I am very glad I never hired these guys to pave my driveway! They start, they stop. It snows, they wait until it melts. They seem to have very few guys working to move one dirt pile to another. Part of it looks nice, and the rest is one big dirt pile. What is the delay here?
Barney Square rehab mess
- Thread starter nmlcfp
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two words: Government Contracting.
Luigi59
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or two other words: Union Labor.
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I think the lion share of the graduates of this academy sailing on their license are "union labor".
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It seems to me from the general comments here on this subject that a couple of things are probably true of the posters to this thread:
1) none are civil engineers
2) none have been involved in anything more complex in this regard then perhaps getting a contractor to come out to their residence and install a patio...
3) none really know the hows, whats and why fors relative to "Government Contracting" requirements and/or standard terms and conditions for facilities and those applicable sections of the Federal Acquisition Requirements.
Suffice it to say I'm sure it's easy to sum up why the project isn't done to some degree because of all three reasons cited here, along with I'd hazard to guess the fact that the underlying infrastructure to which the contractor had to tie into for the thermal field probably wasn't entirely accurately documented since that's the sort of thing that used to happen when facilities were quickly built during and shortly after WWII...
I would only say I for one would be quite upset if the contractor tried to lay asphalt when the temperatures and weather conditions weren't warm enough and proper as if they did the asphalt installed would likely not last and the mess would only rapidly recur.
As far as why the contractor probably seems to be moving dirt from one place to another without purpose I'd guess it's because they are working in a confined area, one without a really adequate "lay-down" area that is big enough so they don't have to put things (i.e. material or what we lay people call "dirt") "here" and then move it "over there" so they can then work "here"...etc.
As for why they might be showing up with just a few guys and not seeming to make much progress that probably is a combination of the Government Contract that likely requires a continued good faith effort to make reasonable progress, Union Work Agreements that require the contractor to keep his preferred core team in his employ, and the general conditions that preclude them from physically trying to just put what would be the equivalent of nine woman in place to gestate a baby in a month...in other words something that would be impossible because to do the job right requires them to follow a logical sequence of operations and right now they have some real constraint precluding them from completing one or more key tasks in the critical path. Of course when the complexity of the whole job is nothing more than clearing away some sod, leveling an area so it has a modest pitch so it drains properly, compacting the soil and pouring a patio for example it's all pretty simple. Unfortunately installing a geothermal HVAC system and it's supporting infrastructure into a 40 year old building that's part of a campus of them, while a student body continues to use the facilities is probably a little more complex than anything I've had to do to my home.
Oh and yes a fair number of Kings Pointers are union members, though I am not, however I still enjoy out of season produce from Chile at a reasonable price and many other things the inter-modal transportation industry, much of which is unionized enables. I also sleep better at night knowing the US Armed Forces are well equipped with great technology and the right kinds and amounts of stuff they need to do their jobs, all of which was obtained for them by Government Contracts under the same set of rules and procedures used here, etc.
My point is I'm a non-union, small Government loving conservative leaning populist who is a registered republican, but these hopefully tongue in cheek sound bites really are wrongfully based on over-simplifications rather then thinking about what it really takes to get something done that isn't all that simple.
1) none are civil engineers
2) none have been involved in anything more complex in this regard then perhaps getting a contractor to come out to their residence and install a patio...
3) none really know the hows, whats and why fors relative to "Government Contracting" requirements and/or standard terms and conditions for facilities and those applicable sections of the Federal Acquisition Requirements.
Suffice it to say I'm sure it's easy to sum up why the project isn't done to some degree because of all three reasons cited here, along with I'd hazard to guess the fact that the underlying infrastructure to which the contractor had to tie into for the thermal field probably wasn't entirely accurately documented since that's the sort of thing that used to happen when facilities were quickly built during and shortly after WWII...
I would only say I for one would be quite upset if the contractor tried to lay asphalt when the temperatures and weather conditions weren't warm enough and proper as if they did the asphalt installed would likely not last and the mess would only rapidly recur.
As far as why the contractor probably seems to be moving dirt from one place to another without purpose I'd guess it's because they are working in a confined area, one without a really adequate "lay-down" area that is big enough so they don't have to put things (i.e. material or what we lay people call "dirt") "here" and then move it "over there" so they can then work "here"...etc.
As for why they might be showing up with just a few guys and not seeming to make much progress that probably is a combination of the Government Contract that likely requires a continued good faith effort to make reasonable progress, Union Work Agreements that require the contractor to keep his preferred core team in his employ, and the general conditions that preclude them from physically trying to just put what would be the equivalent of nine woman in place to gestate a baby in a month...in other words something that would be impossible because to do the job right requires them to follow a logical sequence of operations and right now they have some real constraint precluding them from completing one or more key tasks in the critical path. Of course when the complexity of the whole job is nothing more than clearing away some sod, leveling an area so it has a modest pitch so it drains properly, compacting the soil and pouring a patio for example it's all pretty simple. Unfortunately installing a geothermal HVAC system and it's supporting infrastructure into a 40 year old building that's part of a campus of them, while a student body continues to use the facilities is probably a little more complex than anything I've had to do to my home.
Oh and yes a fair number of Kings Pointers are union members, though I am not, however I still enjoy out of season produce from Chile at a reasonable price and many other things the inter-modal transportation industry, much of which is unionized enables. I also sleep better at night knowing the US Armed Forces are well equipped with great technology and the right kinds and amounts of stuff they need to do their jobs, all of which was obtained for them by Government Contracts under the same set of rules and procedures used here, etc.
My point is I'm a non-union, small Government loving conservative leaning populist who is a registered republican, but these hopefully tongue in cheek sound bites really are wrongfully based on over-simplifications rather then thinking about what it really takes to get something done that isn't all that simple.
i heard that for some reason, they hit bedrock shallower than they had anticipated when drilling the holes, and that held up the project for awhile. no idea as to the validity, but i figured id spread that particular rumor around
The grinder progress
Thanks Jasperdog,
I appreciate the explanation because there is none on the KP web site. It seems like a major undertaking just to save some money on heating bills. I hope this geothermal system was worth the price and it saves the Academy lots of money. I am definitely not an engineer and wasn't comparing this to my driveways complexity. It just seems like this has been an endless project and now we have Winter weather to worry about. I grew up in NYC and watched 50 story buildings go up during the Winter and they seemed to go up on time. But, what the heck, hopefully it will be beautiful when it gets done.
Thanks Jasperdog,
I appreciate the explanation because there is none on the KP web site. It seems like a major undertaking just to save some money on heating bills. I hope this geothermal system was worth the price and it saves the Academy lots of money. I am definitely not an engineer and wasn't comparing this to my driveways complexity. It just seems like this has been an endless project and now we have Winter weather to worry about. I grew up in NYC and watched 50 story buildings go up during the Winter and they seemed to go up on time. But, what the heck, hopefully it will be beautiful when it gets done.
I do not purport to be an expert, but I am a former energy management consultant for an electric utility company. The geothermal system "gets its heat" from the ground generally, not necessarily bedrock. Indeed, hitting bedrock WOULD seriously impede progress - and raise the cost of installation - as opposed to being able to install the system in "dirt".
The geothermal system should seriously lower heating and cooling costs versus a conventional heat pump.
The geothermal system should seriously lower heating and cooling costs versus a conventional heat pump.
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nmlcfp: You definately didn't compare this or anything to making a driveway, I did as it seemed the best way to illustrate my core point that this effort is probably more complex then most of us casual observers initially think.
No worries Jasperdog
No worries Jasperdog, again, I appreciate the more detailed explanation. That is why I did this posting. I figured someone had to know why this project was taking so long. I think KP should do something on their web site showing the progress. I look forward to seeing the MIds lining up for lunch formation again, hopefully before 2012!
No worries Jasperdog, again, I appreciate the more detailed explanation. That is why I did this posting. I figured someone had to know why this project was taking so long. I think KP should do something on their web site showing the progress. I look forward to seeing the MIds lining up for lunch formation again, hopefully before 2012!
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I completely agree and it would be nice to have it done before our Mids Graduate.
Go Kings Point Wrestling beat Coast Guard tonight!!!:
Go Kings Point Wrestling beat Coast Guard tonight!!!:
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Or a few other words: Typical for the DOT funded USMMA.
Truly no disrespect to anyone or anything.....I am a fan of KP and the fantastic opportunity my child has because of it. However, KP has more than it's share of easy to identify needs that do not get addressed at the same course and speed as the other DOD funded service academies. Regardless of the complexity of the issue or project.
That is my perception based on a limited view of KP as a whole, and that view is shared by many. However, as a wise man taught me, perception does have a place at the reality table and should not be ignored.
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