Being Female
- Thread starter KiwiBird
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There are plenty of old threads on this. Suggest you use the search function while waiting for some of our esteemed ladies to chime in.
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If you are strong, smart, confident, have a sense of humor and a thick skin, and know how to stand up for yourself, you’ll be fine. Do you know any jerk guys (or girls) in your HS? Do you handle them okay? Ignore them or stand your ground and know how to not be a doormat or how to create boundaries?
In the military, here’s what counts and shuts up the jerks (there are those in every profession, walk of life, and yes, family):
- Performance, performance, performance
- Doing your best
- Pulling your share of the load, not looking for any breaks
- Being a good teammate, classmate, roommate, company mate, shipmate, wingman, battle buddy, looking out for others before you look to your own comfort
- A desire to become a servant leader, but also importantly, demonstrating the ability to respect and care for those entrusted to you
- And, performance, performance, performance
I spent 26 years on active duty in the Navy. I was often the first woman ever assigned to certain jobs or duty stations. Best thing that could ever happen to me. I loathed being called a female officer or being treated differently. Yes, some stupid stuff happened, and still does happen (in and out of military service), but it was vastly outweighed by the reward of serving in the Navy with outstanding enlisted personnel, awesome senior officers, wonderful peers, all over the world. It was the making of me. I found backbone I never knew I had, and thrived. I would go back and do every bit of it again, even the absolute worst, messy, painful, scary, awful bits, without pay.
The lessons I learned and the friends I made are priceless. It is the greatest honor of my life to say I served in the Navy, and am now a member of the great family of brother and sister vets from all services and ranks, sharing a special bond.
No matter the service, you will figure out what battles to fight, and what battles to walk away from. There are far more protections in military service for sexual harassment type complaints than there are in the civilian world, in my opinion. You will be mentored by incredible women and men, and learn lifetime skills, whether you stay for your minimum obligation or a full career.
If the Navy calls to you, listen. All the services have their cultures and identities. Look past the commissioning program to what you might do as an officer and see what looks appealing. The SA or ROTC are 4-year way stations. Focus on the years of obligated service. The Navy operates above the water, on the water, under the water, around the water, all around the world, far from home and the sight of land for months at a time. Of course, that is not all the time, but that is not everyone’s cup of tea.
If you’d like this view, one of the great delights of a sea service, which punctuates the hard days and nights at sea, close your eyes and smell the salt on the wind and hear the sea’s susurration alongside.
In the military, here’s what counts and shuts up the jerks (there are those in every profession, walk of life, and yes, family):
- Performance, performance, performance
- Doing your best
- Pulling your share of the load, not looking for any breaks
- Being a good teammate, classmate, roommate, company mate, shipmate, wingman, battle buddy, looking out for others before you look to your own comfort
- A desire to become a servant leader, but also importantly, demonstrating the ability to respect and care for those entrusted to you
- And, performance, performance, performance
I spent 26 years on active duty in the Navy. I was often the first woman ever assigned to certain jobs or duty stations. Best thing that could ever happen to me. I loathed being called a female officer or being treated differently. Yes, some stupid stuff happened, and still does happen (in and out of military service), but it was vastly outweighed by the reward of serving in the Navy with outstanding enlisted personnel, awesome senior officers, wonderful peers, all over the world. It was the making of me. I found backbone I never knew I had, and thrived. I would go back and do every bit of it again, even the absolute worst, messy, painful, scary, awful bits, without pay.
The lessons I learned and the friends I made are priceless. It is the greatest honor of my life to say I served in the Navy, and am now a member of the great family of brother and sister vets from all services and ranks, sharing a special bond.
No matter the service, you will figure out what battles to fight, and what battles to walk away from. There are far more protections in military service for sexual harassment type complaints than there are in the civilian world, in my opinion. You will be mentored by incredible women and men, and learn lifetime skills, whether you stay for your minimum obligation or a full career.
If the Navy calls to you, listen. All the services have their cultures and identities. Look past the commissioning program to what you might do as an officer and see what looks appealing. The SA or ROTC are 4-year way stations. Focus on the years of obligated service. The Navy operates above the water, on the water, under the water, around the water, all around the world, far from home and the sight of land for months at a time. Of course, that is not all the time, but that is not everyone’s cup of tea.
If you’d like this view, one of the great delights of a sea service, which punctuates the hard days and nights at sea, close your eyes and smell the salt on the wind and hear the sea’s susurration alongside.
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Will speak on behalf of DD, who’s a 2/C midshipman. Not once have I heard her mention any discomfort, awkwardness, harassment or untoward behavior among her male shipmates. It’s a man’s world, for sure. The numbers —72% male — will do that for a culture. As will a profession that’s historically been dominated by men. But she loves USNA and truly believes it’s where she belongs — it’s her tribe.
Which is not to say that bad behavior doesn’t happen among men and women. It clearly does, as the record shows. But I’d say DD feels far less threatened and far more respected amid the 72% than she probably would among 50% at other institutions. (Knock on wood, as I’m just a bit superstitious.)
As @Capt MJ says, do your job, respect others, pull your weight, be a good shipmate and everything will be just fine. Actually, better than fine. As a protective dad who’s quite close to his daughter, I wouldn’t want her to be anywhere else.
Which is not to say that bad behavior doesn’t happen among men and women. It clearly does, as the record shows. But I’d say DD feels far less threatened and far more respected amid the 72% than she probably would among 50% at other institutions. (Knock on wood, as I’m just a bit superstitious.)
As @Capt MJ says, do your job, respect others, pull your weight, be a good shipmate and everything will be just fine. Actually, better than fine. As a protective dad who’s quite close to his daughter, I wouldn’t want her to be anywhere else.
Old Navy BGO
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I am going to venture a little outside of my comfort zone here, because I've never been good at this topic. I served in a different time, when the the Navy was still largely a man's world. Some of the regulars here, including CAPT MJ and USNA 1985 were the pathfinders, opening doors and leading the way to what is now a fully integrated Navy... I can only think of one service selection which is restricted to Men ....Special Warfare, now.
In my day, mid 80s-90s, my community (MPA /P3s) was one of the first operational communities to fully accept women, and I think for the most part the women were treated as equals. It was harder for the female officers , with a wardroom of over 60 men (all Aviator with the expected egos and attitudes) , and perhaps 2 women (our Intell Officer and a Maintenance Duty Officer), but within the enlisted ranks, people were judged by their work. For much of my squadron tour, I was a Maintenance Division officer , responsible for about 60-70 men and women, and often said that women were among the best and worst sailors I had (and said the same thing about the guys! ). To be honest, with a couple notable exception, the women were often better !
I am not qualified to give advice from the perspective of a woman who has been there, done that -- I will leave that to the likes of CAPT MJ, my classmate USNA 1985, and Navy Hoops, but will second CAPT MJ's comments -which apply to all Naval Officers, male and female. However, at the risk of sounding sexist, I will add one comment -- you can do all that , without foregoing femininity. You don't have to try to be "one of the guys" to be an effective leader..
In my day, mid 80s-90s, my community (MPA /P3s) was one of the first operational communities to fully accept women, and I think for the most part the women were treated as equals. It was harder for the female officers , with a wardroom of over 60 men (all Aviator with the expected egos and attitudes) , and perhaps 2 women (our Intell Officer and a Maintenance Duty Officer), but within the enlisted ranks, people were judged by their work. For much of my squadron tour, I was a Maintenance Division officer , responsible for about 60-70 men and women, and often said that women were among the best and worst sailors I had (and said the same thing about the guys! ). To be honest, with a couple notable exception, the women were often better !
I am not qualified to give advice from the perspective of a woman who has been there, done that -- I will leave that to the likes of CAPT MJ, my classmate USNA 1985, and Navy Hoops, but will second CAPT MJ's comments -which apply to all Naval Officers, male and female. However, at the risk of sounding sexist, I will add one comment -- you can do all that , without foregoing femininity. You don't have to try to be "one of the guys" to be an effective leader..
USNAhopeful2025
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love this so much and will have my daughter read! thank you for sharing this!!!
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I’m retired now so the USN is a much better branch for all concerned.
usna1985
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I was at USNA when women made up only 8% of the Brigade and attrition for women was 30-35% of each class. For more than two years, I was the only female officer in my squadron of 65 officers. Many, many times, I was the only woman in a classroom, in a room, in a unit. There were no senior female officers to whom to look as role models -- the most senior woman in my day in my field was an O-4 (LCDR).
Was it easy? Of course not. But what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
Seriously, my time at USNA and in the USN prepared me for the corporate world and for life in ways I'd never imagined. Years later, when I walked into a room of 20 men working on a project, I noticed that I was the only woman, but it didn't bother me in the least -- I led the group b/c that's what I'd been trained to do.
Keep in mind that, despite what people try to tell you, the working world is still male-dominated, especially at higher levels. Learning to work for men, work with men, and learning to lead men (as well as women) are invaluable skills. And, in large part due to deployments, you learn those skills in the USN in a way you won't anywhere else.
Today, the opportunities for women in the USN are incredible. Women can now go into any career field, including SEALS (though none has yet done it). Many women have commanded ships and squadrons. Women have risen to the highest ranks (4-star Admiral). Your chances of achieving the highest levels of success are almost certainly greater in the military than they are in the civilian world. And, you will ALWAYS be paid the same as your male counterparts.
The above said, the military is (and likely always will be) a male-dominated organization. You have to find a comfort level with that. I think the most successful women find a way to thrive in a man's environment while still maintaining their "femininity" (or whatever you want to call what makes you inherently female).
A female relative recently graduated from USNA and is now a junior officer. Her experience was totally different (in a good way) than mine. Women now make up ~30% of the Brigade and an increasing percentage of officers. There is much greater equality and acceptance and opportunity than 35+ years ago. What other job allows a 24-year-old to drive a ship or submarine or to fly a combat mission? What other job puts a 22-year-old in charge of anywhere from 5 to 20 men and women (most of whom are older than you and more experienced than you)?
Is it for you? You need to be mentally tough. You need to expect to be treated equally (not more leniently). You need to be willing to push yourself on the physical challenges. You need to appreciate that the military isn't going to accommodate you -- you need to adjust to a military lifestyle. If you're all in, you can't ask for a great path to success, with a lot of fun along the way.
Was it easy? Of course not. But what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
Seriously, my time at USNA and in the USN prepared me for the corporate world and for life in ways I'd never imagined. Years later, when I walked into a room of 20 men working on a project, I noticed that I was the only woman, but it didn't bother me in the least -- I led the group b/c that's what I'd been trained to do. Keep in mind that, despite what people try to tell you, the working world is still male-dominated, especially at higher levels. Learning to work for men, work with men, and learning to lead men (as well as women) are invaluable skills. And, in large part due to deployments, you learn those skills in the USN in a way you won't anywhere else.
Today, the opportunities for women in the USN are incredible. Women can now go into any career field, including SEALS (though none has yet done it). Many women have commanded ships and squadrons. Women have risen to the highest ranks (4-star Admiral). Your chances of achieving the highest levels of success are almost certainly greater in the military than they are in the civilian world. And, you will ALWAYS be paid the same as your male counterparts.
The above said, the military is (and likely always will be) a male-dominated organization. You have to find a comfort level with that. I think the most successful women find a way to thrive in a man's environment while still maintaining their "femininity" (or whatever you want to call what makes you inherently female).
A female relative recently graduated from USNA and is now a junior officer. Her experience was totally different (in a good way) than mine. Women now make up ~30% of the Brigade and an increasing percentage of officers. There is much greater equality and acceptance and opportunity than 35+ years ago. What other job allows a 24-year-old to drive a ship or submarine or to fly a combat mission? What other job puts a 22-year-old in charge of anywhere from 5 to 20 men and women (most of whom are older than you and more experienced than you)?
Is it for you? You need to be mentally tough. You need to expect to be treated equally (not more leniently). You need to be willing to push yourself on the physical challenges. You need to appreciate that the military isn't going to accommodate you -- you need to adjust to a military lifestyle. If you're all in, you can't ask for a great path to success, with a lot of fun along the way.
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^^^ BRILLIANT ^^^
Re the aspect of femininity: This is a surface observation — as there’s a lot more to femininity than just cosmetics — but I’m mentioning it in light of @usna1985 awesome post.
In high school, DD rarely wore makeup. I can count proms and homecoming dances and that’s about it. During plebe summer, the photos we saw showed her as a hot mess — sweaty, grimy, tired, grim. We’ve seen photos of her during Sea Trials — caked in mud and dripping dirty water, or running in camo and combat boots over Naval Academy Bridge. We’ve seen photos of her taking the PRT (sweaty and gassed), aboard ship on her youngster cruise (donning work boots and industrial coveralls), overseeing PEP as a plebe summer detailers (exhausted yet energetic), traveling to an away game with her club-sport team (in warmup gear). On regular school days, she wears barely any makeup, if at all.
(By the way: A common complaint among females is that many of the uniforms were designed for men — not the most flattering or comfortable things they’ll ever wear. And yet they wear it with such pride, dignity, maturity and, dare I say, swagger.)
Back to (cosmetic, surface) femininity. Couple weeks ago, DD went through the 2-for-7 signing ceremony. She looked stunning: summer whites, skirt, heels, and yes, makeup (the most I’ve seen on her since senior prom).
No lack of femininity there! She and her female company mates all looked beautiful, and yet heaven help any idiotic men who decide to hassle them around town.
Want to see an example of a feminine yet effective officer? Check out Lt. Hall, a USNA grad and recruiter, on Instagram.
Re the aspect of femininity: This is a surface observation — as there’s a lot more to femininity than just cosmetics — but I’m mentioning it in light of @usna1985 awesome post.
In high school, DD rarely wore makeup. I can count proms and homecoming dances and that’s about it. During plebe summer, the photos we saw showed her as a hot mess — sweaty, grimy, tired, grim. We’ve seen photos of her during Sea Trials — caked in mud and dripping dirty water, or running in camo and combat boots over Naval Academy Bridge. We’ve seen photos of her taking the PRT (sweaty and gassed), aboard ship on her youngster cruise (donning work boots and industrial coveralls), overseeing PEP as a plebe summer detailers (exhausted yet energetic), traveling to an away game with her club-sport team (in warmup gear). On regular school days, she wears barely any makeup, if at all.
(By the way: A common complaint among females is that many of the uniforms were designed for men — not the most flattering or comfortable things they’ll ever wear. And yet they wear it with such pride, dignity, maturity and, dare I say, swagger.)
Back to (cosmetic, surface) femininity. Couple weeks ago, DD went through the 2-for-7 signing ceremony. She looked stunning: summer whites, skirt, heels, and yes, makeup (the most I’ve seen on her since senior prom).
No lack of femininity there! She and her female company mates all looked beautiful, and yet heaven help any idiotic men who decide to hassle them around town.
Want to see an example of a feminine yet effective officer? Check out Lt. Hall, a USNA grad and recruiter, on Instagram.
I think what he meant about feminity is that women shouldnt hide that side of themselves however they define feminity. So if their definition is cosmetics great, if it mean having a fresh clean face that is great also. You dont have to act like a guy to be respected.
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A very astute and attentive SAF regular called me on this: "Feminine" and "effective" should not be -- in fact, are not -- at odds with each other, as I implied above. That was a big miss on my part, and definitely unintended. I should have written, "Want to see an example of a feminine and effective officer?" Someday, I hope that question will refer to DD.
usna1985
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I should clarify what I mean by retaining one's femininity. In a nutshell, don't try to be "one of the guys." Be "one of the team."
In our day, we often wore men's uniforms. Our WUB "D" shirts were the guys' shirts -- same exact ones they wore. Very tight in the hips, no space in the chest, and buttons on the wrong side. We wore men's ties with our WUB "A" uniforms for the first three years that I was there. White works were unisex -- to get them big enough to fit over your hips, the waist was HUGE and they were super long. It was worse for the earlier classes of women.
In our day, we often wore men's uniforms. Our WUB "D" shirts were the guys' shirts -- same exact ones they wore. Very tight in the hips, no space in the chest, and buttons on the wrong side. We wore men's ties with our WUB "A" uniforms for the first three years that I was there. White works were unisex -- to get them big enough to fit over your hips, the waist was HUGE and they were super long. It was worse for the earlier classes of women.
ThankYouToAllWhoServe
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Thank you..your advice has always been so helpful and appreciate your valuable perspective.
I am not sure white works have changed much. Then again I don’t think they wear them except Plebe Summer anymore.
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This!
FWIW: The Log (midshipman monthly magazine that has come and gone over the years) had a story in the mid 70's that a tourista (older female tourist of the day) who was visiting the yard one day asked a passing mid "Why are a few of you wearing different color uniforms" and the reply was "The ones wearing white are the virgins".
I can not attest to the degree of fact in that story.
pilot2b
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I may catch some flak for this, but coming from a male perspective, here's the most important thing - don't overthink the fact that you're likely outnumbered in terms of male/female ratios and don't think of yourself as some kind of trailblazer. There are now 40 years of female grads from service academies.
Most male mids/officers don't bat an eye at females in the service. You will raise hackles though if you come off as trying to fight every feminist fight out there. From personal experience, I could tell you the bad cases of female officers who appear to care more about appearing to be a trailblazing icon than being focused on their actual jobs as a Navy/Marine Corps officer, whose role it is ultimately to wage war.
If you focus on your job and fitting into the "good dude/dudette" role of someone who is competent and cares about your peers, you'll be just fine.
Most male mids/officers don't bat an eye at females in the service. You will raise hackles though if you come off as trying to fight every feminist fight out there. From personal experience, I could tell you the bad cases of female officers who appear to care more about appearing to be a trailblazing icon than being focused on their actual jobs as a Navy/Marine Corps officer, whose role it is ultimately to wage war.
If you focus on your job and fitting into the "good dude/dudette" role of someone who is competent and cares about your peers, you'll be just fine.
WT Door
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No flak intended here. But from your male perspective, could you tell of the bad cases of male officers “who appear to care more about appearing to be a trailblazing icon than being focused on their actual jobs as a Navy/Marine Corps officer”? Today, I think the rub comes when some are quick to assign a particular discriminator or idea to a gender or group. My experience in three squadron tours with women was that none thought of themselves as trailblazers, although in many ways, they were. They, and rightfully so, just wanted to be treated fairly and be judged by their performance in the cockpit and in their ground job. That sentiment wasn’t any different from their male counterparts nor should it have been. And you're right, they did just fine. Even back then.
ProudDad17
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DS is NROTC, so I don't have any reference to USNA and he hasn't hit the fleet yet, but my experience has been that when he talks about his shipmates and unit staff and their good qualities and bad, gender never comes up; it is about their performance. He is very impressed by his MOI, who he describes as a badass. The only way I knew the MOI was female was by looking up her profile on their web page. Same with the battalion CO last year. I never knew she was female from talking with him. I found out watching the virtual graduation with him. This is the way it should be.
