Basics of Becoming a Pilot
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hornetguy
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We already covered this. Nice attempt to deflect, but, fail is the best word. 
Luigi59
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As if anyone doubted it.
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AMEN!
Your choice of major should revolve around only two things:
1) What do you like?
2) Assuming you had to go out and find a job in the world someday, what would you like to do?
In that order...
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Wow. When did THAT happen?
In my day, if you weren't in the top, oh, 20-25% of your class, you were screwed if you wanted aviation. Those slots went slower only than SEALs.
The only class with an exception was 1989, which got unlimited aviation slots for some reason.
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Yep. Guaranteed!
Of course it's the whole "get real rich" thing that gets in the way.
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Rommate was in 700s got pilot. I believe the bottom pilot from my class was just around 1000. Once you take out people who want to get out (winging + 8 years turns a lot of people away), Marines, Nuke-wannabe/draftee, the random with SWO as a top choice, medical disquals, etc., you're competing against a smaller portion of the class than you think. For our class, this was probably shifted a bit cause an abnormal number of people wanted to go SWO, but def. if you're in top 50% you can get pilot, and if you're anywhere you can get aviation (you put NFO first choice for whatever reason, they'll take you.)
Lots of people still do not get pilot who want it, but it's not as drastic as they make it sound.
Lots of people still do not get pilot who want it, but it's not as drastic as they make it sound.
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Wow. That's awesome.
Of course, not everyone in those top slots goes aviation, but MAN those slots would go fast. The first to go were SEALs, which lasted maybe in the top 20, then USMC aviation, which were usually gone in the top 100 or so. Aviation was usually gone by around 450-500.
Times change. I'm glad more guys have decent shots at their hopes. Service Selection Night is really depressing when you totally miss what you wanted for all those years. I know from experience.
Of course, not everyone in those top slots goes aviation, but MAN those slots would go fast. The first to go were SEALs, which lasted maybe in the top 20, then USMC aviation, which were usually gone in the top 100 or so. Aviation was usually gone by around 450-500.
Times change. I'm glad more guys have decent shots at their hopes. Service Selection Night is really depressing when you totally miss what you wanted for all those years. I know from experience.
Sorry. You have lost me. What part of my assessment do you feel is absurd?
Sure they are flight surgeons. But flight surgeons are, in fact, MDs. The point I was attempting to make is that on one of Pima's previous posts she seemed to confuse staff flight surgeons with Astronaut flight surgeons. There are currently 30 or so of the previous and have only been a handful of the latter throughout the whole program. Two entirely different animals.
Pima
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I was never confused. The 1st time I met a "staff" flight surgeon that also was NASA qualified was at Elmendorf, on Fridays they get the choice of what patch they want to wear he wore the NASA one. I was taken aback and he told me...he was the Flight Surgeon for NASA's back up landing site at White Sands, so whenever the shuttle went up he was sent to White Sands. The second flt doc that was also our "staff" flight doc was previously stationed at Edwards, and seeing as the shuttle lands there, along with our TPS, they must be NASA qualified. NASA has their own flight surgeons, but there are many more that are at military bases around the world. It is not feasible to have a full time flight doc assigned to White Sands when it has only been used 1x. It also makes sense to qualify the "Staff" flight docs at Edwards for NASA. It allows NASA to keep their permanent flight docs in TX and FLA. These guys want to eventually become a flight doc at TX or FLA, so this is how they come up the ladder to replace the 1st string.
NASA does not know when the shuttle takes off that it will not be diverted, so they place the flight docs in the 2 most common diverts, for the JIC scenario, the only 2 diverts that have been used are White Sands and Edwards. Thus, they always have "staff" flight docs that are qual'd for NASA waiting there. I think we can both agree, one part of their debrief is a flight physical.
BTW there are alot more than 30 flight surgeons, every AFB has at least 3 flight surgeons. SJAFB has 6, including the 1 that is NASA qualified.
NASA does not know when the shuttle takes off that it will not be diverted, so they place the flight docs in the 2 most common diverts, for the JIC scenario, the only 2 diverts that have been used are White Sands and Edwards. Thus, they always have "staff" flight docs that are qual'd for NASA waiting there. I think we can both agree, one part of their debrief is a flight physical.
BTW there are alot more than 30 flight surgeons, every AFB has at least 3 flight surgeons. SJAFB has 6, including the 1 that is NASA qualified.
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What you have just described are staff flight surgeons assigned specifically to NASA. There are 30some of them. Their job is to support the Astronauts. The two flight surgeons noted in the msnbc article I linked have been further selected to be Astronauts. They will no longer be NASA staff flight surgeons but will perform exclusively as Astronauts. I am not going back through the 300 or so bios, but, offhand I can only think of one AF and one Navy flight surgeon who have previously attained this achievement. Apples and oranges. Two completely different animals. Still confused?
The reason for my initial comment was simply to continue a line of posts between myself and SteveHolt that MDs were going to become more important as Astronauts in future space programs and pointing out that perhaps it was already commencing.
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Pima
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I 100% agree with you, that they are no longer flight surgeons. I do think we are speaking in circles. Kjell Lindgren an AFA grad, did not become a flight surgeon until 2006, and that was not at NASA per se as an Astronauts Flight surgeon, just like the 2 AF Flight surgeons, they decided to specialize on the AF dime to gain that "X", we have also had flight surgeons, that their specialties were OB, Ortho Surgeon and Cardiologist. There are also tons of flight surgeons who never apply for specialties, but if you look at the biography of Dr. Lindgren, you will see he was never a "flight surgeon" until he applied for NASA, before that he was optimizing the military to further his medical career. FYI I have no problem with that.
His reume
Not seeing any AFB here..are you? He had a plan and it included going up in space, but for 11 yrs it was not about being a flight doc, it was about getting up there. G Bless him and he should be used as a motivator on how you can do it.
Finally, maybe you should see that 2 posters saw you as saying that being an Astronaut MD meant FLIGHT DOC....there is a difference between being an ASTRONAUT with an MD and being the Astronaut MD. My BAD for reading into that it was the latter.
The MSNBC article states they are just selected and will go for 2 yrs of training, that means that it will be 17 yrs from commissioning before he goes into space. My main thrust was that it is a very long haul (remember my ripe old age of 32 yr old comment?). It is incredibly selective, and a long time before you will get there, I don't want any 18 yo thinking that they become the best pilot or doc and NASA will take them, and especially for them not to realize that to get there you have take be proactive and become the best of the best in whatever field, pilot or med.
Finally, for all cadets or candidates thinking about how to get on this track, I think Lindgren did an ecellent job in his interview
OOPS almost forgot to say the trend now for flight docs in the AF at least is to go Pilot Training and then go to med school, then back in as a flight doc
His reume
Not seeing any AFB here..are you? He had a plan and it included going up in space, but for 11 yrs it was not about being a flight doc, it was about getting up there. G Bless him and he should be used as a motivator on how you can do it.
Finally, maybe you should see that 2 posters saw you as saying that being an Astronaut MD meant FLIGHT DOC....there is a difference between being an ASTRONAUT with an MD and being the Astronaut MD. My BAD for reading into that it was the latter.
The MSNBC article states they are just selected and will go for 2 yrs of training, that means that it will be 17 yrs from commissioning before he goes into space. My main thrust was that it is a very long haul (remember my ripe old age of 32 yr old comment?). It is incredibly selective, and a long time before you will get there, I don't want any 18 yo thinking that they become the best pilot or doc and NASA will take them, and especially for them not to realize that to get there you have take be proactive and become the best of the best in whatever field, pilot or med.
Finally, for all cadets or candidates thinking about how to get on this track, I think Lindgren did an ecellent job in his interview
OOPS almost forgot to say the trend now for flight docs in the AF at least is to go Pilot Training and then go to med school, then back in as a flight doc
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I don't know about the AF but the Navy flight docs flight training only consists of API and what equates to about 1/3 of primary.
Pima
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Many of the flight docs now go UPT and then to Med, so they do the full up program(1 yr). They are winged like any other pilot. They then come back in and do the FTU (whatever aircraft they are going to). Most then spend 1 assignment as a flight doc and apply for specialty med.
AT least that is what our flight docs have told us. It is definetely more than 6 weeks. I do believe they don't go through the full up FTU, but the short course, since they will never be an AC. Bullet (my better half) could tell you for sure. I am just the wife who hangs with them at the club and yak about how did you do that? I also know Hornet knows for a fact how it works since he has been in direct contact with an AF flight surgeon for @18 mos (hornet isgoing to be a 10 grad) and this flight doc has assisted him on the path. Hornet originally was going to try Med and then flight, but this doc showed him even the AF regs of how to do it he is now going to go UPT and then Med.
I will say I bet that many of our flight docs do the same and never go UPT, but it seems like that the new comp edge to become a flight doc is to have your wings and go to med school there knowing you will come back as a a flt surgeon. We had 6 at SJAFB and 4 of them went first to UPT (Capt/Major) the other 2 (LtCol and COL) were Docs that went through what you call API, thus you can see that there has been a trend change.
AT least that is what our flight docs have told us. It is definetely more than 6 weeks. I do believe they don't go through the full up FTU, but the short course, since they will never be an AC. Bullet (my better half) could tell you for sure. I am just the wife who hangs with them at the club and yak about how did you do that? I also know Hornet knows for a fact how it works since he has been in direct contact with an AF flight surgeon for @18 mos (hornet isgoing to be a 10 grad) and this flight doc has assisted him on the path. Hornet originally was going to try Med and then flight, but this doc showed him even the AF regs of how to do it he is now going to go UPT and then Med.
I will say I bet that many of our flight docs do the same and never go UPT, but it seems like that the new comp edge to become a flight doc is to have your wings and go to med school there knowing you will come back as a a flt surgeon. We had 6 at SJAFB and 4 of them went first to UPT (Capt/Major) the other 2 (LtCol and COL) were Docs that went through what you call API, thus you can see that there has been a trend change.
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kp2001
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Flight doc training re AF vs Navy:
There are two types of flight surgeons in both services. There are those who are flight surgeons (like myself) and then there are those who are board certified in aerospace medicine (sometimes referred to as RAM's).
Basic Flight surgeon:
Navy: Complete medical school, complete internship, complete flight surgery course (6 wks API, 3 mos primary, 8 wks classroom), out to squadron.
Air Force: complete medical school, complete internship, complete flight surgery course (6 weeks all didactic, minimal flight time if at all), out to squadron.
Aerospace Medicine:
Navy/Air Force (basically same route): complete medical school, complete internship (possible pause here to go be regular flight surgeon), complete Residency in Aerospace Medicine (1st yr earn Masters, 2nd yr and possible 3rd year complete clinical coursework) out to squadron, carrier, etc.
In the Navy the current policy to be a RAM is that you must have another clinical specialty completed first like family medicine, internal medicine, ER, etc.
No flight surgeons will go from medical school to full flight school except for a very, very, select few who are known as pilot-physicians. In fact these are usually people who were prior pilots who then got out of the military to go to medical school and then came back in the military as physicians. The Navy has plenty of former pilots/nfo's as flight surgeons, there were actually three in my class alone.
There is minimal to no competition to becoming a flight surgeon. If you want it you will get it, especially in the Air Force.
There are two types of flight surgeons in both services. There are those who are flight surgeons (like myself) and then there are those who are board certified in aerospace medicine (sometimes referred to as RAM's).
Basic Flight surgeon:
Navy: Complete medical school, complete internship, complete flight surgery course (6 wks API, 3 mos primary, 8 wks classroom), out to squadron.
Air Force: complete medical school, complete internship, complete flight surgery course (6 weeks all didactic, minimal flight time if at all), out to squadron.
Aerospace Medicine:
Navy/Air Force (basically same route): complete medical school, complete internship (possible pause here to go be regular flight surgeon), complete Residency in Aerospace Medicine (1st yr earn Masters, 2nd yr and possible 3rd year complete clinical coursework) out to squadron, carrier, etc.
In the Navy the current policy to be a RAM is that you must have another clinical specialty completed first like family medicine, internal medicine, ER, etc.
No flight surgeons will go from medical school to full flight school except for a very, very, select few who are known as pilot-physicians. In fact these are usually people who were prior pilots who then got out of the military to go to medical school and then came back in the military as physicians. The Navy has plenty of former pilots/nfo's as flight surgeons, there were actually three in my class alone.
There is minimal to no competition to becoming a flight surgeon. If you want it you will get it, especially in the Air Force.
Docs and pilots are both valuable resources. To allow either to forego a commitment and train to be the other seems like both a waste of govt money and squandering of valuable assets. When trained aviators who have honored their commitment and gone to medical school on their own dime are willing to come back into the service as flight surgeons, it would not make economic sense for the govt to pay for the same result. And I am sure the new GI Bill will augment these ranks even more.
kp2001
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The new GI bill will have little to no impact on physician recruitment.
People who go to medical school on their own dime don't come back into the military with rare exception. There are very few physicians in the military who did not receive either the HPSP scholarship or attend USUHS. I would put it at around 5% or less. In my time in the service I have met three:
1) A cardiothoracic surgeon who was on the cover of Time magazine ( http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19841210,00.html ) who came into the Army as an O6.
2) An internal medicine physician who wanted to become an anesthesiologist so joined the Navy to do that residency.
3)A pain managment specialist who joined the Navy specifically to be a flight surgeon.
Pima
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MOMBEE,
It may be it may not be. To go Med, after UPT I am assuming that there is an additional committment. The flight doc now has a better understanding of what a pilots body goes through compared to the flight doc that never went through UPT. I.E. Hornet who plans the pilot route will now have a better understanding why flyers will live with an ear infection before they would see the doc, why they will reset their own broken fingers or toes, why not to be rude or disgusting would swallow their own vomit...all of those things means DNIF. The last could mean DQ and loss of wings. As a pilot who has that experience, maybe, just maybe they can see the smaller signs and make a difference before they become big glaring signs.
I am not sure if I agree or disagree with you, but what I do know is that flight docs were there for us in the very worse health issues that our family endured, that includes diagnosing our DS at 4 with ASD (arterial septeral defect-heart), calling us at the ER at 10 at night to see what he could do, after our CC called him to say Bullet's daughter was bit 3 x by a copperhead (her 5 day check up was at the base, and Doc B, had called the hospital while she was still there to have her records transferred). It included coming to my home when I got chicken pox at the age of 33 to give me meds. I have many more stories, but the point is if that is what it takes to have top rate docs, than I am all for it!
It may be it may not be. To go Med, after UPT I am assuming that there is an additional committment. The flight doc now has a better understanding of what a pilots body goes through compared to the flight doc that never went through UPT. I.E. Hornet who plans the pilot route will now have a better understanding why flyers will live with an ear infection before they would see the doc, why they will reset their own broken fingers or toes, why not to be rude or disgusting would swallow their own vomit...all of those things means DNIF. The last could mean DQ and loss of wings. As a pilot who has that experience, maybe, just maybe they can see the smaller signs and make a difference before they become big glaring signs.
I am not sure if I agree or disagree with you, but what I do know is that flight docs were there for us in the very worse health issues that our family endured, that includes diagnosing our DS at 4 with ASD (arterial septeral defect-heart), calling us at the ER at 10 at night to see what he could do, after our CC called him to say Bullet's daughter was bit 3 x by a copperhead (her 5 day check up was at the base, and Doc B, had called the hospital while she was still there to have her records transferred). It included coming to my home when I got chicken pox at the age of 33 to give me meds. I have many more stories, but the point is if that is what it takes to have top rate docs, than I am all for it!
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