Army Branches for Civilian Success

[Firstie2020]

I'm currently a Firstie at USMA, and am closing in on the day in which I must input my branch preferences.

There are many factors I am weighing in putting in my branch preferences: how much I think I will like the job, the posts and units I will likely be able to go to should I go to the branch, the military schools I will be able to attend, etc.

Among the factors I am weighing is how the branch will set me up for civilian success. This is not the only factor or the most important one, but it is definitely a factor I am considering in my decision. I am heavily considering leaving the Army after my 5 year commitment to get an MBA. Should I decide to leave when the time comes, I'd like to go to a top 7 school if possible, and my GPA at West Point is comparable to other people that have been admitted to these top schools.

What branches will put me in the best position to build a resume that will be looked favorably upon by MBA admissions boards?

Also of note, I don't have an interest in cyber, or other branches that require technical skills that could lead to civilian jobs in those fields. If I become a civilian after 5 years, I don't intend to use any of the technical skills that I learned in the Army.

 

[Capt MJ]

Doing a bit of reverse engineering on just one aspect of your post, please research the years of service requirements for SA grads for full eligibility for the Post-9/11 GI Bill educational benefits. Assuming you may want to take advantage of this generous package that pays for tuition plus a living stipend, I believe you have to serve 36 months after you complete your 5-year SA payback for the full 100% benefit.

I’m just a friendly neighborhood squid whose experience with our sponsor mid family has produced grads from biz schools Wharton, Stanford, U Chicago, Duke, UVA, Syracuse, Harvard, all using the full 100% of the GI Bill benefits plus Yellow Ribbon benefits offered by the school. All are doing extremely well in the business world. The Stanford one is an EVP at his investment banking firm. The Syracuse one is an AVP at a well-known name in the credit industry. One has his own business. One is on the executive track at Amazon. They came from various warfare communities in the Navy and Marine Corps: submarine, surface ship, oceanographic, communications, etc. Their biz school didn’t care about that so much. They each had numerous job offers. What they are valued for in the business world is their proven ability to lead people, operate in a high-stress environment, make sound decisions, perform operational risk management, understand accountability and responsibility, and have faced far more than their civilian peers in everyday challenges and reflect that maturity. There are multiple firms specializing in junior officer placement post-separation and retirement.

https://benefits.va.gov/BENEFITS/factsheets/education/Post-911_General_info.pdf

I do think Cyber community leads fairly clearly to Cyber jobs post-Service, if that is the desired path.

Pick the branch that most appeals to you. If you are happy with what you are doing, you will be a better leader to your soldiers and be happier overall, which usually leads to good performance and expanded opportunity.

Above all, be open to the journey. I knew many who were “five and dive,” “four and out the door,” and “three and flee,” yet found they loved being an AD officer and stayed a full career, while gung-ho peers departed the pattern early.

“Be here now” for your troops in whatever branch you choose, and the rest will take care of itself. It’s good to have a long-term plan, but remain flexible.

 

[Firstie2020]

Doing a bit of reverse engineering on just one aspect of your post, please research the years of service requirements for SA grads for full eligibility for the Post-9/11 GI Bill educational benefits. Assuming you may want to take advantage of this generous package that pays for tuition plus a living stipend, I believe you have to serve 36 months after you complete your 5-year SA payback for the full 100% benefit.

I’m just a friendly neighborhood squid whose experience with our sponsor mid family has produced grads from biz schools Wharton, Stanford, U Chicago, Duke, UVA, Syracuse, Harvard, all using the full 100% of the GI Bill benefits plus Yellow Ribbon benefits offered by the school. All are doing extremely well in the business world. The Stanford one is an EVP at his investment banking firm. The Syracuse one is an AVP at a well-known name in the credit industry. One has his own business. One is on the executive track at Amazon. They came from various warfare communities in the Navy and Marine Corps: submarine, surface ship, oceanographic, communications, etc. Their biz school didn’t care about that so much. They each had numerous job offers. What they are valued for in the business world is their proven ability to lead people, operate in a high-stress environment, make sound decisions, perform operational risk management, understand accountability and responsibility, and have faced far more than their civilian peers in everyday challenges and reflect that maturity. There are multiple firms specializing in junior officer placement post-separation and retirement.

https://benefits.va.gov/BENEFITS/factsheets/education/Post-911_General_info.pdf

I do think Cyber community leads fairly clearly to Cyber jobs post-Service, if that is the desired path.

Pick the branch that most appeals to you. If you are happy with what you are doing, you will be a better leader to your soldiers and be happier overall, which usually leads to good performance and expanded opportunity.

Above all, be open to the journey. I knew many who were “five and dive,” “four and out the door,” and “three and flee,” yet found they loved being an AD officer and stayed a full career, while gung-ho peers departed the pattern early.

“Be here now” for your troops in whatever branch you choose, and the rest will take care of itself. It’s good to have a long-term plan, but remain flexible.

I'm aware of how the GI bill works and the benefits associated with it. My current plan is to save up days of leave during my 5 year service obligation, do 5 years and a month or two, then use terminal leave to get me to 90 days. This will give me 40% of the GI bill as well as BAH.

I wouldn't mind doing 8 years and financially it seems like a smart choice due to how much money you get for the yellow ribbon program at many top schools.

However, based on studies done on service to school MBA applicants, it seems as if I would have a much better chance getting into a top MBA after 5 years rather than 8.

Looking at this chart I got from the link below, officers leaving after 5 years appeared to perform best in terms of admissions. A small sample size, but certainly something I'm considering. I'm curious if some of this is due to self-selection rather than admissions preferences (ie top applicants are more likely to want to leave the Army ASAP in 5 years).

https://service2school.org/what-are-my-odds-applying-to-the-top-mba-programs/

“Be here now” for your troops in whatever branch you choose, and the rest will take care of itself. It’s good to have a long-term plan, but remain flexible.

Without a doubt. I'd just like to make my decision of if I will do 5 years or 8 years because I have to make the decision to BRADSO or not. If I BRADSO it will allow me to select a branch I might not be able to get without it, but it will force me into doing at least 8 years. If I end up doing 8 years without BRADSOing, I would feel like I wasted the opportunity to get a branch that I would have liked better.

 

[davejean90]

They will not care. To most civilian admissions committees, the Army is the Army. They have no idea of what branches are and will assume you led soldiers who have different tasks to complete. An army officer tends to be a generalist. What that means is despite the fact you are in different branches, most LTs will be doing the same similar tasks. They will care if they think you can pay the tuition, so what was said about staying in longer to get the GI bill makes sense.

 

[Firstie2020]

They will care if they think you can pay the tuition, so what was said about staying in longer to get the GI bill makes sense.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean that it is looked upon badly if you use the GI bill/yellow ribbon program because that means the school gets less money?

 

[Capt MJ]

If you are at the 100% tuition rate, the school knows it is getting its full-price tuition rate from Uncle Sam every year, nothing from the student, so less worry about failure to pay.

You seem to be a good analyst and long-term planner. Don’t forget to allow for “stuff happens” and “God laughs while man plans.” I had to take 22 days of emergency leave as an O-3 for the death of one of my parents, going home to help my mother. That put a major dent in my leave balance, which of course I didn’t mind.

 

[MidCakePa]

I attended a top 5 graduate business school. Among those getting MBAs with me were many SA graduates. I also worked at a blue-chip F200 company, where I helped recruit many MBAs with SA degrees. In both cases, the SA grads came from a variety of sectors: infantry, armor, artillery, surface warfare, submarines, aviation, intelligence, procurement. Neither the school nor the company gave a whit about which branch the person came from. We looked primarily for leadership traits, problem-solving skills, analytical ability, creative thinking and EQ.

 

[justdoit19]

I attended a top 5 graduate business school. Among those getting MBAs with me were many SA graduates. I also worked at a blue-chip F200 company, where I helped recruit many MBAs with SA degrees. In both cases, the SA grads came from a variety of sectors: infantry, armor, artillery, surface warfare, submarines, aviation, intelligence, procurement. Neither the school nor the company gave a whit about which branch the person came from. We looked primarily for leadership traits, problem-solving skills, analytical ability, creative thinking and EQ.

Is it assumed that all SA grads poses those traits, or did you look for demonstration of those traits beyond their holding a SA diploma?

 

[MidCakePa]

Is it assumed that all SA grads poses those traits, or did you look for demonstration of those traits beyond their holding a SA diploma?

We assumed that all our candidates, regardless of undergrad experience, possessed these traits -- that's how they got on our interview list to begin with. The question was, which candidates showed those traits better than others, and which ones were a better cultural fit? In some cases, the SA grad won out. In other cases, the non-SA grad did. I don't know empirically if SA grads received offers at a higher rate. But I do recall that SA grads tended to show higher levels of leadership (maturity, poise, initiative, accountability) and collaboration.

Where SA grads really made an impression was when I'd ask them to describe a situation in which they had to solve a complex problem under great duress. Their answers tended to be very different from those of candidates who came from civilian backgrounds. The response would start something like, "When I was in the Persian Gulf..."

 

[cb7893]

Also of note, I don't have an interest in cyber, or other branches that require technical skills that could lead to civilian jobs in those fields. If I become a civilian after 5 years, I don't intend to use any of the technical skills that I learned in the Army.

The experience that will make you the most valuable in the civilian world is management responsibility--of humans and equipment. Remember you will be a manager and technical fields generally get have enlisted personnel who are technically qualified.

I do think Cyber community leads fairly clearly to Cyber jobs post-Service, if that is the desired path.

Pick the branch that most appeals to you. If you are happy with what you are doing, you will be a better leader to your soldiers and be happier overall, which usually leads to good performance and expanded opportunity.

Above all, be open to the journey. I knew many who were “five and dive,” “four and out the door,” and “three and flee,” yet found they loved being an AD officer and stayed a full career, while gung-ho peers departed the pattern early.

“Be here now” for your troops in whatever branch you choose, and the rest will take care of itself. It’s good to have a long-term plan, but remain flexible.

Along the same lines at Capt MJ, I would emphasize that 3, 4, 5 or however many years is a long time for a 22-24 year old. Make it interesting. If your NCO and E's sense you are simply going through the motions, marking time until you head off the Wharton or Stanford, the 3,4, or 5 years will seem much longer. My DS branched Signal four years ago and planned to Five and Dive. He is about to start the SF Q course adding three years to his commitment. He has concentrated on making his AD time as interesting and challenging as possible, but has almost identical longer term aspirations as you--MBA, finance, etc.

It is rarer and rarer that new soldiers can start a sentence with , "When I was in the Persian Gulf..." It will be more like, "When I was at Fort Polk..."

Have a great Firstie year and best of luck!

 

[jl123]

Your choice of branch will not matter, but your success in that branch will. Every top business program will require letters of recommendation and may stipulate that one or more should be from a supervisor. The quality of reference from your current or former Commanders could make or break your application.

 

[jl123]

With regard to finances, top MBA schools have huge endowments and will be far more concerned with quality of applicants than source of funds.

The GI Bill covers far less of the cost of a top tier MBA degree than it first appears. Schools participating in the Yellow Ribbon program cap the maximum amount, so their potential liability is low: Harvard $18k, Wharton $17.5k, Stanford $21k. Given the total financial aid offered to incoming classes, this is not likely to impact admissions decisions (my opinion).

 

[Soldiergriz]

I'm currently a Firstie at USMA, and am closing in on the day in which I must input my branch preferences.

There are many factors I am weighing in putting in my branch preferences: how much I think I will like the job, the posts and units I will likely be able to go to should I go to the branch, the military schools I will be able to attend, etc.

Among the factors I am weighing is how the branch will set me up for civilian success. This is not the only factor or the most important one, but it is definitely a factor I am considering in my decision. I am heavily considering leaving the Army after my 5 year commitment to get an MBA. Should I decide to leave when the time comes, I'd like to go to a top 7 school if possible, and my GPA at West Point is comparable to other people that have been admitted to these top schools.

What branches will put me in the best position to build a resume that will be looked favorably upon by MBA admissions boards?

Also of note, I don't have an interest in cyber, or other branches that require technical skills that could lead to civilian jobs in those fields. If I become a civilian after 5 years, I don't intend to use any of the technical skills that I learned in the Army.

Infantry. Go lead America's finest and do it well.

 

[scoutpilot]

They will not care. To most civilian admissions committees, the Army is the Army. They have no idea of what branches are and will assume you led soldiers who have different tasks to complete. An army officer tends to be a generalist. What that means is despite the fact you are in different branches, most LTs will be doing the same similar tasks. They will care if they think you can pay the tuition, so what was said about staying in longer to get the GI bill makes sense.

This is largely untrue, I'm afraid. If you look at the top schools, you'll find that most of the veterans in the most competitive classes tend to be pilots, SOF, and combat arms. Notable outliers with large representation include the Navy Nuke community. Among my class, 6 of the 18 Army admits were pilots. Only 2 were non-combat arms (MI) and the rest were engineers or infantry.

To the OP: do not plan to get an MBA. Plan to do your job well. Most of the people I know who went into the service planning their exit at the outset tended to do really poorly. They weren't invested in their job and had a short-timer's mentality. Worry about doing well every day, doing right by your soldiers, and building a resume that reflects empathy, integrity, and genuine dedication to your privileged role as an Army officer.

 

[UHBlackhawk]

Just to add to what MJ and some others have written. It’s fine to have a long term plan, but take care of the now. You never know.
My unit once had an LT show up who was adamant about getting out after his commitment was done, but he still did a great job as an LT and dove into jobs many others didn’t want. BN needed an admin officer? He volunteered for it as it would look great on his grad school application. Saw him at the advanced course and it was the same thing- he was off to grad school as soon as the Army lifted the “stop loss” on pilots. Long story short, he recently pinned on his second star. But this is his LAST assignment.
I also agree with scoutpilot. Anecdotally, combat arms seem to have a higher representation in graduate school and medical school. I’ve known numerous pilots who have been accepted to top tier grad schools, law schools and medical school.

 

[jl123]

Beware of statistics. It may be true that certain specialties receive more favorable consideration among graduate school admissions committees, but the preponderance of those specialties may also be due to sampling bias.

Using USMA due to familiarity. Before concluding that a pilot or combat arms officer has an admissions advantage, I would consider a few questions :

• Is the population of those specialties greater than the population of the less represented specialties? For USMA combat arms branches have far greater numbers than non-combat arms and Aviation has significant representation.
• Does the competitiveness of obtaining those specialties create an asymmetric distribution of military graduate school applicants? Again using USMA, Aviation requires a high class rank compared to most other branches. Also interesting to note is that Infantry draws from the highest and lowest class ranks.
• Assuming equal qualifications, would an admissions committee favor one applicant over another based on military specialty? Only an admissions officer could answer this and the answer may differ among institutions.

 

[UHBlackhawk]

Beware of statistics. It may be true that certain specialties receive more favorable consideration among graduate school admissions committees, but the preponderance of those specialties may also be due to sampling bias.

Using USMA due to familiarity. Before concluding that a pilot or combat arms officer has an admissions advantage, I would consider a few questions :

• Is the population of those specialties greater than the population of the less represented specialties? For USMA combat arms branches have far greater numbers than non-combat arms and Aviation has significant representation.
• Does the competitiveness of obtaining those specialties create an asymmetric distribution of military graduate school applicants? Again using USMA, Aviation requires a high class rank compared to most other branches. Also interesting to note is that Infantry draws from the highest and lowest class ranks.
• Assuming equal qualifications, would an admissions committee favor one applicant over another based on military specialty? Only an admissions officer could answer this and the answer may differ among institutions.

Very valid points.

 

[OldRetSWO]

They will not care. To most civilian admissions committees, the Army is the Army. They have no idea of what branches are and will assume you led soldiers who have different tasks to complete. An army officer tends to be a generalist. What that means is despite the fact you are in different branches, most LTs will be doing the same similar tasks. They will care if they think you can pay the tuition, so what was said about staying in longer to get the GI bill makes sense.

This is largely untrue, I'm afraid. If you look at the top schools, you'll find that most of the veterans in the most competitive classes tend to be pilots, SOF, and combat arms. Notable outliers with large representation include the Navy Nuke community. Among my class, 6 of the 18 Army admits were pilots. Only 2 were non-combat arms (MI) and the rest were engineers or infantry.

To the OP: do not plan to get an MBA. Plan to do your job well. Most of the people I know who went into the service planning their exit at the outset tended to do really poorly. They weren't invested in their job and had a short-timer's mentality. Worry about doing well every day, doing right by your soldiers, and building a resume that reflects empathy, integrity, and genuine dedication to your privileged role as an Army officer.

Note to your point, Navy Nukes are almost always "Combat Arms" as they are generally Submariners or Surface Warfare Officers. There are a few who are brought in as pure technologists/engineers but they do not get warfare quals.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

To the OP: do not plan to get an MBA. Plan to do your job well. Most of the people I know who went into the service planning their exit at the outset tended to do really poorly. They weren't invested in their job and had a short-timer's mentality. Worry about doing well every day, doing right by your soldiers, and building a resume that reflects empathy, integrity, and genuine dedication to your privileged role as an Army officer.

^ This ! Do what you are interested in., and you are more likely to do it well....Do it well, and success will follow in whatever endeavor your pursue!

They will not care. To most civilian admissions committees, the Army is the Army. They have no idea of what branches are and will assume you led soldiers who have different tasks to complete

This is largely untrue, I'm afraid. If you look at the top schools, you'll find that most of the veterans in the most competitive classes tend to be pilots, SOF, and combat arms

This reminds me of a recent post in Off Topic forum about Ancedotal, Emperical, and Scientific Evidence. I really don't think the observation that you will find competitive programs filled with pilots, SOF, and combat arms veterans necessarily leads to the conclusion that a civilian admissions committee is looking for these categories. My experience (anecdotal evidence !) was that my law school in general didn't know anything about the military, and could care less that I was a Naval Flight Officer. However, I would suggest that people who serve in those capacities often exhibit the characteristics of leadership, confidence, problem solving, etc. that any post graduate program or employer is looking for. That is why its important to translate your military experience to civilian terms, ie. Aviation Maintenance Division Officer = led 50 person aircraft maintenance division, ensuring mission readiness during deployment, etc.

 

[AROTC-dad]

I cannot add much to the sage wisdom above (this really is an amazing community).

My two cents: You should choose the branch you are most interested in. Having passion for it greatly increases the odds of your success, and earning the respect of your subordinates.