Being gay in USAFA

As long as the person doesn't discriminate, their personal preference shouldn't matter. Many people want everyone else to not only accept what they or society claim to be right, but they want them to accept it as their own preference too.

The same thing can be said for the man who prefers not to date a heavy woman or a woman who prefers to not date a man who is bald. That doesn't make them a terrible person. This argument can extend to any area. Do you force a white to date a black to prove they aren't racist. Or a man has to date another man to prove they aren't a homophobe.

As long as a person doesn't discriminate, they can have any preferences they want.
 
Thank you, Christcorp. You said well what I've said poorly (or neglected to say).

And now, I'm outta this thread.
 
Topics like this can be very touchy. Many can see it from a very superficial viewpoint. Many want to see it as very black and white. (No pun intended). A great example is all the political debates going on around the country concerning immigration policies. Just because a large portion of the country wants a secure border and people to be properly vetted prior to entering; doesn't mean they are against immigrants, are raciest, anti-muslim, or anything else. This is people trying to view the subject from a very narrow position. If you lock your door at night before going to bed, that doesn't mean you hate all your neighbors and people in general.

I had a roommate in the air force who had issues with his previous roommate. The other roommate was from Alabama, and the guy who became my roommate was from Detroit. He didn't hate the guy from alabama. He simply had no desire to be his roommate because they were too different. Especially in their taste for music. That didn't make one a redneck and one a blueneck. That didn't make the guy from detroit some type of bigot. The funny thing (To show you how times change) was that both of these guys are black, and the southerner from alabama also had a confederate flag hanging on the wall in his dorm.

The point is; not everything is so black and white. Just because a person doesn't prefer someone who isn't like them, doesn't make it a problem. A white who doesn't want to date a black doesn't make them racist. A woman who doesn't want to date another woman doesn't make her a homophobe. A person isn't a bigot because they don't agree with another person's beliefs and lifestyle.

Now....... when a person discriminates; then they can become a bigot, homophobe, racist, misogynist, etc. Simple having a preference that others don't like, isn't a problem. It's whether or not you take actions (Discriminate) against others you disagree with.
 
2% of the population is reported to be gay. When I went to school I never knew any gays. (Of course they were there, but didn't advertise it).

They're out, and they're here to stay. Is it a choice? Is it medical? I don't know. Is it right or wrong? I don't know. Like I tried to say earlier, I'm not savvy to the whole deal, but I doubt it's contagious.

Maybe we just need to practice the golden rule.
 
Topics like this can be very touchy. Many can see it from a very superficial viewpoint. Many want to see it as very black and white. (No pun intended). A great example is all the political debates going on around the country concerning immigration policies. Just because a large portion of the country wants a secure border and people to be properly vetted prior to entering; doesn't mean they are against immigrants, are raciest, anti-muslim, or anything else. This is people trying to view the subject from a very narrow position. If you lock your door at night before going to bed, that doesn't mean you hate all your neighbors and people in general.

I had a roommate in the air force who had issues with his previous roommate. The other roommate was from Alabama, and the guy who became my roommate was from Detroit. He didn't hate the guy from alabama. He simply had no desire to be his roommate because they were too different. Especially in their taste for music. That didn't make one a redneck and one a blueneck. That didn't make the guy from detroit some type of bigot. The funny thing (To show you how times change) was that both of these guys are black, and the southerner from alabama also had a confederate flag hanging on the wall in his dorm.

The point is; not everything is so black and white. Just because a person doesn't prefer someone who isn't like them, doesn't make it a problem. A white who doesn't want to date a black doesn't make them racist. A woman who doesn't want to date another woman doesn't make her a homophobe. A person isn't a bigot because they don't agree with another person's beliefs and lifestyle.

Now....... when a person discriminates; then they can become a bigot, homophobe, racist, misogynist, etc. Simple having a preference that others don't like, isn't a problem. It's whether or not you take actions (Discriminate) against others you disagree with.

Word!
 
"Mk1 Mod1 White Dude"
We all harbor predjudices, big and small, due to our backgrounds and experiences. That's not something that's going to change. However, we should all strive to recognize them and work through it.

Yep.
 
As long as the person doesn't discriminate, their personal preference shouldn't matter. Many people want everyone else to not only accept what they or society claim to be right, but they want them to accept it as their own preference too.

The same thing can be said for the man who prefers not to date a heavy woman or a woman who prefers to not date a man who is bald. That doesn't make them a terrible person. This argument can extend to any area. Do you force a white to date a black to prove they aren't racist. Or a man has to date another man to prove they aren't a homophobe.

As long as a person doesn't discriminate, they can have any preferences they want.

Your last statement is very flawed.
Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of the problems that we face as a society have to do with wanting everyone to think the way that we think (especially with the PC culture). We want that diversity in opinion, but at the same time, where do you draw the line on "diversity in opinion"? How is it that you can hold certain prejudices and not have that influence your actions? It is foolish to think that the personal views you hold have absolutely no effect whatsoever on your behavior. I would even argue that it's completely impossible.
This is where we run into a problem. Is it right to prefer to be friends with whites (or even a step further, to think they are superior) or to prefer not to have a gay roommate? At what point does this stop as an officer and a leader, when I (quietly, of course) prefer my white airmen? Even if I never show it, as you say, I would say that it's not right to prefer any one person due to race, religion, ethnicity, sexuality, you name it. So to say it doesn't matter what prejudice you hold, in my opinion, is a dangerous concept, because writing it off and saying "it's okay to feel this way as long as I never express it" is really you just lying to yourself. You aren't doing anything to educate yourself more or confront where your feelings stem from when you take that cop out.
In reality, as a leader, I think you should be asking yourself why you feel this way. Why is it that I would prefer white friends? Why would I prefer not to have a gay roommate? Is it because it was the way I was raised or because it makes me uncomfortable? Like Hurricane said, we all hold prejudice. That will never not be true. But to say we should just accept that and hold any views we want is totally unacceptable as an officer because it provides no room for growth. We should always be working towards understanding our own and others' perspectives (not that we have to agree with them, of course) or we are not being the best we can be, which is what our airmen deserve.
 
I'll make one of my rare appearances.

I graduated in 2010 from USAFA, same year DADT was repealed (repeal went into effect in Sep 2011). I was there at the end of the policy. When I got onto active duty, I came out. I also served on the Blue Alliance board for a time there (USAFA LGBT affinity alumni group) and spoke/interacted with many of the current (at the time) LGBT cadets and allies in Spectrum (LGBT cadet group). The cadets didn't seem to have any issues with being open.

In reality, being gay was one of many aspects that people may or may not have discriminated against. It probably was less considered by those who disliked me than the fact that I was liberal or considerably more educated (in terms of degrees and experience at RAND). I had issues at Laughlin. Some had undertones that I was gay but came down more to other factors and toxic leaders. That was a toxic time at Laughlin for everyone anyway so hard to tell.

My advice: be yourself, be open, be happy and let the cards fall as they will. There will be assholes out there and there's not much you can do about that. Don't be afraid to attend USAFA or join the military because of your orientation. I am part of a group of 1000+ junior officers on a private facebook group who span all services and military jobs. Most have no issues and some occasionally do. But as I said, being gay is one of many traits that people will be assholes about anyway.

Personally, I've been much happier leaving the military for a variety of reasons. Being gay is a part of that, but hardly a deciding factor on its own.

Good luck.
 
You can have these thoughts Haley. You can question yourself on WHY you believe a certain way. That's your personal issue to deal with. Whether or not you are able to not let it affect your "Professional" abilities as a leader or follower, is totally YOUR CROSS that you must bare.

You can be as introspective as you want. While I have a number of college degrees, my first (AND FAVORITE) was my degree in Psychology. Especially looking into WHY people act the way they do. Much of which bled over to Sociology. Most people act a certain way because they are a product of their environment. But non of that really matters. Wanting to be introspective and asking yourself WHY you feel a certain way is great. It may even help you to become a more well rounded and knowledgeable person. But it isn't germane to being a good leader; or follower. Well..... I will qualify that and say that nothing is ABSOLUTE. I am sure there are some people that aren't able to keep their personal beliefs out of their professional life; but again, that's a personal issue that the individual has to deal with.

In the military, there are plenty of rules, regulations, and decisions that are made everyday that I didn't agree with; yet, I was able to support, follow, and lead others in those policies. I was able to separate my personal feelings. What if I'm a conservative republican and you are a liberal democrat? I can still treat you fairly and be an objective leader. What if I'm a christian and a person who works for me is a satan workshipper. I can still lead in a professional manner and be fair. It is ok to disagree with another person's beliefs, lifestyle, or a range of other things. You can still be fair and professional with them.

Now...... if you CAN'T...... then you ARE DISCRIMINATING. That is NOT acceptable. But don't think that it's not possible to be able to differ with a person and not be fair and objective. That's the problem with a LOT of society and the PC culture. That is why DADT (Don't ask - Don't tell) was such a BAD THING. It promoted the ostrich syndrome. (Burying your head in the sand). "If we don't talk about it, it doesn't exist". Like not talking to your son/daughter about sex or drugs, and being shocked if one is/gets someone pregnant or is using drugs. You can be as introspective as you want, and try to figure out why you don't like a certain thing. So what if you FIND THE ANSWER. What if you still don't want to change your position?

If you STILL don't want to date someone of the same gender, or believe it's right, should you have to quit the military or quit society? What if I still don't want to date a girl who weighs more than 120 pounds. What if I still don't want to socialize with liberal democrats? What if i still don't want to marry a person of a different race, color, or nationality? The same can be said in the opposite. If a person is gay, as a leader, isn't it possible that they may not be able to be fair and professional with the heterosexual? Maybe the liberal democrat can't be professional and objective with a conservative republican that they supervise.

It is good to be introspective. Most people do it everyday about something, and don't even realize it. It is what helps you grow. It's what helps you mature and evolve in your life. But the WHY you believe the way you do, is NOT IMPORTANT. What IS important, is HOW you BEHAVE. That is the indicator on whether you are able to conform to society. And that society could be the military, the company you work for, the friend/acquaintances you associate with, the social laws you obey, etc. This is what is important. This is what makes a society work or fail. Not why people believe as they do; but how they behave. Behavior is where RESPECT comes from. Yes, some BEHAVE out of fear of discipline, incarceration, etc. But MOST people behave out of respect. "Live and let Live". I have friends I totally disagree with over many social/religious/political issues. Doesn't mean I can't still be friends with them. And I've lead a lot of individuals, and have BEEN LEAD by a number of individuals, where we didn't agree on a lot of things. But we knew we had a job to do, and we were able to move on in a professional manner.

So, if you need to LEARN WHY you believe as you do; in order to make you an objective, fair, and professional leader/employee; then that's fine. That's how you found to work out your issues. But that's not necessary for everyone. Some people can simply accept that there are things around them that they don't like, agree with, etc. but they know that they have to accept them in order to fit in and be part of that society.

On a personal note: I LOVE diversity. It's what makes life interesting. I DON'T WANT everyone to think the same way. It's ok for people to have different political, social, religious, perspectives. I have no problem with those who think differently that me. What I want however, is respect on both sides. Both sides can be discussed, debated, and even argued. And hopefully each side will learn something. Maybe their beliefs become stronger. Maybe their understanding of others is improved. It is healthy. I don't want everyone to believe that a gay lifestyle is good. I don't want everyone to believe that conservative values are best. I don't want everyone to think only 1 religion is the right one. I want the differences of opinions. But I want each side to respect the other side. (Unlike protesters who say they are exercising their right to FREE SPEECH, but in their protest, they STOP the other side from exercising their right to free speech). That is discrimination. That is wrong. Differences are good. I don't care so much of WHY you believe as you do; as I do on HOW you behave around those you disagree with. The WHY part is the INTERESTING part. The HOW is the IMPORTANT part.
 
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You will have roommates you like and roommates you hate. I had a roommate who set his clock to go off many times in the morning. He walked around passing gas. I didn't appreciate that. And I had roommates who were extremely considerate, the best.

I got out of the Coast Guard before the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell. I know of people who were kicked out for DADT, who would have, in my opinion, been great officers. I had classmates who came out after they got out or after repeal. It didn't change my opinion of them. It didn't change them, but it was probably a relief to be more themselves than they could in the past.

Why would you be uncomfortable with a gay roommate? Maybe the concern is "is he looking at me while I change?"

You'll spend time changing in your rooms, with your roommate in the room. You'll also take group showers (at least we did).

And then there could be other questions, could two gay or lesbian cadets room together? If they could, why couldn't I room with a female?

These are some of the questions we batted around before repeal. We never had answers, just questions.

In general, just worry about your own actions, and ensure you're doing what's right, straight, gay, bisexual, etc.

In the end you're all on the same team. Embrace that.
 
Well said LITS. Where so many lose it, is they can't tell the difference between "ACCEPT" and "BELIEVE". And it's totally ok that there is a difference. Everyone in Colorado ACCEPT that recreational use of Marijuana is legal. That doesn't mean that everyone must BELIEVE that it is right for them; and that THEY must PARTAKE of it. In the military and our country, people ACCEPT that gay lifestyles are legal. That doesn't mean they have to BELIEVE it is right, especially for them. People ACCEPT that there are many different religions that can be practiced; but that doesn't mean they BELIEVE that they are all the right one.

The problem arises when someone goes beyond ACCEPTING, and they want to force others to BELIEVE. It's wrong for a straight person to try and force their belief that being gay is wrong. It's wrong for a gay person to force their belief that being gay is right. Or for a christian to try and force their belief on another religion that their's is wrong. Or for an atheist to force their belief that others shouldn't be able to practice their religion because they believe it is wrong. ACCEPT and BELIEVE are two different things, and that's totally ok.
 
Why would you be uncomfortable with a gay roommate? Maybe the concern is "is he looking at me while I change?"

You'll spend time changing in your rooms, with your roommate in the room. You'll also take group showers (at least we did).
You're completely missing the point. It's not about the answer. It's about being introspective and questioning why it is you would have a preference regarding a roommate's sexuality/race/whatever and determining whether or not your beliefs are well founded or not, and actively trying to work against your prejudice towards a person. Which, in reality, none of those reasons are well founded whatsoever.
 
I'm not sure it's that deep.

I don't have the answers but maybe you can answer this... why can't a male and female room together at an academy.
 
You're completely missing the point. It's not about the answer. It's about being introspective and questioning why it is you would have a preference regarding a roommate's sexuality/race/whatever and determining whether or not your beliefs are well founded or not, and actively trying to work against your prejudice towards a person. Which, in reality, none of those reasons are well founded whatsoever.

You can be totally introspective and question why you have certain preferences. That doesn't mean you will change those preferences. As far as your beliefs being "Well Founded"; that is totally personal. I can believe they are well founded and you can believe they aren't. And my point is, there is no need to try and "Work against your prejudice". Why would you try? People's perceptions, beliefs, etc. are questioned everyday. People change, even just a little bit, every day. If a prejudice towards something changes; then it will change. But even if it doesn't, so what? What matters is can you be socially accepting and professional. if you can, then that's all there is. If you can't, then you are discriminating, and THAT is a problem.

LITS does bring up a very good point. If a person's preference shouldn't matter in having a roommate, then why not have COMPLETE COED dorms? Why not have men and women sharing a dorm room. As for sexual chemistry, that's no different than having 2 gay men or 2 gay women sharing the same dorm room. Why is that allowed, but a heterosexual male and female can't be roommates.

I guess the perfect combination is either 2 straight men; or 2 straight women; or 1 gay man and 1 gay woman. Any other combination; such as a heterosexual man and woman; 2 gay men; or 2 gay women could be awkward for one or both of the roommates.
 
I'm not sure it's that deep.

I don't have the answers but maybe you can answer this... why can't a male and female room together at an academy.

I beg to differ.
Answer this. How is your question even relevant to the thread whatsoever, or helpful to the OP or lurkers?
 
I beg to differ.
Answer this. How is your question even relevant to the thread whatsoever, or helpful to the OP or lurkers?

So you don't have answer?


Now, if it's a concern or not is different from if it's a reasonable concern.
 
So you don't have answer?


Now, if it's a concern or not is different from if it's a reasonable concern.

I don't have an answer because I don't argue with people on the internet about policies that are out of my control.
This is not the intent of the thread and I'm not going to derail it further.
 
"Policies that are out of one's control".

That is an excellent point. The military; because that's what we're centered around, is based around policies. Some of these policies we agree with. Some of them; we don't. But if a person wants to "PLAY THIS GAME", then they have to play by the rules. If you want to play soccer, you CAN'T use your hands. Doesn't matter if you like the rule or not. If you want to play that game; then that is the rule. Well; in the military, individuals must accept that some of the military individuals will have sexual preferences that are not similar to theirs. This is something they must ACCEPT. That is the policy. That is the rule. If you don't like this rule, go play a "Different" game some place else.

So, back to the beginning of this thread. Why should you have any concerns? Why even ask about the attitude of people in the military towards gays? It's totally irrelevant. If a person is in the military, then they have ACCEPTED the policy and rules concerning gays in the military. That's pretty much it. Are there going to be some who don't want to be your friend if you're gay? YUP. Guarantee it. Are there going to be some who won't want to associate with you because you're gay? YUP. Guarantee it. But guess what? There's going to be some that won't want to be your friend or associate with you because you're a republican, or a democrat, or a christian, or a muslim, or an atheist, or you like country music, or punk, or maybe just because they don't like you or have anything personally in common with you. And another guess what........ You will find the EXACT same environment at every college, city, town, work place, etc. in the entire world.

This is each individual person's right to like/dislike, agree/disagree, etc. But the advantage you have at the academy and in the military is: The military won't tolerate another military individual from discriminating against you. The one thing we learned in the military, was how to do our job. I worked with a lot of people I didn't like. But we did our jobs. And even individuals I didn't like; not necessarily because of race, gender, religion, or anything else other than I had nothing in common with them and I didn't like them; we still had each other's back. I can honestly say I got into a bar fight or two because some locals were messing with a fellow airman. Even someone I didn't like or even know. We still had each other's back.

So whatever concerns you may have about being gay in the military; I can promise you that the threat is so much LESS than it is in the civilian world.
 
So whatever concerns you may have about being gay in the military; I can promise you that the threat is so much LESS than it is in the civilian world.

I again have to disagree. If you haven't been at USAFA somewhat recently (and even my insight is getting a little dated) it's hard to know what it is like. You may have an idea of what you think it should be like, but it isn't AD Air Force and it isn't college.

To the OP and any lurkers, if you are from an area that is very socially liberal (DC, southern California, Portland OR etc...) USAFA is going to feel very different and being gay AT USAFA (note this is NOT the same as being gay in the military in general) is going to have some challenges that are not present in normal civilian life/ at a liberal college. Now as I said before, I never encountered any major conflicts due to someone's sexual orientation, but there were certainly a few pretty hurtful rumors that flew around periodically.

I would never tell anyone not to attend the Academy because they were worried about how their sexual orientation would impact them, because it's a great school and an amazing opportunity, and the extra stress from being different is worth it. That said, there WILL be some degree of extra stress. Saying there won't be is sugar coating it.
 
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