Being gay in USAFA

It is interesting.
Perhaps the views of the cadets, who are actually at USAFA right now, are the most relevant to the OP's question.

Pima said:
I am finding this thread so interesting...the 50+ crowd is saying nobody cares as long as you do the job...the 20 yo crowd is saying there are prejudices.

You'd think it would be completely opposite!
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One point I'd like to make is, when you first get to the academy, you don't have any social life off of the yard. Until parents weekend or later, you aren't going downtown and going to clubs. Even then, because of age, that is even rare. So there isn't really too many scenarios whereby someone would know you are gay or straight until they got to know you and you told them so.

Like I mentioned, is was almost a year after I got married before many I worked with even knew I was married. And considering I am straight, it's not like I was hiding anything. It simply wasn't an issue that was brought up. The first time many met my wife was at a squadron Christmas party.

Point is, at the academy, especially the first 6 months, the only way someone would know your sexual preference, religious and political views, etc is if you tell them. And by then, if you've established certain friendships, chances are that won't change.
 
I am not disagreeing.

I am just saying that it is strange to me that those that have served in the ADAF never cared about their sexuality even when DADT was in place. Now that it is repealed it appears your generation is MORE prejudice/LESS lenient than a generation you would have believed to be MORE prejudice and LESS lenient.

You need to ask yourselves as cadets why that is! It is your generation and your future. Our generation, your parents are all saying we don't care. Your generation that is saying you do care!

If it is something that bothers you and you are at USAFA than change the attitude. You are there, we are not. You can impact the environment, we cannot.

In essence, what are you doing to make sure that the prejudices of being homosexual do not exist like it does in the ADAF world.
~ Hornet will tell you that he was a spouse in the A10 community and everyone embraced their marriage. His husband did not get called out or dinged for being gay. He is a 2010 USAFA grad. Thus, we are talking very recent in the ADAF world, and a fighter community to boot.
~ USAFA might seem like pure hell, but getting through UPT and getting a fighter makes USAFA look like elementary school. No Commander, nor IP cared about his sexuality at UPT. They cared about handling the stick and his academics.

Again, just saying if as cadets you are bigots at USAFA, than where are your leaders (cadets) that stand up and say...academically they are the best and their sexuality has no importance in their ranking?

Us, silly parents aka old folks are saying it should not matter and nor do we give a flying fig the sex of who you love. It has no importance unless you can't fulfill the mission. You are saying that your age group does care and will penalize cadets due to their sexuality.

Ironic wouldn't you say? The idea that old coots are more progressive than the children they raised.
 
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Pima said:
I am not disagreeing.

I am just saying that it is strange to me that those that have served in the ADAF never cared about their sexuality even when DADT was in place. Now that it is repealed it appears your generation is MORE prejudice/LESS lenient than a generation you would have believed to be MORE prejudice and LESS lenient.

You need to ask yourselves as cadets why that is! It is your generation and your future. Our generation, your parents are all saying we don't care. Your generation that is saying you do care!
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I hardly think anyone is saying that there is "more prejudice." Active Duty isn't the environment anymore where people could get kicked out of the service for being open about their sexuality. Homophobia in the form of flagrant discrimination is on the way out. However, it is still the environment where I personally don't know a single gay (male) Marine.
I think what the younger guys are getting at is that it's not as simple as the older generation is making it out to be. There's not a black-and-white line between "everyone hates the gays" and all the cadets holding hands singing kumbaya. With the many centuries of old person experience on this board, I would expect the parent generation to understand that maybe the situation is more nuanced than you're giving it credit for.
 
As pima mentioned, what about the first female who attended the academy? I doubt that opinions changed instantly because of the change in policy. But the opinions did change. The same can be said now that certain career fields are open to women that weren't in the past. My son's career field has always been just for men until recently. Currently, a few women have tried for it. None yet have passed and made it through. That's not a sexist issue; the overwhelming vast majority of men don't make it either when they apply. But in time, I'm sure there will be a woman who does pass the requirements and makes it into that career field. When that happens, I'm sure there will be some growing pains. Fortunately, that career field is so small, and the members are such a tight group and family, that I'm sure there won't be too many issues. They all know what it takes to get that beret, and I'm pretty sure when a woman makes it through, the others will realize that she earned it just like they did.

Same thing with gays in the military. Most relationships, friendships, camaraderie, etc. are established before deep personal information is even brought up or considered. The relationships and friendships I made with the others in basic training and school were established without any talk of religion, politics, nationality, family background, etc. In my time, race was probably the hardest for some to deal with. It's immediate. You can't hide your skin color. Not saying you should hide who you are; but as I mentioned previously, skin color can make for a first impression that you have no control over.

And for what it's worth, even though there were a lot of social racism; and I grew up in an environment FILLED with racism from all sides; I actually found the military to be the LEAST RACIST environment I've ever experienced. Not saying that there wasn't some; especially in the 70's; just that the military had a LOT LESS than I grew up with in the New Jersey / New York City area. I attribute that mainly to an environment where most people had to concentrate on their COMMONALITIES instead of their difference. Especially overseas where ALL OF US were the minority. No matter what your skin color. I feel the same thing will happen in the military and academy when it comes to sexual orientation. You're in an environment where teamwork and accomplishing the mission is paramount. Therefor, people will concentrate more on what you each have in common, and how you NEED each other to accomplish the mission; than concentrating too much on your differences.
 
Pima said:
I am finding this thread so interesting...the 50+ crowd is saying nobody cares as long as you do the job...the 20 yo crowd is saying there are prejudices.

You'd think it would be completely opposite!
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Not surprising to me at all. Being at the top of the food chain here in the US-of-A (white, male, older, healthy, straight, etc), I am going to unconsciously assume we have a closer equality than reality because I view things through my lenses. :)

To illustrate my point, it's analogous to race relations or even the women's rights. From https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ficials-are-white-men/?utm_term=.79ade7247227
"We sit at a tentative junction in history where our great strides towards equality could be swept away by those unwilling to accept the change that needs to occur. In a recent piece by the Daily Show, reporters Jessica Williams and Samantha Bee interviewed two focus groups: one all white and the other all black, posing the question of how far we are from eliminating racism in America, from 0 - 100 percent. From the white panel, one man suggested we had racism 50 percent solved, while another woman said we were 75 percent there “because we have a black president.” To the same question, one of the black male panelists suggested the nation is somewhere in the 7 percent of the way to eliminating racism. One of his fellow female panelists scoffed at that percentage, saying the percentage was closer to -20."

So until I walk in someone shoes, I am going to assume that the problems are more minimal than they really are. So for some like myself before I do a little due diligence, I'm going to assume that my top 1% income doesn't have anything to do that I'm a male, white, and straight without any disabilities. Of course it does! So if I examine any statistic, I can easily see it was easier for me. That doesn't excuse anybody from sitting on their arse and coasting. That shouldn't erase the family cultural accomplishments of some high performing groups. See http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/04/the-most-and-least-educated-u-s-religious-groups/ (Hindu's are 77% college educated in the USA while Evangelicals are around 32%).

But the reality is, people prejudge even when they claim they "don't care". The statistics prove otherwise. EVERYBODY will prejudge. The only question is how much and how they express their opinion.
 
Pima said:
~ USAFA might seem like pure hell, but getting through UPT and getting a fighter makes USAFA look like elementary school.
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I'm not sure you can assume this is the case for everyone. Because everyone is different with different gifts. For instance, a lot of WOB members get fighters. I'm not sure why but I was told it happens more than average. I was also told there were several WOB Thunderbird pilots.

So what's pure Hell for some is easier for others. One such example is that normally the 1st year of medical school is considered the hardest and most stressful part of someone's medical career. Some would describe it as "pure Hell". I asked our DS's opinion. He said Harvard Medical School has about 1/3 the stress of USAFA. He has 15-20 hours a week of free time while some of his classmates are dog paddling to keep up. I've heard him say more than a few times: "Thank You USAFA" (for teaching him to learn what and how to study).

So I would assume that if someone is a natural with the stick, they are not going to be as stressed as (potentially) they were at USAFA. It depends...
 
Very interesting thread. It got me thinking and I wanted to add something to the discussion. Let me just say that this thought is coming from a 40 something year old white male of Jewish faith married to a Mexican woman of very Catholic faith. We have a 17 year old, 12 year old, and 5 year old that we affectionately call baby oops! It is with great pride that I see in my children a level of compassion, tolerance and acceptance that was not present when I grew up. I believe society is in a much better place now then it was 30 years ago and it will be better in the future.

That being said, I would like to try and define "flaunting." I belive that in a social gathering it is up to all to make all feel comfortable and accepted. That is to say, let conversation and differences develop naturally. If someone walks into a room and immediately states that the are gay, straight, Jewish, Catholic or whatever, you have now become an activist. It is being an activist in the wrong setting that many people find obnoxious. Don't get me wrong. There is a time and a place for activism. With out it we wouldn't be where we are today.

Perhaps I am being naive, but if you act within social "norms" one should expect and receive acceptance. If you act as if the world is against you, and it's your role to teach everyone a lesson, you might get resistance.

Just do your thing, be who you are and you'll find that most people don't care.
 
Christcorp said:
One point I'd like to make is, when you first get to the academy, you don't have any social life off of the yard. Until parents weekend or later, you aren't going downtown and going to clubs. Even then, because of age, that is even rare. So there isn't really too many scenarios whereby someone would know you are gay or straight until they got to know you and you told them so.

Like I mentioned, is was almost a year after I got married before many I worked with even knew I was married. And considering I am straight, it's not like I was hiding anything. It simply wasn't an issue that was brought up. The first time many met my wife was at a squadron Christmas party.

Point is, at the academy, especially the first 6 months, the only way someone would know your sexual preference, religious and political views, etc is if you tell them. And by then, if you've established certain friendships, chances are that won't change.
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I have been reading this thread with some interest for a while and figured I'd chime in on this.

Like the current cadets pointed out, you LIVE together at USAFA. Without "flaunting", however you define that, if you are out, chances are everyone will know pretty quickly even if you don't tell many more people than your basic roommate. The argument that you have control over that is a little unrealistic

Having been at USAFA at a time both right before and right after the repeal of DADT, I think I have an interesting perspective.

First, I can say that before the repeal of DADT, I knew at least a fairly high number of cadets who were gay. A couple I knew well (hornetguy) and others I saw in maybe one class. I didn't ask, they didn't tell me, and if you ask me to pinpoint how/when I "found out" I couldn't. My point here is to reiterate the point that others have made that USAFA is a small school and it isn't as simple as some are making it out to be. Even if you don't "flaunt" it, chances are everyone will know.

Now, after the repeal of DADT I noticed very little change other than some very happy cadets who could now talk about their SO, invite them to graduation etc... most of the general cadet population was happy for them and while there are some that I am sure had a problem, they never shared and it never cause friction (in my personal experience)

USAFA is an incredible mix of backgrounds and upbringings, but despite that, I never noticed a problem come from race, religion, sexuality or political views.

So my answer to the OP is don't worry about it. Be yourself just as you would in any other professional environment (when doing things like classes/interacting with upperclassmen) and when you are "off duty" or as close as you get during 4 dig year, just be yourself and don't give it a second thought. Good luck!
 
Because you quoted me, I will reply. You said, If you go out... that was the point of the post you quoted me on. For quite a while, as a Dollie, you won't be going out. As such, I said you will develop friendships and relationships initially without the topic even being discussed or an issue. Unless of course you bring it up. When the time does come for others to find out, the relationships and friendships you've built will either be real, and the others won't care; (the most likely response); or you'll find the individual isn't really a friend, and you all won't socialize together.

This was a point being made in comparison to race and skin color, which is immediately noticed and prejudice is immediate on first impression. Don't read into it more than is written. And sorry, but I believe people shouldn't make this issue more complicated than it is. It really isn't. Especially with current rules and policies.
 
No, I said if you ARE out, big difference. I'm saying that people will know, much sooner than you'd like unless you actively try to hide that part of yourself. I am referring to as early as BCT/first month of classes.
 
Your recent experience, and that of current cadets, is really what can inform the question raised by the OP.

For those of us who have never spent a day as a cadet...I am not sure what we can offer in regards to understanding the environment for any student who is the member of a minority.


USAFA10s said:
No, I said if you ARE out, big difference. I'm saying that people will know, much sooner than you'd like unless you actively try to hide that part of yourself. I am referring to as early as BCT/first month of classes.
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Folks, this is an excellent thread!! :groupwave:

This is informative, opinionated but not nasty or accusatory; in essence, it's what these forums are about: sharing information with each other to help each other grow!!

KUDOS TO ALL!!

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
(And then there's that moderator thingie...)
 
My daughter had a dear friend who went to USAFA (while my DD chose another path). While there, Friend came to visit and told us she was a lesbian at a family dinner.

Friend: Fencersfamily, I am a lesbian.
FF: Ok.
Friend: Will you treat me differently now that you know?
FF: Do you want us to do so?
Friend: Absolutely not.
FF: OK. We won't. Now quit talking and pass the chicken.
 
fencersmother said:
My daughter had a dear friend who went to USAFA (while my DD chose another path). While there, Friend came to visit and told us she was a lesbian at a family dinner.

Friend: Fencersfamily, I am a lesbian.
FF: Ok.
Friend: Will you treat me differently now that you know?
FF: Do you want us to do so?
Friend: Absolutely not.
FF: OK. We won't. Now quit talking and pass the chicken.
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Glad to hear you're not a homophobe. Care to share how that's relevant to the thread about the climate at USAFA?
 
My anecdote is just another example that ... no one cares.

If you really want to go to a school where people reward you for your sexual orientation, go to Reed College or Grinnell. They do care there.
 
fencersmother said:
My anecdote is just another example that ... no one cares.

If you really want to go to a school where people reward you for your sexual orientation, go to Reed College or Grinnell. They do care there.
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"I'm really glad I don't have a gay roommate." -my USAFA roommate, June 2013.

People do care. Not all of them, but take off your rose-colored glasses and stop pretending you understand the culture here.
 
Unfortunately, there are idiots who do care. However, though from conversations with cadets we've hosted, it seems to be a small group of idiots. So it's naive to say nobody at the Academy cares unless you flaunt it. And, in a tight community like the Academy, it's very likely that one's sexuality will become known in the course of living together, having personal conversations, and sharing personal insight - and it should become known because they shouldn't feel hindered when someone asks a question that leads to mentioning one's sexual preferences (or even attending a dance with a date who is the same gender). This isn't to say things aren't improving, they are. But we can't tell someone in absolute terms that no one at the Academy or in the military cares if someone is gay. that's like saying that racism has been weeded out of the cadet community. Narrow minded people will always be around, and it's better to tell them not to flaunt their attitudes.
Seeing faults though does not diminish the great school that the Academy is and what it offers, it's just being honest about things - as BlahuKahuna points out with his personal experience. For instance, the Academy can be commended for allowing Blacks to attend while a lot of the US was still segregating them from public places and southern colleges were stopping them from attending.
 
I don't think fencermother was saying that no one; as in 0% at the academy cares if you're gay or not. I believe she was saying; or I should say I "PERCEIVED" what she said when saying "No One Cares"; is that the academy isn't some socially unique place. There isn't going to be any greater level of concern about this subject vs in any other university or cultural center.

In other words; why ask and worry about such attitudes at the academy? It is simply an extension of our society. As such, it's going to have basically the same concerns. If a person is concerned about the academy being homophobic, and they are questioning applying or attending; then they might as well question attending any university or living in any community. If anything; because the academy "IS THE MILITARY" (Contrary to some of the parents who THINK their little baby is going OFF TO COLLEGE); there's a lot more RULES/REGULATIONS that can actually demand social tolerance. If a person can't conform or live by these rules, they will be shown the door. And if they discriminate, disciplinary actions most likely will be taken.

So me personally; I think the people who are so concerned with this issue, are more concerned with it than the people they are afraid will be prejudice. When don't ask don't tell was the rule, individuals had some reason to worry. But today, these individuals have the rules/regs/UCMJ on their side. And the one thing military personnel know quite well, is 1) There are a lot of rules; 2) Rules change a lot; 3) We don't have to like some of the rules; 4) We WILL follow the rules; 5) If we don't, it's our A$$.
*******************************
On a side note. As for your roommate saying they were glad they didn't have a gay roommate...... So what? That's their preference. If some day women and men are equal with EVERYTHING, it would be understandable if a male or female was glad they didn't have a roommate of the opposite sex. This is simply a preference. And YES, preferences ARE PREJUDICE. (Don't dissect the word prejudice. Yes, it means to have an unfavorable opinion of something that is pre-judged and without knowledge. But the word also has an accepted meaning that a person simply dislikes something/someone/etc. Even when they have knowledge and are educated.) For instance; I HATE ASPARAGUS!!! I am PREJUDICE against asparagus. I am not ignorant of it's health benefits or taste. I simply hate it. Just like freedom of speech; you can't "Defend" freedom of speech ONLY when you APPROVE of what the other person is saying. If you truly believe in individual rights, then you defend ALL of them. (Maybe the kids at berkley should learn a thing or two).

Now; DISCRIMINATION; that's a TOTALLY DIFFERENT subject. I can be prejudice against Asparagus, Gay lifestyle, Liberal Politics, Conservative values, etc. (Meaning I am against it). That's my right and freedom. I don't however have the right to DISCRIMINATE against a person for having beliefs, thoughts, speech, religion, lifestyle, etc. that I don't agree with. When DISCRIMINATION occurs, that needs to be addressed and the "DISCRIMINATOR" needs to be disciplined. But NEVER confuse discrimination and prejudice. They are 2 totally different things. I'm sure you are prejudice about MANY THINGS in life. (Not ignorant, simply don't like, agree, etc. with). But; I bet you don't DISCRIMINATE against others because they happen to believe in things you don't agree with. Your roommate has every right in the world to prefer to not have a gay roommate. S/He expressed their preference. Now, if for some reason they had a gay roommate and they discriminated against that roommate; then THAT would be a problem that needed to be addressed.
 
What if the comment was "I'm really glad I don't have a black roommate?" Would that still be "harmless predjudice?" And would you feel comfortable living with someone who just expressed a distaste for something deeply personal and unchangeable about yourself?

I would not. For a highly imperfect analogy: when I joined my squadron, I was the first female pilot they got since the last one left about six months prior. Before I even showed up, one of my friends there gave me a heads up that guys were complaining about "not being an all balls squadron anymore," general complaints about female Marines, and asking about me to make sure I "wouldn't ruin things" (whatever that means). Asking about new guys coming to the squadron and general complaints about boot pilots sucking is par for the course, but no one *****es about another Mk1 Mod1 White Dude coming to the squadron. Things have overall worked out fine, but you're high if you think hearing those things didn't exactly make me feel like the most welcome member of the ready room when I showed up.

We all harbor predjudices, big and small, due to our backgrounds and experiences. That's not something that's going to change. However, we should all strive to recognize them and work through it.
 
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