Atheist Groups Warns Florida Schools to Comply with New Pledge of Allegiance Law - Or Else

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cga82 said:
No-one is talking higher ground here just hope through thought for our country to not divide what our founding fathers set forth for America. This country with the framers has incorporated God into our fabric as Americans. The Pledge of Allegiance has God in it and is part of our Fabric.
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Scout and Navy corrected your history of the Pledge.

As for the "Framers"...With all due respect CGA, did you read the same History books at Michelle "The Founding Fathers worked tirelessly to end slavery" Bachmann?

The framers' field of reference was the recent history of religious wars in Europe which occurred for centuries. The relatively recent experience of Great Britain from the death of Elizabeth I to the ascension of William of Orange in 1689, essentially coinciding with the settlement of North America, which was filled with religious strife. It informed their very deliberate separation of Church and State. They even had the experience of individual colonies applying religious tests. Yes, there were Framers, like John Adams, whose conventional and/or orthodox views of religion informed their worldviews and they lobbied for something like what you are imagining was settled upon. Others, who self-identified as "Deists", non-Christians, like Thomas Jefferson who passionately argued something akin to what Navy is saying. In the end, there was definite nod the sensibilities of what was a Christian Nation, but a hard and fast separation between the affairs of the Church and the affairs of the gov't.

With our 21st view of the "Old White Guys", it is hard to imagine the religious heterogeneity of 18th century America as being something new exciting and revolutionary. Yes, there were only small numbers of Jews and Catholics, but their numbers increased joining the masses of Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Methodists, Dutch Reformed, Lutherans, Unitarians, Congregationalists, Baptists, Anabaptists, Quakers, Shakers, Huguenots who had found a safe place to exercise their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The draw still remains the same today.
 
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To the point. Removing God from our lives has and will mete out consequences. Not a laughing matter.
 
There were times my son would comment that he was the only one in his high school 1st period class that would stand for the Pledge. His comment was that they have the right to stand, sit, say nothing at all, he just thought it was a little sad, I tend to agree.

Take a look around the next time your at a ball game or a large gathering when the National Anthem is played, more then half in attendance never put their hand over their heart anymore, many don't even stand, this includes all ages.

I agree that it is each individuals right to do what they want in this regard, for me it just a matter of respect. As far as "Under God", I can take it or leave it, was never part of the original pledge anyway.
 
When I was in the fifth grade, over 40 years ago, we had one student who refused to even stand up for the pledge of allegiance. That was fairly rare in those days. So the teacher had the student stand outside the classroom when the class stood to recite the pledge. After the pledge the student was immediately brought back into the classroom. The student's refusal to stand seemed disrespectful to the pledge and our nation. I really liked the fact that the student wasn't permitted to in my view be disrespectful to the views of others and of our great nation. The decision to have the student wait outside the classroom during the pledge seemed like a good solution for both parties.
If we fast forward this another couple years I would expect that anyone reciting the pledge will be viewed as micro-aggressors. I mean in today's world, how can all the people who claim this country has oppressed their ancestors be forced to even listen to the pledge or bear the sight of the flag?
 
Ice64 said:
The student's refusal to stand seemed disrespectful to the pledge and our nation.
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I stand for the National Anthem at ball games, but sit quietly during the playing of *Lee Greenwood's "God Bless The USA" and people look very disapprovingly at me, as if I'm the reincarnation of Che Guevara.

(*I wonder if those same self-righteous morality police who are judging me for sitting know he's been married 4 times and was a former blackjack dealer in Vegas?)
 
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I take those that sit during the pledge as ungrateful for, or ignorant of the providence in their lives that allows them to live in the United States of America.

If they choose not to recite "under God", no problem. No one can make anyone stand or sit during the anthem or pledge. That comes from either living with a patriot, or a parent that has taught them otherwise.

That's how we are in America. Kids tend to emulate parents when it comes to religion, politics, and patriotism. Live with a staunch Baptist, you'll probably grow up Baptist. Live with an Atheist that takes every opportunity to disavow God, and kids will likely follow. It is everyone's right.

I just don't understand why anyone would brag about being an athiest.

As to CGA82, I don't know him, but I respect him. Has he been banned? And, was it for something in this thread?
 
Jcleppe said:
There were times my son would comment that he was the only one in his high school 1st period class that would stand for the Pledge. His comment was that they have the right to stand, sit, say nothing at all, he just thought it was a little sad, I tend to agree.

Take a look around the next time your at a ball game or a large gathering when the National Anthem is played, more then half in attendance never put their hand over their heart anymore, many don't even stand, this includes all ages.

I agree that it is each individuals right to do what they want in this regard, for me it just a matter of respect. As far as "Under God", I can take it or leave it, was never part of the original pledge anyway.
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It is sad. Like I said earlier, kids do what they're taught to do. Sometimes it is passive teaching on the part of parents, but the effect is the same. Parents that serve and are patriotic often have kids that grow up serving and respecting their flag and country. Parents that are actively involved in religion often raise children loyal to that religion.

Conversely, children with parents that don't go to church or parents that don't hold education dear, are often affected in negative ways. Kids with parents that don't work, parents that don't set moral, ethical examples, often grow up doing the same. Parents that take drugs, drink, or smoke, tend to have children that fall into the trap.

It is easy to see the alliances on this forum. Sometimes it feels like the elementary schoolyard with the ganging up on some posters.

And, good one AJC, you got me there.
 
Maplerock said:
I take those that sit during the pledge as ungrateful for, or ignorant of the providence in their lives that allows them to live in the United States of America.
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Let's keep in mind that there are many folks out there who have great difficulty standing. Not that they can't, but that it's very, very difficult and fatiguing. This includes folks who otherwise look perfectly healthy. This includes young and old, but obviously more old.
 
^Kids often do things they were not taught, in order to test the waters, rebel or because they question what else is out there (ie kids trying alcohol while growing up with teetotaler parents; kids skipping class with "teacher" parents; kids questioning religion/politics that are different from their parents; kids having sex while being instructed to abstain). Good luck if you think your kids will follow your lead 100%. Mine grew up with religion, and a set of expectations, standards and morals to follow, and although I consider myself liberal, my kids have done fewer rebellious behaviors than most of their friends or my friends' kids.

You're painting quite a broad stroke with your moral (Christian) paint brush.
 
kinnem said:
Let's keep in mind that there are many folks out there who have great difficulty standing. Not that they can't, but that it's very, very difficult and fatiguing. This includes folks who otherwise look perfectly healthy. This includes young and old, but obviously more old.
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Kinnem, I like you more with every post of yours that I read.
 
kinnem said:
Let's keep in mind that there are many folks out there who have great difficulty standing. Not that they can't, but that it's very, very difficult and fatiguing. This includes folks who otherwise look perfectly healthy. This includes young and old, but obviously more old.
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In all respect to your moderation skills, I call bulldung on that one.

Firstly, you know I wasn't talking about the handicapped. Secondly, the Patriots I know would try to stand. If they couldn't, their hand would be on their heart.
 
ca2midwestmom said:
although I consider myself liberal, my kids have done fewer rebellious behaviors than most of their friends or my friends' kids.
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Really? You're a liberal? Never would have guessed it.

And, I never painted with broad Christian morals stokes. I painted with reality. You don't think kids are a product of their environment... MOST OF THE TIME?
 
EOD/SEALmom said:
BOOM. That's what our country was founded on.
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"All officers of the seven Uniformed services of the United States swear or affirm an oath of office upon commissioning. It differs slightly from that of the oath of enlistment that enlisted members recite when they enter the service. It is required by statute, the oath being prescribed by Section 3331, Title 5, United States Code.[1] It is traditional for officers to recite the oath upon promotion but as long as the officer's service is continuous this is not actually required.[2] One notable difference between the officer and enlisted oaths is that the oath taken by officers does not include any provision to obey orders; while enlisted personnel are bound by the Uniform Code of Military Justice to obey lawful orders"

"I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."

I took this oath when I was commissioned 31 years ago on this day in 1985 and 5 additional times after being promoted. I don't care to get into the semantics of "under God" over the Pledge of Allegiance but this is what you recite and sign on the NAVPERS 1421/7. Maybe it will be changed some day to "defend the nation," but at least during my period of Naval service, this is what I recited and was repeated by the officer or enlisted sailor I was promoting.
 
My kids also grew up with a set of expectations for proper behavior, service to their country & fellow citizens, and personal achievement. So far, so good, as evidenced by the outcomes I've reported here in the past.

However, other than my husband (bless his heart), we are a liberal atheist family. I personally find the pledge to be a bit too creepy and nationalistic for my taste. My daughter says she stands up and says it in class, but omits the "under God" portion.

Being a lifelong atheist who hasn't murdered anyone or eaten any babies yet, I fail to see any connection at all between religious belief, reciting a daily poem, proper behavior and patriotism. In fact, it's often quite the opposite.
 
ca2midwestmom said:
Looking at some of today's "Christians," it's easy to see why so many people question mainstream religions and are looking for something else.
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Call it bulldung all you want, it doesn't make it less true, And I'm not talking about people you would call handicapped. You can't even see their handicap. I agree their hand should be over their heart IF THEY CAN.
 
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