Best majors at West Point to make money with

[jl123]

+1 to UHBlackhawk. Many old timers remember the RIF days. Even career officers should plan for the day when they retire after 20 - 30 years in service, still in their forties or early fifties.

My peers were O-3's with 7 - 8 years in service when they were given a blanket offer: "Resign immediately and accept a severance of $25k or stay in and take your chances of being separated with no severance."

A degree in History or English is an excellent complement to a graduate degree, but of little use to someone suddenly out of a job. The best advice I ever heard was to continually build marketable skills while on active duty. It makes for a better active duty officer, as well as providing insurance for the day you're no longer in uniform.

 

[UHBlackhawk]

+1 to UHBlackhawk. Many old timers remember the RIF days. Even career officers should plan for the day when they retire after 20 - 30 years in service, still in their forties or early fifties.

My peers were O-3's with 7 - 8 years in service when they were given a blanket offer: "Resign immediately and accept a severance of $25k or stay in and take your chances of being separated with no severance."

A degree in History or English is an excellent complement to a graduate degree, but of little use to someone suddenly out of a job. The best advice I ever heard was to continually build marketable skills while on active duty. It makes for a better active duty officer, as well as providing insurance for the day you're no longer in uniform.

My wife's year group was decimated. They had an O-2 retention board before the O-3 promotion board. Between the retention board and the promotion board less than 75% were promoted to O-3. I knew several O-2 pilots who had only one fitness report and either were not retained or promoted.

 

[brovol]

As with any college, chosing a major should be consistent with the goal of college in the first place; securing an education and certification to further your professional career. Only those from extremely wealthy families, who never will really have to work for a living, have the luxury of going to college for the fun of it, and studying something that you really like doing. I agree that there is a balance which should be considered when choosing a major, but would add that the balance should include a major which will further a career, both while in the military, and then post-military career.

Personally, I wasted my time in college, without learning much, except perhaps a few lessons in life, and ended up with one of the softest majors; political science. I was left with very few productive options, and I ended up in law school. It worked out all right for me, but if I was more forward-thinking at the time, and had the work ethic to set and achieve worthy goals, I would have disciplined myself to earn a more technical degree. It would have not prohibited me from going to law school, or accomplishing anything that I ended up accomplishing, but I would have had far more good options throughout my life. Options increase quality of life over the long course.

The academies are engineering and STEM schools first, with everything else being secondary. All of the majors at West Point and the other academies are legitimate and worthy. I'm not suggesting that the liberal arts majors are less. Just suggesting that you can't go wrong having a Bachelor of Science with a STEM major out of West Point.

 

[flieger83]

I actually think this is a valid question and actually shows some maturity. Yes, when you go to a service academy you must understand that you will serve the nation. But at some point, you will walk out the door of military life into civilian life and when you do the military will remind you to not let the door hit you on the way out. Some will do the five and dive, some will stay in. I've seen officers talk for 20+ years how they were getting out. The only officer from my flight class still on active duty just pinned on his third star. He was one of the ones who kept saying he was getting out. Others who thought they would stay in for 20+ were shown the door with a swift boot to the rear end after Desert Storm before their obligation was over. Yeah, their major mattered. "Uh rah, service to the nation" FEBA did not get them jobs when the Army showed them to door 2-4 years into their 7-year commitment. Heck, I know one infantry lieutenant who was in the field in Germany. His battalion commander called him into a tent and told him he was not being retained as a lieutenant. He needed to pack up his stuff, head back to garrison, and be out of the Army in 90 days. Thank you very little. This was during internet infancy so he was left scrambling to find a job. From Germany. In 90 days.

Now having written that, as others have pointed out, a person needs to balance what they love with what will provide an income. Yes, chose something you love/enjoy. But my majors were German Literature and European History. My career is in aviation. I love it. My kids say I don't go to work, I go and play with my toys. But, as I and 10,000+ other pilots are once again being reminded, it's a volatile industry. It's tough to fall back on a BA in German Literature and European History. I probably should have chosen something like finance or accounting. I enjoy that stuff and probably could have used it as a backup plan. Oh well. I hear train engineers are in demand and they like to hire pilots.
So look at the usefulness of a major on the outside, but balance it with something you do enjoy.
Just my 2 cents.

Wenn Sie Deutsch sprechen, können Sie sich zertifizieren lassen und die High School unterrichten. Nur eine Idee.

(I couldn't remember the appropriate word for high school..it's been a LONG time)

Steve
Jagdflieger a.D.

 

[UHBlackhawk]

Wenn Sie Deutsch sprechen, können Sie sich zertifizieren lassen und die High School unterrichten. Nur eine Idee.

(I couldn't remember the appropriate word for high school..it's been a LONG time)

Steve
Jagdflieger a.D.

Ich habe fast kein Deutsch gesprochen zeit funfunddreissig jahren. Das Herr wurde mich nicht nach Deutschland schicken. Korea? Ja. Afrika? Ja. Panama? Ja. Deutschland? Es tut mir leid, aber NEIN.

 

[jl123]

(I couldn't remember the appropriate word for high school..it's been a LONG time)

• Gymnasium – for students preparing for university
• Realschule – for intermediary students
• Hauptschule – for less academic students

My first few months in Germany I wondered why so many teenagers were going to a fitness center during the day.

 

[flieger83]

(I couldn't remember the appropriate word for high school..it's been a LONG time)

• Gymnasium – for students preparing for university
• Realschule – for intermediary students
• Hauptschule – for less academic students

My first few months in Germany I wondered why so many teenagers were going to a fitness center during the day.

Gymnasium!! That's right! It's been almost 35 years for me. Did "Mother Blue" send me to Germany or Spain? Only short TDY's...never long enought to "become fluent." Oh well...they did encourage me to learn Russian...that was an adventure...until we made peace with the former soviet union...and that ended.

Steve

 

[UHBlackhawk]

(I couldn't remember the appropriate word for high school..it's been a LONG time)

• Gymnasium – for students preparing for university
• Realschule – for intermediary students
• Hauptschule – for less academic students

My first few months in Germany I wondered why so many teenagers were going to a fitness center during the day.

In some ways, it's kind of sad. You are tracked at a pretty early age and once you are on a track it can be tough to get out of it. I had a German friend at Ft. Bliss who was a journalist. His wife taught at the German high school there. He came from a poor background and said in Germany it was tougher to get out of that track than in the US. Yes, university was free. But very few poor people made it to that track. He was one of a handful at his university. He was as fascinated that my wife went to medical school in her 30s as that was unheard of in Germany.

 

[jl123]

In some ways, it's kind of sad. You are tracked at a pretty early age and once you are on a track it can be tough to get out of it. I had a German friend at Ft. Bliss who was a journalist. His wife taught at the German high school there. He came from a poor background and said in Germany it was tougher to get out of that track than in the US. Yes, university was free. But very few poor people made it to that track. He was one of a handful at his university. He was as fascinated that my wife went to medical school in her 30s as that was unheard of in Germany.

Exactly what I thought when I learned that German kids were essentially set on their life track in 5th or 6th grade. The Abitur is the extensive examination required for application to German universities. Although students from Realshule and Hauptshule can take it, it is very difficult to pass without a Gymnasium education.

In the U.S. we do something similar - AP and Advanced classes provide the separation. Although our system is not as formalized and rigid as Germany, trying to get into a top college in the U.S. without "taking the most rigorous courses offered at your school", is an uphill battle.

But the U.S. does offer more opportunity for slow starters to get back on a higher track through community college, online study, and the ability to transfer pretty easily.

 

[flieger83]

It's not just Germany...the GCSE's in the UK, and the "Le Bac" in France. I've been told horror stories from friends. One gent I worked with at Motorola was French. One of his daughters wanted to be a physician. After her test (you get one shot if I recall) she was told she could never be a physician, but she could be a veterinarian or a dentist. She chose to be a dentist. To this day she'll tell you she's working in a field she wasn't terribly interested in.

I'd hate to have that type of a "life deciding moment."

Steve

 

[UHBlackhawk]

Exactly what I thought when I learned that German kids were essentially set on their life track in 5th or 6th grade. The Abitur is the extensive examination required for application to German universities. Although students from Realshule and Hauptshule can take it, it is very difficult to pass without a Gymnasium education.

In the U.S. we do something similar - AP and Advanced classes provide the separation. Although our system is not as formalized and rigid as Germany, trying to get into a top college in the U.S. without "taking the most rigorous courses offered at your school", is an uphill battle.

But the U.S. does offer more opportunity for slow starters to get back on a higher track through community college, online study, and the ability to transfer pretty easily.

DW never would have made it there.
She started out at a community college that accepted her. Worked her tail off. Got into a four-year university, but didn’t have the grades for medical school.
She went into the Army as a QM officer. Got accepted to flight school as an O-2 Applied to medical school as an O-4.
My German friend said she would never have become a doctor in Germany.
My cousin was about the same. Not the best grades in college. Worked as an EMT. Got accepted to Navy flight school. Eventually took enough courses on the side and did well enough on the MCAT that he got accepted to medical school in his 30s. He is a well respected ER doctor now at a well known residency program.

 

[cb7893]

Germany, France, UK are not alone in the way they winnow out the chaff. Poland's abitur is called matura. My wife is from Poland and they had a similar system to Germany: Lyceum (lycee in France) for the university bound and Technical or Occupational schools for those bound for trades or white collar work.

My DS spend his junior year of high school in Brazil in a private school which was basically a four year prep school for the college entrance exam. Public school students had virtually no chance of competing for spots. When he was in Taiwan for his gap year, he was sent to a high school which was run by the Military. Each day began with a morning assembly which included saluting a large portrait of Chang Kai-shek. The school was for students bound for the hospitality industry. His classes included cooking and bar tending and gardening.

The competition is so fierce in many countries because the drop off in quality and prestige is so sharp from the flagship schools to the rest. Check out Korean and Japanese "Cram" schools. US schools are a very attractive alternative for those who can't get into the University of Tokyo or University of Seoul or IIT. We end up getting their chaff, who pay full tuition.

 

[agniusma]

At the risk of bringing this controversial thread back to life, I was wondering if someone could help me understand the relationship between West Point majors, Branch assignments, and how each of these might relate to a future civilian career. I recently spoke to someone whose cadet majored in DSS but branched into Engineers. I was surprised to learn that because my naive assumption is that branching into Engineers would require a more technical major. I realize that Branching is a complex process, and I know the questions below might be too simplistic but I will go ahead and ask anyway:

1. Does the choice of major have a big influence on what branch you might get?
2. If you transition out into civilian life at some point, will it be your major or your branch that plays a bigger role in what you might do in your civilian career (job/post-graduate degree)?

Thanks!

 

[jl123]

At the risk of bringing this controversial thread back to life, I was wondering if someone could help me understand the relationship between West Point majors, Branch assignments, and how each of these might relate to a future civilian career. I recently spoke to someone whose cadet majored in DSS but branched into Engineers. I was surprised to learn that because my naive assumption is that branching into Engineers would require a more technical major. I realize that Branching is a complex process, and I know the questions below might be too simplistic but I will go ahead and ask anyway:

1. Does the choice of major have a big influence on what branch you might get?
2. If you transition out into civilian life at some point, will it be your major or your branch that plays a bigger role in what you might do in your civilian career (job/post-graduate degree)?

Thanks!

1. With very few exceptions, the choice of major has only a small influence on branching, and then only a couple of branches. Because of USMA's core requirements, and training received in BOLC, cadets are well prepared for almost every branch. The new branching system gives branches the opportunity to evaluate cadets, but the impact of major is far less than grades, military development, and physical fitness. One exception is Cyber, which is limited to certain majors.

Using Engineers as an example, many mistakenly believe that Engineers do design work requiring extensive math and engineering curriculum. The reality is that Engineers dig tank ditches, put in minefields, assemble "Lego like" bridges, work with demolitions, and do construction work. A science or engineering degree would be a useful over-qualification, while a History major combined with the core curriculum and required engineering sequence fully qualifies a cadet to branch Engineers, provided they did not struggle with math. But those who struggle with math may also find Field Artillery a challenge.

2. The impact of major on transition to civilian life is more complicated. In general, employers place greatest value on the leadership experience, character, and maturity of transitioning military officers, regardless of branch or major. Obviously there are numerous exceptions, depending on industry or field of study in graduate school.

 

[toomuchtimeonmyhands]

At the risk of bringing this controversial thread back to life, I was wondering if someone could help me understand the relationship between West Point majors, Branch assignments, and how each of these might relate to a future civilian career. I recently spoke to someone whose cadet majored in DSS but branched into Engineers. I was surprised to learn that because my naive assumption is that branching into Engineers would require a more technical major. I realize that Branching is a complex process, and I know the questions below might be too simplistic but I will go ahead and ask anyway:

1. Does the choice of major have a big influence on what branch you might get?
2. If you transition out into civilian life at some point, will it be your major or your branch that plays a bigger role in what you might do in your civilian career (job/post-graduate degree)?

Thanks!

In my experience, your major doesn't really have an influence on branching. I've seen engineering majors go to med school. Ive seen non-STEM majors go aviation. I've seen STEM majors go infantry. You'll come to realize that you will learn a lot of your branch's job at Basic Officer Leaders Course (BOLC). The only time where i've seen major influence branching is Cyber, but Cyber is unique in the sense that they generally select people who do a lot of different cyber extracurriculars. Majors might help here and there throughout your career (example: knowledge on psychology, international relations, operations research can help with human interactions, logistics, etc) but they generally dont influence what branch you get.

Getting out, it depends. Your major or your branch can play a role and it depends on whoever/whatever is evaluating you. But the biggest factor is how you did in the Army. How did you do as a leader, what impacts did you have, etc.

To anyone reading this comment, pick a major that you will ENJOY learning. Maybe my opinion is wrong, but don't pick a major just because it's easy or you are good at it. Picking a major because it might help make money once you get out of the Army is a decision you will have to make. However, try to pick a major you will enjoy doing at the academy because it will take up a lot of your life at school. I'm pretty good at math, but I learned during plebe year that I did not enjoy doing it. I've had friends who changed majors because they just weren't enjoying it, and once they switched, their lives at the academy did a whole 180 and they started loving life

 

[toomuchtimeonmyhands]

I get that this post is a little heated, but there are definitely a lot of people who go to the academy with the mindset of earning a lot of money. However, you'll learn that you won't be making a money until you get out of the army and way down that career. generally, a lot of people will experience a pay cut even when they decide to leave the army.

 

[UHBlackhawk]

1. With very few exceptions, the choice of major has only a small influence on branching, and then only a couple of branches. Because of USMA's core requirements, and training received in BOLC, cadets are well prepared for almost every branch. The new branching system gives branches the opportunity to evaluate cadets, but the impact of major is far less than grades, military development, and physical fitness. One exception is Cyber, which is limited to certain majors.

Using Engineers as an example, many mistakenly believe that Engineers do design work requiring extensive math and engineering curriculum. The reality is that Engineers dig tank ditches, put in minefields, assemble "Lego like" bridges, work with demolitions, and do construction work. A science or engineering degree would be a useful over-qualification, while a History major combined with the core curriculum and required engineering sequence fully qualifies a cadet to branch Engineers, provided they did not struggle with math. But those who struggle with math may also find Field Artillery a challenge.

2. The impact of major on transition to civilian life is more complicated. In general, employers place greatest value on the leadership experience, character, and maturity of transitioning military officers, regardless of branch or major. Obviously there are numerous exceptions, depending on industry or field of study in graduate school.

Yes... and no. Engineer is a wide field. Everything from 12B Sappers to Corps of Engineers taking care of dams and canals. I understand they do look at majors somewhat with an eye on the O-4 rank and above. I heard they had issues with a lack of field grade officers with needed expertise.

 

[cb7893]

As I get older and my DS gets deeper into the belly of the beast, it gets more amusing when arises the question of "If I go to an SA, what is the best major to make money?"

Hint. It's you not your major.

 

[jl123]

Yes... and no. Engineer is a wide field. Everything from 12B Sappers to Corps of Engineers taking care of dams and canals. I understand they do look at majors somewhat with an eye on the O-4 rank and above. I heard they had issues with a lack of field grade officers with needed expertise.

Yes, the branch reps do look at majors in their ratings as it relates to the branch, but the reality is that for most branches it doesn't matter. The popularity of a branch drives assignment. A highly popular branch gives branch reps more control over selection, while branch reps have almost no say in less popular branches - several branches must take cadets that they rank as Least Preferred.

Engineers is less popular today than it once was and not at all difficult for a non-engineering major to get. While the branch rep may try to encourage engineering majors to choose the branch, there is no impediment to a non-engineering major. In contrast, MI is much more popular than it once was. Only those rated as Most Preferred got it last year without BRADSO.

The new branching process is somewhat comical, similar to the dating process. I observed ratings go from Most Preferred to Least Preferred and vice versa based simply on the cadet's order of preference. One cadet had a particular branch fairly low in his order of preference for three years and after changing it to top 5, went from Least Preferred to Most Preferred and invited to lunch with the Branch Commandant.