'Best and brightest' article from hometownannapolis.com

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes. I think Mongo was correct when he said the USNA (and the other SAs) have gone into these areas and tried to educate and excite prospective applicants. I believe that education probably extended to the MOCs and their staffs concerning the process and the need to proactively encourage their constituents to apply to the SAs.

Mongo and I disagree on whether the USNA is appointing the best and brightest without regards to race and ethnicity, and of course that was the major theme of the newspaper article quoted by the OP.

I see where you're coming from aglages. I still think these low nominating MOC's are shirking their duties. They should be doing more outreach IMO. Thank you for taking time to share your thoughts on this always interesting conversation.
 
Last edited:
Sounds like the authors would advocate closing the Prep school. If the existence of the prep school is evidence of a two tiered system then so be it but this is not new. The Prep schools have been around for decades.

Perhaps 40 years ago the Academies could not get enough qualified candidates without sending some to the Prep school - these days this is clearly not the situation.

In reviewing the two tables of statistics - I am not sure that SAT's are evidence of a two-tiered system. I would rue the day when our Service Academies accepted candidates based on the SAT. It's pretty commonly known that the SAT is not a perfect test, by any means. I have seen some pretty smart and capable students be unable to get a 500 in verbal yet do very well in college.
The SAT is a biased test that favors kids from high income, low minority communities. Demographics are changing, many minorities (yes, legal ones) come from families where English is not the first language. These kids are at a disadvantage in taking the test.
The SAT is a guideline only - you can't get an 800 by guessing but scoring low doesn't not an idiot make.

Folks need to remember that the Service Academies are America's academies. Their mission is to provide Officers in their respective branch's. The mission is NOT to provide a free education to the kids who score the highest on the SAT's.

Well, the mission is not to provide a free education to kids who stoke the strongest feelings of liberal guilt either. Best qualified should be selected. Period. The notion that enlisted members cannot be effectively led and will not effectively perform their sworn duties unless the officer ranks mirror the enlisted structure in racial and ethnic breakdown is overtly racist, condescending, and--frankly--insulting to the enlisted members. We should be appalled by the suggestion, not goofily wiping tears from our eyes over how inspired and wise it supposedly is.
 
SAT or ACT is one measure of academic achievement, GPA is another measure of candidate's standing among peers, another factor is physical - PT test, but the whole person eval includes credit (points given) for things line 1st generation, etc - how do these factors evaluate leadership or officer potintial? Furthermore, a candidate must indicate race - too bad the catagories relating to ethnic or race cant be left off. Maybe asking income ranges might be more fair - if one is looking to give some "allowance" for "disadvantaged".
 
. . . . you can't get an 800 by guessing but scoring low doesn't not an idiot make.

True enough in the specific. But in the general, it's not where you want to place your bet. The vast majority of test takers who score low do so because they lack aptitude or effective study skills--or both.

Look, anyone can script anecdotal, fictional candidates who score 350 on the SAT but are budding Colin Powells who heroically and successfully raised their six siblings in extreme poverty next door to a meth house because mom was dead and dad was in prison for killing her. It's hard to say there isn't a place in the officer ranks for someone who demonstrates extraordinary self-discipline and a sense of duty and personal responsibility. But is that really what we're talking about here? Or are we talking about kids who score low on standardized tests because they lack aptitude or effective study skills--or both--whose heroism really amounts to their growing up in poverty, which inspires feelings of shame and guilt in those who did not? If we pretend they are just as qualified as the candidates who score 700, who have worked diligently at their studies, do we not do them--and America--a disservice?

Notice that I made no mention of race. But race is the constant subtext here. I would be willing to bet that most persons reading the paragraph above were envisioning a black candidate when I described the low performing candidate. But let the low achieving, impoverished candidate be Scots-Irish red-haired ruddy-faced freckled kid from Appalachia, and do you think Admirals Mullen and Roughead would give even a half-second of sympathetic consideration? Would you? I highly doubt it. But let the candidate be black or Hispanic, and suddenly we're moving him to the head of the line. I think that's the point of the article that headed this thread.

That, my friends, is racism. And it is unacceptable.
 
But let the low achieving, impoverished candidate be Scots-Irish red-haired ruddy-faced freckled kid from Appalachia, and do you think Admirals Mullen and Roughead would give even a half-second of sympathetic consideration? Would you? I highly doubt it. But let the candidate be black or Hispanic, and suddenly we're moving him to the head of the line. I think that's the point of the article that headed this thread.

That, my friends, is racism. And it is unacceptable.

And it is not practiced because you are correct that it would be discriminatory. There has, in fact, been a deemphasis on SATS in certain situations. Of course, one of these situations is historically underrepresented areas. Another is the areas of which you speak, the historically economically depressed areas. I know. I represent one of these areas as a BGO. In previous years, a 570/530 SAT was absolutely mandatory in order to be declared an official candidate and granted a candidate number. Actually, commencing about four years ago, 570/530 themselves no longer quaranteed a number and preliminary qualifications were creeping upwards. However, this year I have had at least a half dozen candidates who did not meet the 570/530 but were allowed to progress with the application process. Some were in the 400 range, both math and verbal. Admissions is spending a lot of extra time pursuing these candidates, combing their "whole person" for indicators of probability of success. None are black. None are Hispanic. And more than their fair share is red-headed, ruddy-faced, and freckled.

Sorry to destroy your unsupported hypothesis.
 
True enough in the specific. But in the general, it's not where you want to place your bet. The vast majority of test takers who score low do so because they lack aptitude or effective study skills--or both.

Look, anyone can script anecdotal, fictional candidates who score 350 on the SAT but are budding Colin Powells who heroically and successfully raised their six siblings in extreme poverty next door to a meth house because mom was dead and dad was in prison for killing her. It's hard to say there isn't a place in the officer ranks for someone who demonstrates extraordinary self-discipline and a sense of duty and personal responsibility. But is that really what we're talking about here? Or are we talking about kids who score low on standardized tests because they lack aptitude or effective study skills--or both--whose heroism really amounts to their growing up in poverty, which inspires feelings of shame and guilt in those who did not? If we pretend they are just as qualified as the candidates who score 700, who have worked diligently at their studies, do we not do them--and America--a disservice?

Notice that I made no mention of race. But race is the constant subtext here. I would be willing to bet that most persons reading the paragraph above were envisioning a black candidate when I described the low performing candidate. But let the low achieving, impoverished candidate be Scots-Irish red-haired ruddy-faced freckled kid from Appalachia, and do you think Admirals Mullen and Roughead would give even a half-second of sympathetic consideration? Would you? I highly doubt it. But let the candidate be black or Hispanic, and suddenly we're moving him to the head of the line. I think that's the point of the article that headed this thread.

That, my friends, is racism. And it is unacceptable.

"Diversity is the number one priority" at the Naval Academy.
Admiral Gary Roughead,
Chief of Naval Operations

Diversity is #1.

Not "making the best officers."
Not "preparing officers to lead in time of war."
Not "educating and training leaders of character."
Not "selecting the nation's most qualified candidates."

They all fall in behind the CNO's #1 priority. EVERYTHING is behind #1, nothing can be more important than #1.

And "diversity" means skin color, nothing else. Don't believe any double-speak about "socio-economic factors" and the like.

It is wrong, it goes against every concept of a color-blind society, and instead institutes "the ol' quota system."

And there are naval officers out there who will defend this "reverse racist" policy at the expense of their integrity.

Sad, actually.
 
There has, in fact, been a deemphasis on SATS in certain situations. Of course, one of these situations is historically underrepresented areas.

So in "some situations" the SAT score is NOT de-emphasized.

But in "other situations" the SAT score IS de-emphasized.

Two distinctly differentiated methods.

And that is the very definition of a two-tiered admissions system.

Thanks again for proving my point.
 
The notion that enlisted members cannot be effectively led and will not effectively perform their sworn duties unless the officer ranks mirror the enlisted structure in racial and ethnic breakdown is overtly racist, condescending, and--frankly--insulting to the enlisted members. We should be appalled by the suggestion, not goofily wiping tears from our eyes over how inspired and wise it supposedly is.
Have you ever served? As an officer? I think leadership in all the services would disagree with you. All branches of the service conduct exit surveys when their members leave the service. Consistent has been the fact that one of the reasons minorities do not reenlist is that they do not see equal chances of promotion. A glass ceiling. A glass ceiling reinforced by the lack of minorities in leadership positions. I think this is the primary reason. Secondly, a homogenous organization is a mature healthy organization, and thusly more efficient. One only has to look at Great Britian, it's caste system, and the resultant officer/enlisted relations in its military to understand this value. Thirdly, Admirals Mullen and Roughead, same as I, served during the racial unrest of the '70s. A minority officer was literally worth his weight in gold. Maybe no longer a factor, maybe not? Who knows.

Just for grins, envision a Navy where the enlisted is 80% majority and the officership is 80% minority. The majority would be marching on Washingon demanding reasons and corrective actions.
 
So in "some situations" the SAT score is NOT de-emphasized.
I have no idea. I can only speak from personal experience. For a candidate to be successful, not only must he qualify but he must be competitive within the appointment process as defined by federal law. So a 500/500 candidate in Fairfax County may have the initial SAT criteria waived for him, the rest of his record massaged to the extent necessary to find him qualified, yet no be competitive in that particular congressional district and definitely not competitive in the national pool. They would have wasted their time. In the past, he would have been an ideal NAPS candidate. Perhaps that is no longer true. Or at least a lesser odds of being admitted. At the same time, the same candidate in Farleigh's Appalachia might rise to the head of his competition.

I have personally heard Adm Miller state on two different occassions when queried about the diversity effort at USNA that (to paraphrase crudely) in the past there have be a lot of congressional districts that have not been represented at USNA as Federal Law stipulates and that this is no longer the case. To me this is not two-tiered but a worthy management goal to ensure a future flow of both officers and enlisted required to maintain our military. If you think it is two-tiered in favor of minorities, I will relate another experience. Being a BGO in a historically economically depressed area of all white kids, on several occassions no one in the entire district is qualified for admission. Every single candidate has been DQed. Admissions feels a great responsibility to satisfy each slate. They will go back and reevaluate each candidate a second time, making every effort to grant an appointment. Sure, these apointees wqere marginally qualified. Sure they had a higher than average attrition rate. Sure, it has been going on as long as the congressional nomination process has been in force. Sure, many were all red-headed and freckle faced, with ruddy complexions. Why is it now that they are no longer red-headed that it suddenly is a problem? This I do not understand at all.
 
Mongo- it is indeed sad, a shame really. These MOC's need to do a better job of outreach because frankly, they are doing a disservice to their constituents while not fulfilling their constitutional duty.
In some cases yes but in many cases their hands are tied. They do not have the knowledge availabe to 'recruit' these individuals. It is not often a case of USNA or nothing. USNA targets the top 5% of minority high school students. The Ivy League targets the top 5% of high school students. Everyone wants them. Full rides. With no 5 yr military commitment afterwards. Add to this a group that does not have a strong military heritage. It takes a dedicated effort by knowledgable individuals to reach these candidates. This has been happening the past few years. The motto of Admissions is "Interest the qualified, not qualify the interested." With assistance from the schoolws, they find certain qualified individuals and target them.

An example of how precarious this recruiting is. In the past, USNA charged an enrollment fee of approximately $2500. For those who could demonstrate hardship, this fee was waived. Adm. Rempf, the Supt several years back, disallowed this waiver. There was almost a mutiny of the minority recruiting officers in Admissions. Having to anti up $2500 was causing them to lose qualified candidates because their competition was allowing full rides with no fees whatsoever. If you don't believe me, go back to this article and look at the bottom chart of minority admissions under each Supt. The fact that Adm Fowler completely did away with the fee for everyone and the subsequent increase in minority appointments is not coincidental. This is how tenacious is the admissions of minority candidates.
 
"Diversity is the number one priority" at the Naval Academy.
Admiral Gary Roughead,
Chief of Naval Operations

Don't forget to include the entire statement which kinda changes the overall meaning, does it not:
Roughead said in 2009 that "diversity is the No. 1 priority" for building a stronger military.
 
Garbage. Increasing noms and appointees from MOC districts that have been historically making too few has nothing to do with a "two tiered system" of admissions. Some posters are getting desperate in their attempts to explain why the USNA is appointing URM candidates with such glaringly sub-par SAT scores.
Sure it does. This is the whole point. When there is no competition from a Congressional district; one only needs to be minimally qualified to gain an appointment.

If a certain MOC district has not had an appointment in a number of years and a candidate applies who is otherwise good but has 'weak' SAT's then admissions will do all possible to get that candidate appointed including offering a year of prep. This is true regardless of race or gender.

Can you explain why the USNA is appointing Caucasian candidates with such glaringly sub-par SAT scores??? Look at the chart again - the LOWEST scores are received by Caucasian candidates.
 
The motto of Admissions is "Interest the qualified, not qualify the interested."
That may be the motto but the SAT scores from the last few years and the statements of people who have served on the admissions board would seem to indicate the actual practice is: "Qualify the URM even if it means sneaking them in the back door via NAPS".
How is that practice working?
"It is the equivalent of taking a square peg and putting it in a round hole, where it doesn't fit," said one former board member and career military officer who was stationed at the academy.

"The unfairness is absolutely real," said the officer, who agreed to speak on condition of anonymity.

It's unfair, the officer said, to admit marginal students ahead of their better-prepared counterparts, and Naval Academy officers and capable midshipmen are under constant pressure to tutor the underachievers.

"We are pouring money and staff time into getting them through," the officer said. "The drain on the paid staff and the nonpaid staff is enormous."

Interest the qualified? Is NAPS for the qualified?
For the Naval Academy Classes of 2009-2013, 312 African Americans entered the Naval Academy, 180 (58 percent) of whom came through NAPS..

But of course after a year in NAPS they then become qualified...right? And we know this because after graduating from NAPS the USNA is "pouring money and staff time into getting them through" the USNA and because of the rigorous standards the USNA is using to determine which of the NAPS grads are accepted into the USNA:
Students who complete the nine-month NAPS program with a "C" average or better are nearly always deemed to fit the "fully qualified" category, and are admitted to the Naval Academy...

..nearly all get in, according to academy records.

During a recent two-year period, NAPS grads were arriving at the Naval Academy so poorly prepared for college-level work, the Naval Academy superintendent relieved the officer in charge of the prep school. Still, these Napsters were found to be fully qualified and were admitted to the academy, while other qualified students were turned away.
 
If a certain MOC district has not had an appointment in a number of years and a candidate applies who is otherwise good but has 'weak' SAT's then admissions will do all possible to get that candidate appointed including offering a year of prep. This is true regardless of race or gender.
Evidently not regardless of race if you review the stats of who attends NAPS. What standards are used to determine which NAPS grads are ready for the academic rigors of the USNA?
Can you explain why the USNA is appointing Caucasian candidates with such glaringly sub-par SAT scores??? Look at the chart again - the LOWEST scores are received by Caucasian candidates.
The lowest single score was received by Caucasian candidates? Possibly a single recruited athlete has a low SAT score and you want to know why "the USNA is appointing Caucasian candidates with such glaringly sub-par SAT scores"? That is really reaching....:eek:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
My opinion as a USMA grad and active admissions volunteer

We are missing the point, it’s not about a double standard, it’s about being unfair to the borderline applicants for other purposes (i.e. diversity, good football team, and etc). How many borderline cadets/midshipmen fail out? What happens to them after their separation? How many borderline cadets/midshipmen attend summer schools? What are retention and promotion rates for borderline cadets/midshipmen that graduate? People often forget that an appointment is just a start. I know the graduation rate has gone up to around 80%, but that means 1 out 5 kids that entered service academies leave without their diplomas.

What I tell applicants I work with “low” SAT score is something like
I don’t like the fact that West Point gives 60% weight to your academic achievements, but I can understand why. What West Point want is a academic foundation to allow you to graduate as West Point is not a normal college. Your typical day as a cadet is getting up around 0530 hours, all sorts of mandatory activities until 1700 hours, than 7 hours to study until 2400 hours. You can’t drop a course because you can’t manage your time. At West Point, the academic field is leveled. During high school, you can take easy courses, limit your non-academic activities to study more, take SAT prep courses, and etc to improve your academic standing. At West Point, you will be about 12 hours to do whatever you want (to include eating, sleeping, and etc) as about 12 hours belong to West Point. So, if your academic foundation is weak, you will have hard time catching up. Your leadership skills won’t help you understand a math problem and help you pass a math test. West Point has a tough challenge to determine your academic foundation. So West Point uses the standardized test score more than they should. Everybody takes the same SAT.

So I agree with the former USNA Admissions Board member quoted in the article “the borderline students often struggle to survive at the Naval Academy. It is fair to “borderline students” themselves to accept them knowing that they will have additional challenges?

I am going off topic, but if you read Starship Trooper there is a section discussion OCS candidates and their academic requirements. The author is a Naval Academy grad. Wonder what was his source material?
 
So I agree with the former USNA Admissions Board member quoted in the article “the borderline students often struggle to survive at the Naval Academy. It is fair to “borderline students” themselves to accept them knowing that they will have additional challenges?

Nor is it fair to the capable Mid and/or staff, as stated below:

Annapolis Capital said:
...and Naval Academy officers and capable midshipmen are under constant pressure to tutor the underachievers.

"We are pouring money and staff time into getting them through," the officer said. "The drain on the paid staff and the nonpaid staff is enormous."
 
Nor is it fair to the capable Mid and/or staff, as stated below:

Originally Posted by Annapolis Capital
...and Naval Academy officers and capable midshipmen are under constant pressure to tutor the underachievers.

"We are pouring money and staff time into getting them through," the officer said. "The drain on the paid staff and the nonpaid staff is enormous."

I disagree on that part. Perhaps, there is a difference between USNA staff and USMA staff or things have changed, but when I attended West Point all professors seem to be willing to help when you asked for help.

I also think if you don't want to help out fellow cadet/midshipman perhaps he or she doesn't deserve to be a cadet/midshipman.

I also think if you are a professor at a service academy and wants to complain about working more than your eight hours, perhaps he or she should teach somewhere else. I believe just like cadets/midshipmen, professors at service academies are special.

Unless civilian professors gets overtime for tutoring, I don't see how more money is spent.
 
I disagree on that part. Perhaps, there is a difference between USNA staff and USMA staff or things have changed, but when I attended West Point all professors seem to be willing to help when you asked for help.

I also think if you don't want to help out fellow cadet/midshipman perhaps he or she doesn't deserve to be a cadet/midshipman.

I also think if you are a professor at a service academy and wants to complain about working more than your eight hours, perhaps he or she should teach somewhere else. I believe just like cadets/midshipmen, professors at service academies are special.

Unless civilian professors gets overtime for tutoring, I don't see how more money is spent.

Great post. It's nice to see that the values USMA taught me about helping fellow cadets persist through the years.

God forbid these young men and women be taught a strong lesson about helping those who aren't quite getting something. What a worthless lesson, since all our enlisted subordinates are Rhodes Scholars and never need help with any facet of their lives or careers. :mad:
 
God forbid these young men and women be taught a strong lesson about helping those who aren't quite getting something
I wouldn't worry too much about the life lessons these Mids are learning from this admissions practice. Evidently the best and the brightest know what is really important...
Hate to say this stuff is really true but my son, who was showed around this week at USNA by a prior NAP student read this article and shrugged saying all the kids there know this is true but they want a good football team too.
 
I wouldn't worry too much about the life lessons these Mids are learning from this admissions practice. Evidently the best and the brightest know what is really important...

Which life lesson - life is unfair or how to not make excuses for themselves.

Can the admissions process be improved? Yes. Overall, it worked pretty good so far.

As outsiders to the admissions process, do we know everything to make an informed judgement? I don't think so.

Have some candidates benefited from other factors? I would say yes. I noticed number of service academy applicants that have some sort of service academy connection (i.e. family members graduated/attending, JROTC, good highschool counselors, MALO or Blue and Gold Officer working with them, and etc).

An advice I give to applicants I work is that "the appointment is not necessarily about you, it's about your competitors." I flip that as once you are at a service academy, everything is about you. What is it really means if your classmate got in due to a "special" treatment? Not much as what you do shoudn't change.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top