I appreciate the honesty, so I'll disregard the sarcasm.
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AROTC Scholarship Third Round Waiters
- Thread starter StowieJ
- Start date
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I just don't see why I can't post something, a tidbit of advice or a thought without being shut down by you. I honestly appreciated the warning the first time, but I think the attitude of the forum is definitely something that needs to be discussed.
I will openly admit my limited knowledge, but there's no reason I can think of why I can't make a comment, or propose a notion, in the hopes that others will willingly and openly build on it.
It's just how forums tend to work, so unless this is a special, "senior posters are the only ones that can give advice forum," my original comments were in order.
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StowieJ,
The issue is that your information was inaccurate and Jcleppe pointed that out. The purpose of this forum is to provide accurate information for the people who use it, and it is the job of the moderators and posters with experience in this to make sure that inaccurate information is pointed out. I also don't think posting a link to a two-year-old thread in another forum is going to get good information for anyone.
I know it is hard to be waiting, but the things you post are read by a lot of people and it needs to be accurate.
Stealth_81
StowieJ, you have been a member of ths forum for exactly 25 days and have a whopping 103 posts. Jcleppe has been a member for 5 years and has over 4500 posts! In my 2 years on this forum I have never seen such disrespect and contempt towards a senior member of this forum by a junior member as what you have displayed towards Jcleppe! If this is how you came across in your interview with the PMS then you will be very lucky to receive a scholarship. If you do get awarded a scholarship I would caution you on how you interact with your superiors otherwise your military life will be miserable and very,very short! NONE of us know the entire background story of the 2 yr old post you referenced so it is useless in your argument. Lastly, you will find most on this forum very helpful if you make an effort to listen. If you are going to post it is your responsibility to make sure what you post is accurate and VERIFIABLE.
You posted this:
"I know that from talking to people who were dropped from the course out of the blue. They do always have the right to drop you and just say that you showed no leadership potential, and then your SOL and have to pay back the scholarship as if it were a loan."
Clearly the person in your referenced post was on scholarship otherwise they would not be on the hook for $80K. If that is the case then the PMS does not have the authority to disenroll a cadet, it must be done at the CG level.
AR 145-1 section 3-43 Disenrollment
3–43. Disenrollment
A nonscholarship cadet may be disenrolled by the PMS. A scholarship cadet may be disenrolled only by the CG,
ROTCCC. (For exception, see (3) below.) Disenrollment authority does not include the discharge authority for SMP
participants. Nonscholarship and scholarship cadets will be disenrolled for the following reasons:
(1) To receive an appointment or enter an officer training program other than ROTC. The release must be approved
by the region commander or higher headquarters.
(2) To receive training under Army Medical Department programs such as Health Professional Scholarship Programs
and United States Uniform Health Services.
(3) At their own request, if they are nonscholarship basic course cadets. The 4-year scholarship cadets may be
disenrolled at their own request during the MS I only. (See para 3–39.)
(4) Because of withdrawal or dismissal from the academic institution. A former cadet may be reenrolled if he or she
enters a school that offers ROTC, provided that he or she meets the reenrollment criteria in paragraph 3–16.
(5) Medical disqualification (to include pregnancy if complications exist) when determined and approved by HQ,
ROTCCC, or higher authority. A medical condition that precludes appointment will be cause for disenrollment.
(6) Failure to maintain a minimum semester or quarter cumulative academic GPA of 2.0 on a 4.0 scale or higher if
required by the school and at least a 3.0 on a 4.0 scale or equivalent semester or quarter and cumulative average in all
ROTC courses.
(7) Personal hardship as specified in AR 635–200, chapter 6.
(8) Failure to meet the same requirements of the Army Weight Control Program and the Army Physical Fitness test
as required of active duty Soldiers prior to the end of the last school term of the MS III year.
(9) For being an approved conscientious objector.
AR 145–1 • 22 July 1996 25
(10) For being dismissed from advanced camp, receiving a recommendation not to receive credit for advanced camp
or withdrawal from advanced camp for reasons other than breach of contract. If breach of contract is involved, (see
(16) below).
(11) It is discovered that a fact or condition exists that will bar a cadet for appointment as a commissioned officer,
to include a positive urinalysis for drug and alcohol abuse. When a cadet is under charges, in confinement or under
investigation, HQDA (TAPC–OPP–P) will be notified immediately if the cadet is an MS IV and a accession file was
evaluated by HQDA ROTC Selection Board.
(12) Misconduct, demonstrated by disorderly or disrespectful conduct in the ROTC classroom or during training, or
other misconduct that substantially interferes with the ROTC mission, including participation in unlawful demonstrations
against the ROTC, illegal interference with rights of other ROTC students, or similar acts.
(13) Inaptitude for military service as demonstrated by lack of general adaptability, skill, hardiness, ability to learn,
or leadership abilities.
(14) Undesirable character demonstrated by cheating on examinations, stealing, unlawful possession, use, distribution,
manufacture, sale (including attempts) of any controlled substances, as listed or defined in 21 USC 812,
discreditable incidents with civil or university authorities, falsifying academic records or any forms of academic
dishonesty, failure to pay just debts, or similar acts. Such acts may also be characterized as misconduct.
(15) Indifferent attitude or lack of interest in military training as evidenced by frequent absences from military
science classes or drill, an established pattern of shirking, failure to successfully complete an established weight control
program, or similar acts.
(16) Breach of contract (including formerly used term willful evasion). (
Note: Breach is defined as any act,
performance or nonperformance on the part of a student that breaches the terms of the contract regardless of whether
the act, performance or nonperformance was done with specific intent to breach the contract or whether the student
knew that the act, performance or nonperformance breaches the contract).
(17)
Rescinded.
b.
A board of officers will be appointed by the PMS, the brigade commander, or the region commander according to
the formal procedures outlined in AR 15–6, as modified by this regulation (see AR 15–6, para 1–1) and guidance from
the CG, ROTCCC, to consider the case of each cadet considered for disenrollment under subparagraph
a(13) through
(16) above, or when deemed necessary. Additionally, in cases where a board of officers is not appointed, the PMS will
appoint an investigating officer to inquire into the case of any scholarship or advanced course cadet being considered
for disenrollment, to include voluntary disenrollment or disenrollment to join another officer procurement program.
Disenrollment for medical reasons will be referred to CG, ROTCCC for review and approval. The appointing authority
will determine whether the formal or informal procedures of AR 15–6 will be used. However, in every case, the
student concerned has the right to appear personally before the board or officer conducting the investigation. The cadet
is entitled to be assisted in the preparation of the hearing by any reasonable available military officer (who need not be
an attorney) or may hire civilian counsel at his or her own expense. However, the counsel may not represent the cadet
at the hearing, although counsel may be available to give advice. At least one school official will be permitted to
observe any hearings that may arise from the appointment of such board or investigation. Notwithstanding any
provision of AR 15–6, cadets who are the subject of disenrollment are not entitled to counsel at Government expense.
The requirement for appointment of a board of officers or investigating officers is waived if the student subject to
disenrollment action voluntarily waives in writing) his or her right to such board review within 10 days of notification
of pending disenrollment.
c.
Cadets undergoing board or investigative action will be placed on LOA when the cadet is notified of the board of
investigative hearing which will suspend tuition and subsistence payments pending outcome of the board or investigation.
The ROTC contract will be annotated to show the date and reason for disenrollment or discharge.
d.
A cadet disenrolled under b above will not be authorized to participate in ROTC training as a conditional student
or permitted to audit the course, unless school policy authorizes such participation.
e.
A cadet who is involuntarily ordered to active duty for breach of his or her contract will be so ordered within 60
days after they would normally complete baccalaureate degree requirements, provided the cadet continues to pursue a
baccalaureate degree at the school where they are enrolled in the ROTC or the school where the cadet has agreed to
pursue such degree, if the school where he or she is enrolled does not offer that degree. If not academically enrolled,
the cadet will be ordered to active duty 60 days from date of notification of active duty. Graduate students may not be
ordered to active duty until they complete the academic year in which they are enrolled, or disenroll from the school,
whichever occurs first.
You posted this:
"I know that from talking to people who were dropped from the course out of the blue. They do always have the right to drop you and just say that you showed no leadership potential, and then your SOL and have to pay back the scholarship as if it were a loan."
Clearly the person in your referenced post was on scholarship otherwise they would not be on the hook for $80K. If that is the case then the PMS does not have the authority to disenroll a cadet, it must be done at the CG level.
AR 145-1 section 3-43 Disenrollment
3–43. Disenrollment
A nonscholarship cadet may be disenrolled by the PMS. A scholarship cadet may be disenrolled only by the CG,
ROTCCC. (For exception, see (3) below.) Disenrollment authority does not include the discharge authority for SMP
participants. Nonscholarship and scholarship cadets will be disenrolled for the following reasons:
(1) To receive an appointment or enter an officer training program other than ROTC. The release must be approved
by the region commander or higher headquarters.
(2) To receive training under Army Medical Department programs such as Health Professional Scholarship Programs
and United States Uniform Health Services.
(3) At their own request, if they are nonscholarship basic course cadets. The 4-year scholarship cadets may be
disenrolled at their own request during the MS I only. (See para 3–39.)
(4) Because of withdrawal or dismissal from the academic institution. A former cadet may be reenrolled if he or she
enters a school that offers ROTC, provided that he or she meets the reenrollment criteria in paragraph 3–16.
(5) Medical disqualification (to include pregnancy if complications exist) when determined and approved by HQ,
ROTCCC, or higher authority. A medical condition that precludes appointment will be cause for disenrollment.
(6) Failure to maintain a minimum semester or quarter cumulative academic GPA of 2.0 on a 4.0 scale or higher if
required by the school and at least a 3.0 on a 4.0 scale or equivalent semester or quarter and cumulative average in all
ROTC courses.
(7) Personal hardship as specified in AR 635–200, chapter 6.
(8) Failure to meet the same requirements of the Army Weight Control Program and the Army Physical Fitness test
as required of active duty Soldiers prior to the end of the last school term of the MS III year.
(9) For being an approved conscientious objector.
AR 145–1 • 22 July 1996 25
(10) For being dismissed from advanced camp, receiving a recommendation not to receive credit for advanced camp
or withdrawal from advanced camp for reasons other than breach of contract. If breach of contract is involved, (see
(16) below).
(11) It is discovered that a fact or condition exists that will bar a cadet for appointment as a commissioned officer,
to include a positive urinalysis for drug and alcohol abuse. When a cadet is under charges, in confinement or under
investigation, HQDA (TAPC–OPP–P) will be notified immediately if the cadet is an MS IV and a accession file was
evaluated by HQDA ROTC Selection Board.
(12) Misconduct, demonstrated by disorderly or disrespectful conduct in the ROTC classroom or during training, or
other misconduct that substantially interferes with the ROTC mission, including participation in unlawful demonstrations
against the ROTC, illegal interference with rights of other ROTC students, or similar acts.
(13) Inaptitude for military service as demonstrated by lack of general adaptability, skill, hardiness, ability to learn,
or leadership abilities.
(14) Undesirable character demonstrated by cheating on examinations, stealing, unlawful possession, use, distribution,
manufacture, sale (including attempts) of any controlled substances, as listed or defined in 21 USC 812,
discreditable incidents with civil or university authorities, falsifying academic records or any forms of academic
dishonesty, failure to pay just debts, or similar acts. Such acts may also be characterized as misconduct.
(15) Indifferent attitude or lack of interest in military training as evidenced by frequent absences from military
science classes or drill, an established pattern of shirking, failure to successfully complete an established weight control
program, or similar acts.
(16) Breach of contract (including formerly used term willful evasion). (
Note: Breach is defined as any act,
performance or nonperformance on the part of a student that breaches the terms of the contract regardless of whether
the act, performance or nonperformance was done with specific intent to breach the contract or whether the student
knew that the act, performance or nonperformance breaches the contract).
(17)
Rescinded.
b.
A board of officers will be appointed by the PMS, the brigade commander, or the region commander according to
the formal procedures outlined in AR 15–6, as modified by this regulation (see AR 15–6, para 1–1) and guidance from
the CG, ROTCCC, to consider the case of each cadet considered for disenrollment under subparagraph
a(13) through
(16) above, or when deemed necessary. Additionally, in cases where a board of officers is not appointed, the PMS will
appoint an investigating officer to inquire into the case of any scholarship or advanced course cadet being considered
for disenrollment, to include voluntary disenrollment or disenrollment to join another officer procurement program.
Disenrollment for medical reasons will be referred to CG, ROTCCC for review and approval. The appointing authority
will determine whether the formal or informal procedures of AR 15–6 will be used. However, in every case, the
student concerned has the right to appear personally before the board or officer conducting the investigation. The cadet
is entitled to be assisted in the preparation of the hearing by any reasonable available military officer (who need not be
an attorney) or may hire civilian counsel at his or her own expense. However, the counsel may not represent the cadet
at the hearing, although counsel may be available to give advice. At least one school official will be permitted to
observe any hearings that may arise from the appointment of such board or investigation. Notwithstanding any
provision of AR 15–6, cadets who are the subject of disenrollment are not entitled to counsel at Government expense.
The requirement for appointment of a board of officers or investigating officers is waived if the student subject to
disenrollment action voluntarily waives in writing) his or her right to such board review within 10 days of notification
of pending disenrollment.
c.
Cadets undergoing board or investigative action will be placed on LOA when the cadet is notified of the board of
investigative hearing which will suspend tuition and subsistence payments pending outcome of the board or investigation.
The ROTC contract will be annotated to show the date and reason for disenrollment or discharge.
d.
A cadet disenrolled under b above will not be authorized to participate in ROTC training as a conditional student
or permitted to audit the course, unless school policy authorizes such participation.
e.
A cadet who is involuntarily ordered to active duty for breach of his or her contract will be so ordered within 60
days after they would normally complete baccalaureate degree requirements, provided the cadet continues to pursue a
baccalaureate degree at the school where they are enrolled in the ROTC or the school where the cadet has agreed to
pursue such degree, if the school where he or she is enrolled does not offer that degree. If not academically enrolled,
the cadet will be ordered to active duty 60 days from date of notification of active duty. Graduate students may not be
ordered to active duty until they complete the academic year in which they are enrolled, or disenroll from the school,
whichever occurs first.
StowieJ, looks like we cross posted.
Jcleppe, I want to appologize for any disrespect I've shown you.
To the entire forum, I want to appologize for my incorrect statements.
Well done. Now please stick around and ask questions, seek opinions and lean on us for support. That is what we are all here for. If you do not receive a scholarship all is not lost. You will have the opprutunity to compete for one at the unit level. Good luck.
Jcleppe, I want to appologize for any disrespect I've shown you.
To the entire forum, I want to appologize for my incorrect statements.
Well done. Now please stick around and ask questions, seek opinions and lean on us for support. That is what we are all here for. If you do not receive a scholarship all is not lost. You will have the opprutunity to compete for one at the unit level. Good luck.
[QUOTE="Jcleppe, post
SnowMom,
There are always plenty of cadets that commission each year that were never on a scholarship. When your son starts ROTC as a MS1, scholarship cadets will be a small minority. If the battalion and brigade has the funds and available slots they "May" offer either upgrades to existing scholarship cadets or offer scholarships to other cadets. At the end of the cadets sophomore year the battalion will decide whether to move the cadet (Non Scholarship) from the Basic Course to the Advanced Course that starts Junior year. At this point the battalion will decide whether to offer the cadet a contract. Being contracted as a MS3 has nothing to do with scholarships. Many cadets move to the Advanced Course with a contract that are not offered scholarships.
As a non scholarship cadet moves throughROTC they may decide to join the National Guard/Reserves and become a SMP cadet, some will accept a GRFD Scholarship which locks them into the NG/Reserves, there are many options.
When a cadet that is not on scholarship receives a contract they will receive the monthly stipend from the start of the contract.
Non scholarship cadets have the same opportunity to compete for Active Duty and Branches as a Scholarship cadet. The scholarship does not matter and is not a consideration in the OML.
If a battalion has the money and slots, and the cadet is near or at the top of his/her ROTC class, they would have a much better chance at a scholarship, if they only have one scholarship to give then you don't want to be number two on the list.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. I will share this with my son because when weighing his college choices, he needs to understand that it is a possibility of not receiving one at all (a scholarship)...I understand it all depends on the battalion, my son, the school, etc.
SnowMom,
There are always plenty of cadets that commission each year that were never on a scholarship. When your son starts ROTC as a MS1, scholarship cadets will be a small minority. If the battalion and brigade has the funds and available slots they "May" offer either upgrades to existing scholarship cadets or offer scholarships to other cadets. At the end of the cadets sophomore year the battalion will decide whether to move the cadet (Non Scholarship) from the Basic Course to the Advanced Course that starts Junior year. At this point the battalion will decide whether to offer the cadet a contract. Being contracted as a MS3 has nothing to do with scholarships. Many cadets move to the Advanced Course with a contract that are not offered scholarships.
As a non scholarship cadet moves throughROTC they may decide to join the National Guard/Reserves and become a SMP cadet, some will accept a GRFD Scholarship which locks them into the NG/Reserves, there are many options.
When a cadet that is not on scholarship receives a contract they will receive the monthly stipend from the start of the contract.
Non scholarship cadets have the same opportunity to compete for Active Duty and Branches as a Scholarship cadet. The scholarship does not matter and is not a consideration in the OML.
If a battalion has the money and slots, and the cadet is near or at the top of his/her ROTC class, they would have a much better chance at a scholarship, if they only have one scholarship to give then you don't want to be number two on the list.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. I will share this with my son because when weighing his college choices, he needs to understand that it is a possibility of not receiving one at all (a scholarship)...I understand it all depends on the battalion, my son, the school, etc.
-Bull-
10-Year Member
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- Mar 13, 2009
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I don't mean this negatively, but you really don't know what you're talking about, and misinformation makes things worse. It's great you want to help and all of you candidates are excited about your new scholarships, but you still don't know jack squat about ROTC or even college for that matter. It will come soon enough and then you can take the reigns. This isn't directed solely at you either, but rather all candidates. Stick to what you know
Regards
Edit: Sorry, Kinnem, I just saw the 2nd page. This has become a nightmare.
Last edited:
-Bull-
10-Year Member
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- Mar 13, 2009
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Solid advice right here. Scholarships are simply an incentive if needed.
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Yes. Yes, it has.
-Bull-
10-Year Member
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Good topic and a challenging one at that. I've heard conflicting feedback that school-based ROTC scholarships are far more difficult to acquire than some think. I am with you, my DS is a solid candidate who has and should continue to do very well. However, anything can happen once they land at an SMC and I struggle with "rolling the dice" on an overly expensive school with the hope that my DS will secure a school-based deal in his sophomore or junior years. That's a risky proposition at $48k a year. And the last thing I want to do is take him out because of finances. So here I sit with a hard-charging, smart, patriotic, ambitious, and very physically fit/healthy DS who has yet to receive an award. My plan B (as head of financedoesn't necessarily align with his.
Your son sounds like a very promising young man that will do very well in his future. I know the scholarship process can be tough, but don't think that by not receiving a scholarship means he is any less qualified to become an officer. Some of the best cadets, now officers, I know we're not on scholarship as cadets, and some of the worst cadets, some now out of the program, were 4 year scholarship winners. Campus-based scholarships are indeed tough to get, and probably harder than people realize, but if he shows up to campus ready to kick ass, he has a real good chance. The best way to stand out initially is to max the APFT since they will not have college grades yet. If he works hard over the summer to prepare to max his APFT, I think he has a pretty good shot. Best of luck to him, feel free to PM me if you have questions.
I have a quick question. I am waiting for the third final board. But my account has been showing the the Academic Information is Pending Approval. It has been showing the same thing and not changing to "approved" for a while. I was wondering if anyone knows why this is happening or if this also happened to your application? thanks
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Yup, everything is completed and uploaded.
Screenshot of my dashboard.
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Have you tried contacting them? It may just that they're bogged down on their end at CC.
OVO
OVO
Before the first board it took about 2 weeks to change. Also, you have to check with your guidance counselor too, because mine had to fill in a document online. So the guidance counselor feedback changed at the same time as my academic information status changed.
Just make sure you have your stuff in before the final submission date. I can only imagine how much it would suck to miss it completely, especially after the amount of work you have already done.
CC is slow. Don't worry if things take a while. But if it seems unusually call your POC. Or send them an email to figure it out.
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For what it's worth...I received $100 a month stipend my last two years of ROTC. I was not a scholarship Cadet and was never even considered for one. In my current junior class at Clarkson I have 5 Cadets who are contracted non scholarship. They are getting paid quite a bit more than $100 a month.
The other thing to keep in mind is that if you are at a big school or an SMC there are probably going to be a larger number of non scholarship Cadets. The goal in the last 10 years has always been to be about 60-75% scholarship in a cohort (don't quote me on that...it's a rough SWAG and changes all the time). In my case I usually have about 18 commissionees and 4-5 are usually non scholarship or SMP. My goal every year is to get all of them a scholarship, but that never quite happens. So, the answer to Snowmom's question is there are going to be some that don't ever get a scholarship.
Stowie...not trying to pick on you, but there is a poster like you every year that's a high school applicant that likes to answer every thread with their limited experience.
The other thing to keep in mind is that if you are at a big school or an SMC there are probably going to be a larger number of non scholarship Cadets. The goal in the last 10 years has always been to be about 60-75% scholarship in a cohort (don't quote me on that...it's a rough SWAG and changes all the time). In my case I usually have about 18 commissionees and 4-5 are usually non scholarship or SMP. My goal every year is to get all of them a scholarship, but that never quite happens. So, the answer to Snowmom's question is there are going to be some that don't ever get a scholarship.
Stowie...not trying to pick on you, but there is a poster like you every year that's a high school applicant that likes to answer every thread with their limited experience.