Being gay in USAFA

unkown1961 said:
Old men have trouble with the change form younger generations.
Source: 55 years on the planet and 3 grown or almost kids

BlahuKahuna - well written post, and good points I hadn't considered.
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I'd add one more layer to your accurate correlation; WHITE old men have even more trouble changing in comparison to younger generations.

Source: White male. 52 years on the planet. But I'm making progress as I am becoming more open minded. :)
 
MN-Dad-2016 said:
I'd add one more layer to your accurate correlation; WHITE old men have even more trouble changing in comparison to younger generations.

Source: White male. 52 years on the planet. But I'm making progress as I am becoming more open I'd like to apologize for being white, old, and straight.
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I'd like to apologize for being white, old, and straight. Hard to fit in with those qualifications today.
 
Maplerock, you forgot to add "intolerant" since with your disqualifications you mention, you obviously are a bigot too.

(JUST KIDDING, YOU OF NO HUMOR SENSE.)
 
You'd definitely have a harder time as a gay male, some people get irrationally uncomfortable with gay men. As a gay female, I doubt anybody cares. But the trick is to not discuss it, why draw attention to yourself? I mean, what do you get out of informing all of your peers that you are a homosexual?
 
Maplerock said:
I'd like to apologize for being white, old, and straight. Hard to fit in with those qualifications today.
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No need to apologize. I'm also white, old, and straight. :) That said, I am not going to call BlahuKahuna a "kid" nor am I am going to assume my viewpoint is correct simply because I roamed the planet longer. That's not to say that experience isn't valuable. It is. But experience isn't the trump card (pun not intended).
 
Sorry if it appears I am making light of the topic, but when I first entered the military, I didn't talk to others of who I was dating or sleeping with. When I got married, it was close to a year before most I worked with even knew I got married.

Being gay will only become an issue, if YOU make it an issue. And with today's law allowing most any type of a relationship, I don't understand why there's even questions about it.

And it's not about flaunting it or not. It's about living your life. Any topic you bring up with be met with opinions. Talk religion or politics and you'll get into differences of opinions. You are in complete control over whether being gay, straight, republican, democrat, Christian, or atheist will become an issue or not.
 
Christcorp said:
Being gay will only become an issue, if YOU make it an issue. And with today's law allowing most any type of a relationship, I don't understand why there's even questions about it.

And it's not about flaunting it or not. It's about living your life. Any topic you bring up with be met with opinions. Talk religion or politics and you'll get into differences of opinions. You are in complete control over whether being gay, straight, republican, democrat, Christian, or atheist will become an issue or not.
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I completely disagree with this, and here's why.
A comparison: after Brown V. Board of Education, did every American's opinion of desegregation/people of different skin color suddenly change? Were African Americans suddenly welcomed into white schools with open arms? From what I recall, the answer is a resounding no. Maybe the law "protected" them, but that did not mean that they felt accepted or even safe.
And this was 60+ years ago... while we have come a long way, that doesn't change the schemas that a LOT of people still hold onto today. In fact, we still live among plenty of racists and small minded people.
The repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell was in 2010. Do you really think that people are suddenly accepting of gays serving in the military with no sort of dissent whatsoever? Bigotry is not dead in America. It is simply hidden because it goes against our social norms to outwardly preach hatred. But do not mistake this for its eradication-it simply expresses itself in other ways, such as attitude and discrimination against a person.
Back to the point.
There is nothing wrong with telling others that you are gay, especially if you consider it to be a defining part of who you are- just like it isn't wrong for me to let others know that I am a Christian. It's who I am, it's not changing, and I don't care what others think about it. It's not up to other people to tell you how you should express yourself (within the proper scope, of course). Ultimately, your decision of how to handle it is up to you, and it will be a defining time for you in your life. You learn a lot about yourself from the age of 18-22, and some of those things you have to learn the hard way. You'll learn some people suck, you'll learn some people are awesome (and you wonder how the heck you got so lucky as to know them!), you'll learn that sometimes you suck (again... we have to learn some things the hard way :)), and sometimes you're awesome (these moments are obviously much better). You are not in control of how others treat you, but rather you are in control of your attitude and helping those who may not understand where you are coming from to become more open minded and inclusive. Life is a journey, and yours is just about to truly begin. It's exciting and terrifying, but I for one wouldn't want it any other way.

Source: 3.5 years of "cadetdom" + 120 days away from receiving a Behavioral Science degree. :)
 
As General Mattis succinctly stated to congress, " I have never cared much about two consenting adults and who they go to bed with."
 
Haleym, you can disagree. That's fine. But I think your comparison isn't germane to my point. A persons skin color is immediately noticeable. In other words, the prejudice that someone would have based on skin color is active before getting to know the person. Most people, once they get to know a person, accept and like them, or dislike them, for who they are and the relationship they develop.

Sexual orientation isn't immediately known, unless you introduce yourself such as; hi I am mike, and I am gay. If you don't do that, then any bias or descrimination against being gay, isn't initially an issue. And the person will either like or dislike you based on your interaction and relationship you develop.

Are there butt heads in the world, and the academy? Sure there are. And those you'll simply have to deal with in a non social way. But I don't introduce myself as straight, or Italian, or republican, etc. and once I develop a relationship with someone, even cordial, if it comes out that I am a republican or conservative or Christian or whatever, and they don't like it, then we go our own way. Most times however, we simply accept each other for our differences and continue on. Just like I have plenty of friends who have different social, religious, political, etc beliefs than I.
 
Christcorp said:
Sexual orientation isn't immediately known, unless you introduce yourself such as; hi I am mike, and I am gay. If you don't do that, then any bias or descrimination against being gay, isn't initially an issue. And the person will either like or dislike you based on your interaction and relationship you develop.
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Yeah, but that's where it's different at the Academy. I don't think anyone here introduces themselves as gay or straight, but since we live with each other, if the person is "out", it's about as well known as other non-visible characteristics are (ie, religion.) It's a small school, people talk, and we're together for four years-it's likely you know many of these personal characteristics before you ever meet someone.

I think what Haley and I are picking at are the comments not to "flaunt" who you are. Is a gay cadet posting a profile picture with their significant other flaunting? Is bringing a same-sex ring dance date flaunting? Is a cadet putting their role as a leader in a religious group in their email signature flaunting their religion?

Sure, you should judge people based on how they interact with others and their quality of work before you consider more personal characteristics, but that's unreasonable to expect that's how things work here. There are some people who don't like gay people here, and that has very little to do with "flaunting."
 
+1 JMC0759

I think people really overthink this issue, but than again I am a 51 yo white woman.

My Godmother is a lesbian...huge no-no in the Catholic world. She officially came out in the 80's when paranoia of AIDS was at its height due to ignorance. She was also a HS teacher. Nobody made a deal of it. Why? Because it had no impact on how she performed her job. Her private life was her private life.

Personally, I still kind of chuckle at her making it official...a 45 yo woman that has never been married and lives with a female roommate was not hard to put 2 +2 together.
~ I too had a teacher come out in the early 80's. Nobody cared when he announced it publicly either.

No parent was demanding them to leave their profession because they might "convert" their child. Nobody thought OMG my kid somehow may get AIDS because they shared the water fountain at school.

We have several friends in the AF that are gay. Like Gen. Mattis, Bullet never cared who they slept with...all he cared about was that they got enough sleep to perform the mission!

There will always be ignorant people in this world.

haleym,
This is meant in no offense, but your post kind of made me chuckle.
haleym said:
A comparison: after Brown V. Board of Education, did every American's opinion of desegregation/people of different skin color suddenly change? Were African Americans suddenly welcomed into white schools with open arms? From what I recall, the answer is a resounding no
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You are at USAFA currently, I am not sure what you could recall since your parents were probably not yet a twinkle in your grandparents eyes, let alone you, which brings me back to life now regarding homosexuality in the AF.
DADT occurred 20+ years ago, you were in diapers. Bullet was serving ADAF. Just like with my Godmother nobody cared about it as long as it did not impact their ability to do their job and followed orders. Nobody went in the squadron went on a witch hunt to figure out if they were gay. Nobody did not invite them to squadron parties. They were part of our AF family.

Yes, there were ignorant people that made hay out of this, but like Mike stated nobody digs into your personal life unless you flaunt it.
~ Gay Pride parade in uniform posted on your FB page is an issue, but so would be going to a Pro-Life march.
Which I believe was his point when he stated this:
Christcorp said:
You are in complete control over whether being gay, straight, republican, democrat, Christian, or atheist will become an issue or not.
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OBTW, I could even compare this issue to another one. I am assuming you are a female. What was the 1st yr that USAFA accepted women? Look how far we have come? Look at Jeannie Flynn Leavitt as an example. Use Nikki (Fifi) Malachowski too.
~ USAFA accepted women for the class of 1976 if I am correct. By 1989 Jeannie was the 1st female fighter pilot. She was also the 1st female Wing King for a fighter unit, and that was almost a decade ago. Fifi was the 1st Thunderbird.

Just saying there will be some that say they got it because they had 2xs and not an xy gene. However, nobody flying with them cared whatsoever their genetic code was, it was all about handling the stick and their ability to lead.

I never served, just a wife that followed her DH around the world and hung out with them for 21+ yrs and now a Mom of an O3 pilot. Never did I EVER hear any negative comments or slight to them because they were gay. Any negative comment was tied to flaunting it publicly in a way that was not within regs. I never cared at all, gay straight, bi, as long as you make sure as Bullet's wingman you got him back home safe I couldn't care!
 
Christcorp said:
Haleym, you can disagree. That's fine. But I think your comparison isn't germane to my point. A persons skin color is immediately noticeable. In other words, the prejudice that someone would have based on skin color is active before getting to know the person. Most people, once they get to know a person, accept and like them, or dislike them, for who they are and the relationship they develop.

Sexual orientation isn't immediately known, unless you introduce yourself such as; hi I am mike, and I am gay. If you don't do that, then any bias or descrimination against being gay, isn't initially an issue. And the person will either like or dislike you based on your interaction and relationship you develop.

Are there butt heads in the world, and the academy? Sure there are. And those you'll simply have to deal with in a non social way. But I don't introduce myself as straight, or Italian, or republican, etc. and once I develop a relationship with someone, even cordial, if it comes out that I am a republican or conservative or Christian or whatever, and they don't like it, then we go our own way. Most times however, we simply accept each other for our differences and continue on. Just like I have plenty of friends who have different social, religious, political, etc beliefs than I.
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Good points CC. The conservatives among us don't get much compassion or understanding. The new wave don't care or understand that when we were raised, we did not see men kissing men on TV. Heck, tampon commercials in mixed company were embarrassing, and subjects like transgenders wold have been shocking. Today we are deluged with a plethora of things that we were raised to find objectionable. The younger crowd has been raised in an age where nudity on TV, sexual story lines, Viagra commercials, and open displays of homosexuality are common.
I don't blame them for feeling it is normal, but I feel old timers and the conservatives are chastised for being slow to change.
I've been called all sorts of names for giving honest opinions on this forum. I don't mind, my thoughts and convictions are mine. What's trendy today may not be in years to come. No harm intended. As to my original post, it was meant to advise a concerned Doolie to refrain from drawing attention. Apparently the word "flaunt" enraged some folks.
 
BlahuKahuna said:
I think what Haley and I are picking at are the comments not to "flaunt" who you are. Is a gay cadet posting a profile picture with their significant other flaunting? Is bringing a same-sex ring dance date flaunting? Is a cadet putting their role as a leader in a religious group in their email signature flaunting their religion?
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Would bringing a different sex significant other to the ring dance be seen as flaunting?

Not impo. It is someone you love. Flaunting at the ring dance would be twerking with your date!

Tag line with a religious quote is not flaunting either. It is just showing a part of you. For years I had as my tag line...raising teenagers is like nailing jell-o to a wall. It was how I felt. I wasn't flaunting that I had teenagers.

JMPO this is how I see it.

Bullet had a very religious commander, and he and his wife flaunted it. Any squadron function ended and started with some form of prayers, the last words were always the same... In thanks to Jesus Christ our Savior.
~ As a Catholic that should never have offended me, but it did. You see, Bullet's Mom was Jewish. I always thought to myself if my MIL was there how awkward she would feel listening to him in a leadership position stating something she does not believe.

That was flaunting his religious beliefs. He also attended mass on base and would take a look around to see those attending from the squadron. Funny thing is the ones that attended his religious mass got perk jobs, those that didn't ...well you can see where I am going!

I am concerned what cadets are saying here for one big reason. There is a disconnect between the academy and AD life. I am not there and I do not argue with them if there is this discrimination, but I can say without a doubt it was not evident in our lives when Bullet served. It appears as Mike aka CC is saying the same thing regarding ADAF life.
~ Hornetguy has been long gone from here, but as soon as the repeal occurred he came out, he has never hid his sexuality after the repeal, and nor should he have. We have had him in our life for @8 yrs. Bullet was honored to pin on his butter bars. He had 1000% belief that Hornet was going to be a great officer regardless of his sexuality.

I am just saying maybe the old fuddy duddies that have served ADAF on here are more open minded than your generation if you feel at USAFA you need to hide it. If that is true, than my heart breaks not only for the homosexual community, but also the heterosexual community, because like Gen. Mattis stated in his confirmation hearings he couldn't care. He has the right idea...all he cares about is the mission.
~ Get the job done, and if your prejudices preclude you from doing the mission than you have no place in this military, be it hetero or homosexual.

The wheel is round. For those at USAFA that believe there is a prejudice an enact upon that premise as a cadet, well life will probably not be pretty for them when they go ADAF and the wake up call that those prejudices will not be accepted or allowed by the hierarchy within the AD world.
 
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Maplerock said:
As to my original post, it was meant to advise a concerned Doolie to refrain from drawing attention. Apparently the word "flaunt" enraged some folks.
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Probably because you encouraged an appointee to hide who they were so they didn't draw attention?
 
Several years ago the city that I work for sent the entire workforce to diversity training. I have been in law enforcement for 37 years and I am very old school in my views. At round table discussions during the class you might be sitting with librarians, sanitation workers, fireman, secretaries, meter readers - you get my point.

The speaker, who was trying to get a rise out of the class, asked how we all might feel about working with someone who might be homosexual, have different political or religious views, or were from a different ethnic background. Maybe you just didn't care for them.

Our responses, which were written down, were then read aloud to the class. Every public safety employee had written down the same thing. If that employee was wearing the same uniform that we were then we could depend on them.

Good enough for me.
 
I am finding this thread so interesting...the 50+ crowd is saying nobody cares as long as you do the job...the 20 yo crowd is saying there are prejudices.

You'd think it would be completely opposite!
 
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