Wrong again- listen to him again. He earlier explains in the part about " With which it stands.....SO BLESSED BY GOD" ... Good try. I don't mind being attacked on all sides. I will stand in truth.
Atheist Groups Warns Florida Schools to Comply with New Pledge of Allegiance Law - Or Else
- Thread starter cga82
- Start date
Wrong again- listen to him again. He earlier explains in the part about " With which it stands.....SO BLESSED BY GOD" ... Good try. I don't mind being attacked on all sides. I will stand in truth.
Bullet
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2008
- Messages
- 986
You're standing in the "truth" about what is important to the foundations of this country as espoused by Red Skelton. I prefer to stand on the truths as espoused by the framers of our Constitution. Think about that.
I admire your passion. It's what you choose to defend your positions with that baffles me.
You also said "What Mr. Skelton beautifully describes and PROVIDES THE IMPORTANCE OF in the Pledge is every word of the Pledge"
That sounds pretty good to me. I guess you went back and listen to Mr. Skelton--what did you find from our 1st discussion? Did he use GOD when he described the words in the Pledge of Allegiance.
Are these the same framers that your bud scout called "old white racist". You better talk that over with scoutpilot.
Red Skelton spoke the truth. When I meet God, I will tell him how important it was to me to recite those words as per the meaning that Skelton gave. I see no wrong in them and believe that others may benefit as I have from them.
I have no issue with what Red said. I just choose to believe that this nation was founded under one document, not God. A document that makes no reference to God. In fact it was founded at a convention that chose to not have prayer to keep a separation of church and state. And that is great you find nothing wrong with them. Many think the other way and there is nothing wrong with that. And I have no idea what Scout said or context, but I found it a low blow to reference what someone else said in an inflammatory way when bullet has made no reference to that here. How is adding those words adding any validity to the discussion?
I disagree with you and Bullet again. Please take a look at the framers.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjSob6YzOzMAhWNsh4KHVXzB1gQFggiMAE&url=http://www.aproundtable.org/tps30info/beliefs.html&usg=AFQjCNGQTLCRIV6QwuT1MlKFsMymRJtO6Q&sig2=h5RS_cIfiIifz7BE-UPPiw
Good night-God Bless
No, but creator does.
I stated earlier that Christianity played a large role in the founding of the nation and I can appreciate and understand that in a historical context. Darwin still hadn't come along yet so creationism was the predominate belief. I also stated that the founders spent a great deal of time and discourse ensuring that church and state remained separate at the convention with the main objective to prevent a theocracy. There are a couple spots in the Constitution that could be inferred that they were referring to a Creator or God, but I choose to believe if they wanted God or Creator there they would have used them. They pained over every word chosen in that document and spent months creating it, I believe each word was chosen with purpose. I could post random Google articles to support my arguments but pretty sure you could find them just fine if you wanted to. Besides we aren't going to agree on this topic, but I am fine with that.
You mean like Jerry Falwell Jr. He supports Trump and Trump actually quoted the Bible at Liberty University.
I mean really. Just read "Two" Corinthians 3:17. "It's the whole Ball Game."
This takes the cake as the stupidest discussion I've ever read.
As a died in the wool Presbyterian, I am solidly with Navy on this one.
The fact of the matter is the signers of the Declaration and the authors of the Constitution were as diverse in their religious beliefs and any group of white European men in the late 1800's could possibly be. The politicization of those beliefs or lack thereof was as strong and nasty as anything we see today.
In the end, there was consensus that looks pretty much like Navy described.
Everyone should take some time to read the arguments at the time of the Constitutional Convention and the Post-presidency letters between Thomas Jefferson and John Adams.
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2007
- Messages
- 9,295
Good catch. I may do the mobile post thing less....
There are no atheist in the fox holes.
If you get a chance, watch "God on Trial". A well put together movie. The final scene is most the most impact.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...6pE4ClOqO9bPwutF8nd1YA&bvm=bv.122448493,d.cWw
If you get a chance, watch "God on Trial". A well put together movie. The final scene is most the most impact.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...6pE4ClOqO9bPwutF8nd1YA&bvm=bv.122448493,d.cWw
Last edited:
I'm disappointed you didn't catch "died" in the wool.
Now off to Sunday School.
As a former Marine who spent my share of time all over Iraq and Afghanistan there was at least 1, me! And I knew plenty of Atheists who served. In fact there are 3 in my house right now. So do you know our religous or non-religious beliefs better than we do? Have you walked section 60 and seen the diversity on head stones that include Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Wiccans and Atheists? And that is just a small sampling. You also realize that there is an approved Atheist and Humanist symbol from the VA for head stones?
ca2midwestmom
5-Year Member
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2013
- Messages
- 1,335
Interesting. The Hammer of Thor -- "a fitting symbol for any noble warrior", "appropriate that American soldiers can now request the symbol for Thor’s Hammer be placed on their headstone if they die in the line of duty." "Thor’s hammer is a noble weapon. Even to modern practitioners of Germanic neopaganism—also known as Odinism—it represents honor, virtue, self-reliance, truthfulness, and strength of personal character."
Considering how many times WP cadets pray to Odin for rain on parade days, I wonder if my baptized & confirmed DS, who became atheist in high school, has heard this.
For my father, we went with the good ol' Presbyterian cross.
A few years ago when a close friend of mine died we were reviewing the lists with his mom to select a headstone. I didn't know the Thor one and had to look it up! My will states a Humanist symbol. I have actually met a few Humanist clergy. It's actually an extremely fast growing group of clergy and group of people. It used to be extremely rare, but I have seen it change greatly over the last decade plus.
Bullet
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2008
- Messages
- 986
Once again, you continue to drag a conversation down rabbit-holes with links and points barely related to what you were originally trying to defend that it almost appears you're attempting som distraction technique to keep folks from seeing how thin the defense of your original argument is.
Of course people be should be allowed to follow the religion of their choosing. Of course our Founding Fathers held strong Christian beliefs (what European based Colonists DIDN'T in the 1700s?). Of course having the background of strong faith can help provide a strong moral foundation as well (but this has been proven to not be the case in a frightenly large number of examples).
But these were not what I interpreteded to be your main point in your OP, so let's remind you what it was. You were not so subtlety implying that allowing children to not participate in the Pledge of Alligience was more than disrespectful, it was another sign of the slow moral decay of this country and another crumbling block in the foundation of what makes this country strong and special. To you, removing any and all references o God's importance to this country (and let's be clear about this, these references are EXCLUSIVELY to a Christian God because this is what our founders, and the politicians who added this language in the 1950s out of fear of "Commies", believed in) is a mistake as it allows this continued moral decay. It's an attack on what makes America strong.
To me, what makes America strong and special is the fact that EVERYONE has the right to NOT be forced to say a certain thing, follow a certain belief, or espouse a certain creed. By ensuring we support the rights of a child to not be forced to say something or do something they don't follow or believe in, we are once again showing our support for what the Founding Fathers intended this Country to be. If these kids don't want to stand or recite the Pledge, they have EVERY right not to. Forcing them to do so only takes away those rights. Is it an outward sign of disrespect and defiance by some? Sure, but you know how immature some can be in the name of taking pride in their defiance. Usually, as someone has pointed out, most mature folks will just stand out of respect for others and remain silent on the parts they don't agree with. But again, they have the right not to if they choose.
You take this as a sign of our Country's impending doom. I, and many others, take this as an affirmation of our Country's strength and assurity of it's continuation as the Founding Fathers envisioned.
Besides, I usually start rolling my eyes when someone starts talking about Conservatives who wave their Bible as having the moral high-ground. Their are too many things they support that are in exact opposition to the teachings of Christ that I find their smugness on the topic annoying. But that is a conversation for another thread, and one that has no use to the purpose to these forums and therefore shouldn't occur here.
Did you watch the movie? Could you not make the correlation in the final scenes about God and leaving God out of the pledge and atheist(non belief in God). These Jews yet in disagree yet come together in the end-like a fox hole. No-one is talking higher ground here just hope through thought for our country to not divide what our founding fathers set forth for America. This country with the framers has incorporated God into our fabric as Americans. The Pledge of Allegiance has God in it and is part of our Fabric. Atheist want that part of the fabric removed. Everyone here doesn't want to hear it and I'm not the best spokesman(and this will be shot gunned to death-I'll wait below) but I try.
Last edited:
Have you studied the history of the Pledge of Allegiance? The original Pledge had no reference to God and was added in the 50s. The origins of the pledge are from a socialist preacher before the turn of the 20th century and had no reference to any nation or religion. So we have taken an item written by a socialist preacher and morphed it over a nearly 50+ year period to what it is today. So I find it interesting when those argue that the Framers were Christians and it is woven in the fabric of our history in regards to the Pledge specifically when it's an item written by a Preacher who did not use God and a socialist Preacher at that. How does any of that align with Christian Democratic values that our Framers found so important?
So back to your point that our nation will detoriate if we remove God. Is the Pledge not about patriotism and support of our nation? So if someone is a patriot and loves this nation and happens to disagree with that point, how has that harmed anyone? How am I leading to the detoriation of our nation? I don't know ca2midwestmom, but guessing she and her husband are great parents and raised a patriotic son who has chosen Atheism. How did that contribute to the detoriation of society? Pretty sure her son is and will contribute plenty to it. I raised my right hand, like many other atheists, agnostics and those who don't follow a Christian God... We chose to defend a nation, not a God.
So back to your point that our nation will detoriate if we remove God. Is the Pledge not about patriotism and support of our nation? So if someone is a patriot and loves this nation and happens to disagree with that point, how has that harmed anyone? How am I leading to the detoriation of our nation? I don't know ca2midwestmom, but guessing she and her husband are great parents and raised a patriotic son who has chosen Atheism. How did that contribute to the detoriation of society? Pretty sure her son is and will contribute plenty to it. I raised my right hand, like many other atheists, agnostics and those who don't follow a Christian God... We chose to defend a nation, not a God.