with this attitude. I don’t care what he knows, and his instructors likely don’t either.

There’s is certainly a time and place to be a drill stud who knows everything seriously), but NSI or any other form of Indoc is not the place. I don’t even know how to express in words how important it is that your son just fit in and do his job.

I was in fantastic shape for PS, but the oppressive heat, lack of sleep, and constant stress certainly did it’s toll on me. No one should go into indoc expecting a walk in the park. Detailers will ensure that it is not one way or another.

That's my attitude, not his. I am not worried about him. He is self confident, not cocky. He has been through so much more training both physical and mental than most cadets at NSI that if he keeps his eyes open and mouth closed, he will not only succeed, but be near the top of the class. And, by the way, don't you think he hasn't been yelled at by NSI's and DI's for four years? Don't you think they have taught him NOT to be cocky. These are all things you learn in NJROTC. He has travelled around the country for competitions, camped out, been away from home at week long summer NJROTC training camps, etc. I would bet that half of the kids at NSI have (a) never been away from home, (b) had little physical conditioning, and (c) got NROTC scholarships based mostly on high SAT scores and grades.

I will make sure I tell him: DON'T BE COCKY. DON'T STAND OUT. DO EVERTHING YOU ARE TOLD TO DO YOUR BEST. DON'T DO ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT TOLD TO DO

 

[kinnem]

You're correct, as I recall, that there was discussion about dropping the program. I do not know the outcome. Given that they don't have to decide for months, it may still be ongoing.

If it is dropped, then the college indocs with be more than adequate. They sufficed from the start of the program until a few years back, when, for some reason they decided they need NSI. Many fine officers were produced without an NSI program.

In my mind there are four things to be gained from any indoc:
1. Knowledge
2. Teamwork
3. Bonding
4. Making you question if you really want to be there and making the commitment to it.

Because I always felt bonding was more valuable within the unit, I've never been a big fan of NSI. They can handle any larger bonding that needs to be addressed at summer training and when they get to the fleet.. I know DS's college indoc achieved all four in a week, especially number 4.

 

[Herman_Snerd]

From the feedback I got from some NJROTC grads from our high school (which is a recent National Champion in NJROTC Athletic, Academic and Drill and Most Outstanding NJROTC unit in the country) the biggest trouble the cadets from our school had at NSI was trying hard not to correct the NSI instructors who did not know what they were doing. Sorry if this sounds cocky. But they kept quiet and remained humble and they all said it was easy. No one from our High School ever dropped out of NSI. The top cadets at our school compete in drill competitions where they have to know every detail of the uniform, and academic competitions - - college bowl type question and answer - - all year long, every year, for 4 years. Not to mention athletic competitions. They can recite all the general orders, principles of leadership, rates and ranks and who knows what else. My DS has been doing cross country and orienteering and preparing for the Marine Corps PFT. He is in great shape. Also, he trains in Florida which is just as hot as Chicago in the summer. He has never complained about the heat. I am not worried about him at NSI.

However, I would agree that not every cadet in NJROTC is prepared. It really depends on how much they put into the program and how intense the program is at their high school. Some high school NJROTC programs do not attract the best cadets and some don't have the best NSI's.

OP, Man I like people with a little fire/ passion who believe what they believe in. Good for you! And good for your confidence in your child and his confidence in himself.

Sounds like genuinely, you're confident in your son's abilities as is he, and confident the training and forging through NJROTC and his top ranked program will yield he'll not only survive NSI but thrive/ be near the top of his class. Great.

I'll be honest - it starts with surviving NSI - a lot of this like life comes down to resolve and grit, and working through it even when you start to doubt "what did I get myself into". As other noted above, these programs are designed to introduce that doubt, even those in good shape, even those who can recite the rules of order and the Navy Hymn in their sleep. Accepted as non-applicable to the OP, but again it does happen (even with those NJROTC top dogs who have more medals than Saddam Hussein) , so maybe sharing this here will help others with a little introspection before arrival. Maybe 10 of you will tell me you're highly confident and all 10 will just thrive. I hope so, because it seems to me someone should try to help as we can't lose top talent due to a lack of preparedness when we can avoid it. I honestly want the best standing shoulder to shoulder with my DS, cousin etc. when you all are in the soup. That many NJROTC top talents bowing out was disappointing to me.

Puzzled - thanks for the added detail. I guess we each have data points that some people who were CPs were at times or were not offered the opportunity to go to NSI but I trust your data is correct. I've just seen other programs who categorically (100%) did not support their CPs going to NSI that year.
Skipper, Kinnem, Puzzled, NJROTC-CC - great posts and thanks for sharing perspectives with me and each other/ others.

Let's keep sharing perspectives with a goal to help people on their journeys like this board helped my DS and so many others on theirs. I firmly believe my DS would not be having as many options and success were it not for the guidance shared here in the last 3+ years.

 

[hokiesfan]

If it is dropped, then the college indocs with be more than adequate. They sufficed from the start of the program until a few years back, when, for some reason they decided they need NSI.

Not necessarily. Your DS's indoc sounds like it was great - my DS's (not the one that went to VT) was not. I think having a program that gives some degree of consistency for the majority of mids coming in for a given year is a good thing.

 

[Impulsive]

I think great comments and advice all around. I think sometimes CP's being authorized to attend NSI is based upon the Unit/Command, and the available slots. Scholarship Mids I am pretty sure get the initial slots, then whatever is left over is offered to the CP's incoming. My understanding (after speaking with one of the PNS's) is that the scholarship Mids are basically more committed when they sign the contract, CP's because they "Walk On" MAY not have the same committment or staying power and NSI costs money and with the tight budgets and other needs Big Navy may go back to to Indoc if for no other reason than to save money. Most, if not ALL Units do a really good job (scuttlebutt from other Mids speaking to our DS) with Indoc and the "bonding" experience is possibly better as everyone will be from the same Unit. JMHO...

 

[RevDrKEDSR]

My son did NSI and said that he thinks that it was great and that those who did NSI are way ahead of those that didn't. Now of course he wasn't saying all that when he was writing those "i hate this bleep bleep bleeping place" from Illinois lol

 

[Korab]

For the love of all things holy, do not let your son leave the house to do anything ROTC related with this attitude. I don’t care what he knows, and his instructors likely don’t either.

There’s is certainly a time and place to be a drill stud who knows everything seriously), but NSI or any other form of Indoc is not the place. I don’t even know how to express in words how important it is that your son just fit in and do his job.

I was in fantastic shape for PS, but the oppressive heat, lack of sleep, and constant stress certainly did it’s toll on me. No one should go into indoc expecting a walk in the park. Detailers will ensure that it is not one way or another.

No, he should go in with that attitude, and wear all his medals, too!

 

[puzzled]

My son did NSI and said that he thinks that it was great and that those who did NSI are way ahead of those that didn't. Now of course he wasn't saying all that when he was writing those "i hate this bleep bleep bleeping place" from Illinois lol

I hope that he doesn't make that opinion public at his unit.

 

[kinnem]

My son did NSI and said that he thinks that it was great and that those who did NSI are way ahead of those that didn't. Now of course he wasn't saying all that when he was writing those "i hate this bleep bleep bleeping place" from Illinois lol

Thanks makes sense compared to folks who didn't attend any orientation of a week or more.

 

[Impulsive]

My son did NSI and said that he thinks that it was great and that those who did NSI are way ahead of those that didn't. Now of course he wasn't saying all that when he was writing those "i hate this bleep bleep bleeping place" from Illinois lol

One other point......IF the incoming ROTC Student comes from a military background, or takes the time before reporting to school to learn about the Service and it's fine points, and understands military bearing, and is an athlete or just in really good shape, NSI is not going to make or break how well that person does in ROTC. Our son did not attend NSI (had other summer obligations) but still ended up with a scholarship, and is now as a Second Class MIDN, on Command Staff and exceling. Of his class, less than 50% attended NSI (Class of 2023), and his fellow MIDN stack up to any other MIDN who did or didn't attend NSI.

To imply that "NSI attendees are way ahead of the others" is just not correct, and statements that are "all encompassing" without concrete examples to compare should not be expressed like that. It's similar to saying my son attended NROTC at Harvard and is better prepared and more advanced than yours who attended State U. Shouldn't make that statement, it infers non-NSI students are not good MIDN. For many years there was no NSI, and students did just fine and are probably still doing well in the fleet. JMHO..

 

[Boymomof3]

One other point......IF the incoming ROTC Student comes from a military background, or takes the time before reporting to school to learn about the Service and it's fine points, and understands military bearing, and is an athlete or just in really good shape, NSI is not going to make or break how well that person does in ROTC. Our son did not attend NSI (had other summer obligations) but still ended up with a scholarship, and is now as a Second Class MIDN, on Command Staff and exceling. Of his class, less than 50% attended NSI (Class of 2023), and his fellow MIDN stack up to any other MIDN who did or didn't attend NSI.

To imply that "NSI attendees are way ahead of the others" is just not correct, and statements that are "all encompassing" without concrete examples to compare should not be expressed like that. It's similar to saying my son attended NROTC at Harvard and is better prepared and more advanced than yours who attended State U. Shouldn't make that statement, it infers non-NSI students are not good MIDN. For many years there was no NSI, and students did just fine and are probably still doing well in the fleet. JMHO..

I second what @Impulsive said above. That’s a pretty broad generalization to make & I don’t think is accurate in every situation. My son who doesn’t have a scholarship & didn’t attend NSI is doing just as well, if not better than those who did go. Never understand the power of being perceived as an “underdog”.

 

[Herman_Snerd]

Maybe I can offer the following data points with a goal for people to feel good about their stances shared and to have some perspective:

• At the start of NSO, those coming from NSI are likely "ahead" of those without that 3+ weeks of structured training. Maybe that's what the dear reverend @RevDrKEDSR meant with sharing his son's feedback. I don't read that he implied more than that, but maybe he did. IDK.
• In terms of CPs not having this head-start being a detriment, I understand the pushback data that @Impulsive et al. shared of that implication, since very quickly that gap is shored up. It becomes meaningless. I find water rises to it's own level. Meaning, non NSIers are not cast down with the sodomites. They often rise to lead very quickly. It's foolish to imply that stronger start means much of anything, except that they have a stronger start because they had more training on day 1 of NSO. Big whoop.
• A LOT of NROTC national scholarship winners from HS with all that potential scrub out. HUNDREDS from every class.
  • In terms of scholarship recipients feeling superior, I (in full disclosure being a parent of one) feel overall the opposite - here's why.
  • NSI culls the scholarship recipient herd - decimating about 10% of those who show up to not continue through mechanical injury for some and ringing the bell for many others. Aforementioned overconfidence/ under preparation or mental grit/ resolve being main contributors. People get overwhelmed in that challenge.
  • Then, Drug tests, overall GPA, discipline/lateness, civil incidents, fighting, and a big one: Not making it through 2 rounds of Calc and Physics. A lot of you who put your scholarship in the newspaper holding that big 200k check are going to eat crow in the years ahead. Parents don't go to Hawaii and buy a Porsche on the pre-tax scholarship fund - you may need it.
• Scholarship winners show potential before day 1 of NSO. CPs who are awarded scholarships demonstrate actual performance in ROTC. I bet on actuals not potential 24/7.
• It's my experience that CPs awarded scholarships are much more likely to keep them and commission. Seem to value it/ make the most of it. See list above of reasons scholarship recipients often fall short.
• So, families and actual scholarship winners - please stay humble - your DD or DS are much less likely to commission than a CP who picks-up.
• NJROTC elites with more medals and national trophies than Saddam H - try to stay humble - you've not even taken 1 step year in your 4 year NROTC journey and too many of your predecessors rang the bell DOR'd in the past two NSI years and with all of your swagger and arrogance didn't even make it 21 days. A number of you excelled but please friends - stay humble.
• The obvious slight here is that CPs with high performance show up on day 1 and are grouped with the other CPs that are checking out NROTC and there are a number of CPs who drop and aren't up to the standard. Again, water rises to it's own level - you'll rise to the top if you chose and work at it- things sort out.
• Lastly, I also want to put in a shout-out for those late bloomers who survive year 1 or 2 in ROTC or the SAs and later thrive - you are not defined by your HS success or college or the opposite - the greatest man I know is a Brigadier General in the AF IRET now) and was a C student in college. The late Great Gen. Colin Powell was a C student - like Gen Powell said...
  • "My cousins became lawyers and doctors and judges and I just sort of hung around," he recalled. "I had a straight C average all the way through high school and the City College of New York — I'm not sure how I got in." It was ROTC that was his saving grace. "I got straight As in ROTC, so the administration rolled my As into the overall grade point average and that got me to a 2.0," he chuckled. These days, he's considered one of his college's greatest graduates. "They've named a center after me, the Colin Powell Center for Leadership and Service," he laughed. "My professors are rolling over in their graves."

Point: You are not defined by winning or not winning a scholarship in any direction. So foolish for people to think they are superior given thriving in a HS activity- esp. given the very poor track record of hundreds of scholarship winners watching commissioning from the sidelines because they didn't make it.

 

[EEBTTF]

• It's my experience that CPs awarded scholarships are much more likely to keep them and commission. Seem to value it/ make the most of it. See list above of reasons scholarship recipients often fall short.
• So, families and actual scholarship winners - please stay humble - your DD or DS are much less likely to commission than a CP who picks-up.

@Herman_Snerd - very detailed post as usual. Where are you getting your data from regarding the commissioning rates between CP and 4-YR Winners? I am assuming you are referring to a higher percentage to commission? My guess if you extract the normal attrition for all 1st year college students (ROTC and Civilian) it would be similar. Interesting discussion.

 

[NJROTC-CC]

I am sure there are some common reasons why scholarship winners drop out. My guess is that maybe a lot of them are selected in large part based on SAT scores, but maybe lack in common sense or street smarts or had never learned to be independent and live away from home on their own. But grades could be a big reason for drop out too. I bet some sign up for tier 1 or tier 2 majors just to get the scholarship, but then find out they can’t hack the college engineering, for example.

My DS is going to take a major he likes and is good at and will give NROTC college program his best shot. If he stays humble and works hard I am sure he will get selected for advanced stsnding and commission. If not, then it was probably not meant to be and he will be happy and successful at something else. But we still have a very busy senior year in high school to get through. I just hope he gets to go to NSI at Great Lakes next summer. Both his grandfathers, a great grandfather, and his great-great grandfather trained at Great Lakes, during Viet Nam, Korea, WWII and WWI. So he will submit his college program early.

 

[Herman_Snerd]

@Herman_Snerd - very detailed post as usual. Where are you getting your data from regarding the commissioning rates between CP and 4-YR Winners? I am assuming you are referring to a higher percentage to commission? My guess if you extract the normal attrition for all 1st year college students (ROTC and Civilian) it would be similar. Interesting discussion.

you’re asking for data sources but I’m out at a swim practice for one of my kids. So a quick summary.
NSI DOr numbers come from the NSI commencement speeches directly plus discussing each cycle with people who were there. I’m also a member of several fB groups for parents of midshipmen. the NJROTC data is right from their introductions and then lightning quick farewells plus data points from those present like a friend of my DS from FL who was a medic for all NSI sessions in 2019 and a Bravo company NSI alum who returned to instruct this summer.

The other reasons for NROTC drops come from meals I had with an Army ROO, Army PMS, Navy PNS and Navy cadre on college visits with my DS his junior. And senior year Just listened as these great people shared their knowledge and guidance over a few meals w me while my son shadowed cadets and midshipmen. As I mentioned one of my friends is also a Brigadier General REt USAF and he put me in touch with people from all branches of rotc as he. Commanded the US air operations during one of the operation Desert _____. So he well - knows people. And he phoned some friends for me. And I asked away and they talked away and I spend my time sharing what I can to those who dont have these details as a way of paying it forward for those who are going through the process and because it’s just sad to see talented people scrub out or worse owe 260k back after dropping or getting PrB (not Pabst the other one) late in their journeys. I get together with a couple of these folks who. I’m in their towns. We’ve become buddies of sorts. It happens.


Ok. Hopefully that’s a glimpse into my secret sauce. Feel welcome to scrutinize or doubt the data I share. Sometimes I’m proven mistaken as I’m learning too.
But usually not.

It’s amazing how many people don’t make it to commission. From the Hs nationalscholarship path. Get to know people, take them out for a good meal and listen. I honestly learned so much this way.