Been a tough stretch
- Thread starter falconfamily
- Start date
I can’t believe what I am reading on Service Academy Forums of all places! Is minimizing the service of others who don’t serve in a combat zone really helping anyone? In my opinion all this does is make good people feel bad. Anyone who willingly takes an oath to serve knows they may give their life in service to their country. Even if some jobs are less risky than others it is still a possibility. To this day my husband who served during the Cold War feels like less of a soldier because he got out of the Army about a year before the Gulf War. I keep reminding him that he served honorably for seven years and that he wouldn’t have hesitated to go into combat if it had come to that during his service. He still feels he was not a “real” soldier. Some of the comments I have seen here just reinforces these feelings about service members who haven’t deployed. Are they “less than” because their service branch or job didn’t put them directly in harms way?
I do recognize the greater stress and sacrifices of service members who have served multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan versus those who haven’t but it is fair to make those who haven’t feel they don’t count? For example there is my nephew Mike. He has done three deployments to Iraq, was wounded more than once, and whose unit is set to deploy to Afghanistan later this year. I see what he, his wife, and his two little boys give up for our country. I also have a friend Mary who has served in the Air Force Reserves for 20 years; she is married and has children. She has not been shot at but she has been gone from her family for long periods of time as a loadmaster moving equipment and supplies to our troops all over the world, as well as several flights bringing the remains of service members killed overseas back to the US. Is Mary’s service any less valuable than Mike’s because she wasn’t “boots on the ground” in a combat zone?
My son is an infantry officer and will be in Afghanistan soon. He jokes about the other services and even other Army branches just being support for infantry, but if I ever heard him seriously put down or belittle someone else’s service to this country I would kick his butt!!
Others in this country may not being paying attention to what is going on in Afghanistan but I am. Every loss is terrible because every one of these lives matters. When I hear about the loss of a service member, no matter what branch or how they die, my heart hurts for the family and friends left behind. My prayers are that God be with the survivors to get them through this difficult time.
I do recognize the greater stress and sacrifices of service members who have served multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan versus those who haven’t but it is fair to make those who haven’t feel they don’t count? For example there is my nephew Mike. He has done three deployments to Iraq, was wounded more than once, and whose unit is set to deploy to Afghanistan later this year. I see what he, his wife, and his two little boys give up for our country. I also have a friend Mary who has served in the Air Force Reserves for 20 years; she is married and has children. She has not been shot at but she has been gone from her family for long periods of time as a loadmaster moving equipment and supplies to our troops all over the world, as well as several flights bringing the remains of service members killed overseas back to the US. Is Mary’s service any less valuable than Mike’s because she wasn’t “boots on the ground” in a combat zone?
My son is an infantry officer and will be in Afghanistan soon. He jokes about the other services and even other Army branches just being support for infantry, but if I ever heard him seriously put down or belittle someone else’s service to this country I would kick his butt!!
Others in this country may not being paying attention to what is going on in Afghanistan but I am. Every loss is terrible because every one of these lives matters. When I hear about the loss of a service member, no matter what branch or how they die, my heart hurts for the family and friends left behind. My prayers are that God be with the survivors to get them through this difficult time.
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2007
- Messages
- 9,295
If it makes you feel any better, he would likely be bloodied before you got to him.
When joking turns serious, service members tend to drop the gloves. Bruno rattling off the ignorant statements he made.... say in a dive bar in some dirty port with Coasties around would have at first gotten some "now wait a second..." followed by a minimal force nessassary to compel compliance... and I think you know what that means.
I've never seen anyone rattle something like that off unless they had serious numbers. If they're the minority, they sit there with their tails between their legs.
Oh, but have I heard some interesting, but not SAF appropriate, come backs. Usually laced with fine examples of profanity.
NorwichDad
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2010
- Messages
- 1,352
Amen to this. Agree Completely
scoutpilot
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,479
True, that wasn't my point. The juxtaposition of terms probably made it seem that way, though.
There are a lot of AFSOC guys doing some great work on the ground, exercising the breadth of their skill sets. And while the Pave Squawkers (that is a JOKE
) have done some good work, they represent about .05% of the aircrew population. So when we're describing a war in real terms, there are distinctions to be made.Is it important to recognize service? Of course. Is it important to recognize the dangers and sacrifices some people endure vice their counterparts? I think so. If not, then we should really rethink some of our awards like the Silver Star and MOH, if we want to truly hold that the nature of one's service is irrelevant.
The kid who drives the bus at Ramstein is a fine American serving his country. So is the Navy SEAL who smothered Bin Laden's wife thinking she was wearing a bomb. They're different, though, and we should not be afraid to recognize that.
Bullet
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2008
- Messages
- 986
Nice try in trying to back-pedal that it was indeed YOU who has a poor understanding of this country's military and this fight. Just fees up you messed up, or does that somehow hurt your "special" standing on here?
There are a lot of AFSOC guys doing some great work on the ground, exercising the breadth of their skill sets. And while the Pave Squawkers (that is a JOKE
Is it important to recognize service? Of course. Is it important to recognize the dangers and sacrifices some people endure vice their counterparts? I think so. If not, then we should really rethink some of our awards like the Silver Star and MOH, if we want to truly hold that the nature of one's service is irrelevant.
The kid who drives the bus at Ramstein is a fine American serving his country. So is the Navy SEAL who smothered Bin Laden's wife thinking she was wearing a bomb. They're different, though, and we should not be afraid to recognize that.
Blah, blah, blah, blah. Again, nice try to back-pedal.
Face it, you tried to be a little too cocky and over-parachiol in your never-ending quest to make it seem like those not as involved in the pointy end of the current fight don't matter, or are deserving of less respect for their service.
While I do whole-heartedly agree that we SHOULD recognize that the contributions of our special forces (and please, let's not get into a further pissy match over THAT term) and ground units at the front lines of today's fight are worthy of more praise and recognition than that proverbial "kid driving the bus". However, most special operators I knew/know recognize that without regular support, they can't get the job done. Give the SEALs and TF guys all the praise they deserve, but don't spit on the kid driving that bus just because he's not pulling a trigger. He may be the one driving that truck to that FOP one day, risking HIS life to get those SAF guys beans and bullets.
But let's also recognize that TODAY's fight is not the same as YESTERDAY's fight or will be the same as TOMORROW's. Let's only hope we face an enemy next time with the same air defense capability as the Taliban (looks like our most likley scenarios, Syria or Iran, will NOT be that case). TODAY's fight IS important, certainly. But where was TF160 when bullets were flying over Bosnia? And will they also be there in Bejing / Tehran / and a few other not so easy to reach places with not so easy to get to defenses?
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2008
- Messages
- 3,061
Absolutely - that is the point. Recognizing that right now there are people- (of all branches apparently though I can't imagine what a Coast Guardsman is doing on the ground in Afghanistan ) in harms way- not theoretically dangerous situations, or away from home but actually in frequent or even daily contact with an armed enemy on a battlefield. We are in a War and it's a war that the general population and apparently even some people on here don't understand the difference between the daily discomfort and stress of a nonwartime mission compared to the stresses and sacrifices of those who are actually putting themselves at risk every day. The fact that folks even on here don't truly understand what is happening seems rather remarkable and dispiriting. Saying that there is a significant difference doesn't mean that Navy sailors underway, or the Coast Guardman in the Marine Inspection office in New Orleans, the Airman at Hickam, the Soldier at Ft Leavenworth or the Marine at 8th & I are not all performing important and often complex and possibly dangerous jobs that contribute to the security of the country. But they are not fighting the war. The point is that we are at war and yet very few people - apparently even on this forum recognize as much. It rather appears that to many, Afghanistan and the sacrifices that a portion of the military are being called upon to make is just more background noise to what goes on in DC. 7 personnel were killed in this helicopter- including 3 Navy Seals plus Aircrew (not sure if this was an AF or Army Helicopter & I don't know their branch )- those are the people fighting the war along with their bretheren on the ground. As Scoutpilot points out- there is a reason why there is a Bronze Star with V device and it is of higher presidence than the Bronze Star for Meriorious Service in a war zone which is in turn of higher presidence than the Meritorious Service Medal given for the same level of performance as the BSM but performed outside the war zone.
Still don't like that way of thinking? Remember when their was a kerfluffle about giving medals and credit for combat zone time to UAV operators working out of Nevada? Did that seem right to many people? Maybe an important job- but that's hardly the same as putting on your gear and heading out thru the wire like their combat controller brethern in Afghanistan and it's not seen the same.
All military members deserve to be recognized for their service to the country, but the ones who- today- we really need to be remembering, praying for, and pondering their service and what we are asking of them - are the ones fighting this 10 year old shooting war. Sorry if you don't like that interpretation. I'll bet however that among the active duty and retired military population there aren't too many who don't understand that.
Last edited:
Bullet
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2008
- Messages
- 986
I'm even more truly amazed at how you've taken a thread that should be about hhonoring our fallen and turned it into a petty and silly arguement on who deserves more hero-worship for they amount the contribute to the fight.
Amazed, but not surprised.
And my apologies to everyone else for contributing to that petty arguement, and hope that it can return, rigthfully, to about honoring the fallen.
Amazed, but not surprised.
And my apologies to everyone else for contributing to that petty arguement, and hope that it can return, rigthfully, to about honoring the fallen.
scoutpilot
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,479
Dude, if you really think you know how this place works, I'm sure you can find your way over. Otherwise, just let it go. It's only good for a laugh at this point.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2008
- Messages
- 3,061
You are right- let's let it go.
scoutpilot
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,479
Ah, right, now that you've done your best to pee on some legs, suddenly it's "my gosh how far this thread has fallen thanks to some others! We must take the high road!"
The aircraft was an Army UH-60 supporting SOF operations. We know the unit but I will certainly make no remarks as to which until DA releases a statement, thus ensuring all kin have been properly notified.
Last edited:
Bullet
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2008
- Messages
- 986
Son, I never said I know how that place works, and frankly, I've already done my time getting shot at in places the US Army wasn't near.
I DID say that you made it a point to state that no AF aircrew were involved, which demonstrates that YOU don't know how it works.
As to the peeing on legs part; who unzipped first?
I agree that there are differences and that the nature of one’s service is not irrelevant. My problem is with the superior attitude of some who think “I am more of a patriot because I do (fill in the blank).”
My thanks to that SEAL and that bus driver because they both CHOSE to serve when they don’t have to (unlike the majority in this country).
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2007
- Messages
- 9,295
Well we've already established your knowledge in this area is lacking. I wouldn't expect your "imagination" to be "up" on the subject.
Just saying.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2008
- Messages
- 3,061
Ok- let's put it to rest now. The purpose of my post was to highlight that there are a lot of Military personnel who are actually underfire today and those are the people that I am keeping in my thoughts and prayers. I am always happy to buy a beer for for any service member of any branch and they all do a job that needs to be done, but right now the people who are directly in harms way in Afghanistan are the people who I think need to be especially remembered privately and publicly. You are of course all free to see things differently.
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2007
- Messages
- 9,295
To Bruno's other point.
You have a base full of soldiers in TX. There are over 10,000 more soldiers assigned to that base than there are total service members in the Coast Guard.
It would seem the Army has plenty of "support".
As half a million Army soldiers sat fat and happy in 2000, Coasties were out doing something. I don't remember too many fingers pointed at those fat, happy soldiers.
I'm at sea, with 70 of my closest shipmates dealing with 200 rioting Cubans. Nothing you'll see on the news, or hear praised anywhere. They had the nerve to swing objects harder than nerf swords. I don't remember a single person... stopping and saying "wonder how that 1000 Marine unit in southern CA is doing right now, camping in the desert of California.
Decades of SEALs and SF saw no combat. But we hold them up as the example?
It's far easier to cast stones from a computer screen. Being a veteran or a retired member makes it even easier.
"Oh yeah, well I was shot at!!!"
Uh huh, and did you hike there to get shot at or did someone else send you there? Exactly.
Some people go. Some people don't. Some people get shot. Some people don't. The same CG blue blood running through Douglas Munro in the Pacific in the 1940s ran through Nathaniel Bruckenthal in the North Arabian Gulf in the early 2000s. The same CG blue blood that ran through Richard Patterson on the Vietnam coast ran through Adam Bryant as his plane crashed off of the CA coast during a SAR case in 2009. My best friends had that same blue blood and so did I.
Some are sent, and some aren't. All are willing.
If Bruno doesn't know that now, a simple comment thread won't fix that.
You have a base full of soldiers in TX. There are over 10,000 more soldiers assigned to that base than there are total service members in the Coast Guard.
It would seem the Army has plenty of "support".
As half a million Army soldiers sat fat and happy in 2000, Coasties were out doing something. I don't remember too many fingers pointed at those fat, happy soldiers.
I'm at sea, with 70 of my closest shipmates dealing with 200 rioting Cubans. Nothing you'll see on the news, or hear praised anywhere. They had the nerve to swing objects harder than nerf swords. I don't remember a single person... stopping and saying "wonder how that 1000 Marine unit in southern CA is doing right now, camping in the desert of California.
Decades of SEALs and SF saw no combat. But we hold them up as the example?
It's far easier to cast stones from a computer screen. Being a veteran or a retired member makes it even easier.
"Oh yeah, well I was shot at!!!"
Uh huh, and did you hike there to get shot at or did someone else send you there? Exactly.
Some people go. Some people don't. Some people get shot. Some people don't. The same CG blue blood running through Douglas Munro in the Pacific in the 1940s ran through Nathaniel Bruckenthal in the North Arabian Gulf in the early 2000s. The same CG blue blood that ran through Richard Patterson on the Vietnam coast ran through Adam Bryant as his plane crashed off of the CA coast during a SAR case in 2009. My best friends had that same blue blood and so did I.
Some are sent, and some aren't. All are willing.
If Bruno doesn't know that now, a simple comment thread won't fix that.
Last edited:
scoutpilot
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,479
Well see, Pops, you sorta did. Tell me, from your knowledge, where can MEDEVAC not go? What units have ALOs on the ground at the tactical level? I mean, you quoted it as fact, so you must know. Right?
I'm sure you got your war hero time in your day. Was that the question?
Would you have an Asterisk placed next to the name of the 4 Kiowa pilots killed during a training accident at Ft. Lewis, a Coast Guard Helicopter crew killed while training in the Gulf, or a ANG C-130 that crashed while helping to fight fires, all of these happened within the last year. I am pretty confident that nobody was shooting at these people during any of these incidents, and they all happened in the safety of the United States. Serving in the Military can be a nasty and dangerous business no matter if you are deployed or not.
This conversation borders on ludicrous.
As far as the Coast Guard goes....During Peace Time the Army, Navy, Marines, and Airforce train for what might happen, the Coast Guard continues to do what it has trained to do. Sorry to add the last part but as an old Coastie I had to get my 2 cents in even though I have one son in the Army and another in AROTC.
To the pilots and those on board the Blackhawk, may you Rest in Peace.
falconfamily
5-Year Member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2011
- Messages
- 670
I have worked with every branch of the service (Yes - even the Coast Guard, they would provide boats and facilities to use when we did SCUBA Re-Qualification and they were great people to work with). At the end of the day we all bleed red and we serve the same flag. I was hoping to direct our thoughts to those who are serving overseas right now, it's a dangerous mission to disengage and transfer responsibilities for security when the conditions on the ground are as uncertain as they are. This discussion should be about those who are serving now and those who we just lost. Just my two cents.
scoutpilot
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,479
I think you know that's not at all what Bruno was saying. We can all agree or disagree about who deserves the bigger pat on the back.
Right now, though, some parent's kid is humping up a goat trail in the dark, with the very real and all to frequent possibility that an IED or modified mine may rip apart his body. The same body his mother held and washed and hugged. That man deserves our thoughts, prayers, and concern. He's not the only one, but he is increasingly being forgotten. That's what Bruno was saying.