Can dual citizenship be commission as officer?

I knew a lady who said they showed up at her parents house when her ex-boyfriend applied for an internship at the NSA.
There is a retired AF guy in my apt complex and he said they interviewed his jr high baseball coach.

I dont understand, why does your ex girlfriend's parents and jr high baseball coach matter to get a security clearance? The first couple was already broken up and she was married to someone else. With my neighbor he was enlisted and not involved in athletics.
 
lipton_hot_tea said:
I knew a lady who said they showed up at her parents house when her ex-boyfriend applied for an internship at the NSA.
There is a retired AF guy in my apt complex and he said they interviewed his jr high baseball coach.

I dont understand, why does your ex girlfriend's parents and jr high baseball coach matter to get a security clearance? The first couple was already broken up and she was married to someone else. With my neighbor he was enlisted and not involved in athletics.
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The interviews with neighbors and others helps round out the picture to determine if the subject of the security clearance investigation has been truthful and not lied outright or by omission.

The junior high basketball coach might say, “Sure, I remember Joe, good kid.” Then there are the questions about did you ever know him to get in trouble, take any trips out of the country that seemed odd, get in trouble here at school, use drugs, hang out with foreign nationals, and so on. “Did you think he was a truthful person?” Then the coach says, “Oh, yeah, overall, decent kid, but he and three others got in big trouble one year when they brought X drugs to a dance after a football game and got caught. He and his buddies were high as kites. He seemed to straighten up after that.” If Joe revealed that on his SF-86 application, no problem. If he omitted that incident, the question becomes “What else did he lie about? Is he now a trustworthy individual?”

People outside the inner family circle will provide bits and pieces of information “overlooked” by close family members.
 
^^^^ This. When we lived at West Point it was not at all a rarity for there to be a random knock at the door from an agent doing a security investigation on a neighbor. Many of our LTC neighbors applied to the Army War College as their next assignment, so they even continue to check into things when you’ve been ‘in the system’ for many years. When you read on this board that if you are going to lie about something in your initial SA application, be prepared to lie about it for the rest of your military career, they are not kidding.
 
Tex232 said:
Not entirely true. I commissioned with dual citizenship (by birth) and still hold my foreign citizenship. The document you mention - and the one I signed - states you will renounce your citizenship if asked to do so by the US government. However, formal renouncement would require a person to do this through the government of the country in question. The above document is basically meaningless outside of the DoD.
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My son is a dual citizen by birth, US and Brazilian, though born in the USA. He actually holds both passports. His goal is to pursue a degree in Aerospace Engineering and become an Air Force Pilot. This job will most likely require a top-secret clearance. Can you tell me what the procedure is that he will have to follow? He intends to apply for an ROTC scholarship to MIT or attend the Air Force Academy. His mother and I own a home in Brazil and he has many relatives there that he would like to be able to visit from time to time. On our last trip to Brazil, his Brazilian Passport was expired, and they allowed him to enter as an American Tourist, so visiting Brazil without his citizenship is possible if necessary.
 
cluelesscandidateparents said:
My son has dual citizenship. He was told by USNA he does not need to renounce his second one as or right now but has to be willing if asked and he can not use that passport any longer for travel etc ( he never has used it anyways)
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My Son is in the same situation, but he wants to become an officer (pilot) in the Air Force, and his job will require a Security Clearance. I know that some enlisted jobs don't require a clearance, but I've been told that all officers must have a clearance and that the clearance is denied to dual citizens. Can you clarify what procedure he needs to follow to become an Air Force officer?
 
BruceP said:
My Son is in the same situation, but he wants to become an officer (pilot) in the Air Force, and his job will require a Security Clearance. I know that some enlisted jobs don't require a clearance, but I've been told that all officers must have a clearance and that the clearance is denied to dual citizens. Can you clarify what procedure he needs to follow to become an Air Force officer?
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I'm just a candidate, so I know nothing, but I can tell you what I was told. One of the first things I looked into was the procedure for a dual citizen since I wanted to know if I should go ahead and give mine up before I applied. Everyone I spoke with said basically what is written above, that I have to be willing to renounce my citizenship to the other country when/if I'm asked, and to not travel on that country's passport. Based on that, as long as your son is also a US citizen, it appears that he shouldn't need to worry about being a dual citizen for becoming an officer until he needs a security clearance, but he won't be able to use the passport of the other country and might have to surrender it if asked.

I will say that I've gotten mixed answers for ROTC if that's an avenue your son is perusing also, but no one has spoken up to tell me that I should do it now, and I certainly can't imagine that they'd expect me to do it as a candidate before I find out if I qualify for a scholarship. I would if they said I had to, of course. Since my dual citizenship country is the UK, it's pretty easy to go there on my US passport when we visit family.
 
Thegirlinthefireplace said:
I'm just a candidate, so I know nothing, but I can tell you what I was told. One of the first things I looked into was the procedure for a dual citizen since I wanted to know if I should go ahead and give mine up before I applied. Everyone I spoke with said basically what is written above, that I have to be willing to renounce my citizenship to the other country when/if I'm asked, and to not travel on that country's passport. Based on that, as long as your son is also a US citizen, it appears that he shouldn't need to worry about being a dual citizen for becoming an officer until he needs a security clearance, but he won't be able to use the passport of the other country and might have to surrender it if asked.

I will say that I've gotten mixed answers for ROTC if that's an avenue your son is perusing also, but no one has spoken up to tell me that I should do it now, and I certainly can't imagine that they'd expect me to do it as a candidate before I find out if I qualify for a scholarship. I would if they said I had to, of course. Since my dual citizenship country is the UK, it's pretty easy to go there on my US passport when we visit family.
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Well, that sounds like it's not as bad as I thought. We have a bit of time, he is just starting the 6th grade now, and last time we went to Brazil, his Brazilian Passport was expired. We applied for a new one but hadn't received it so the expired one was still at the consulate. He entered Brazil on his US passport as a tourist with no issue. However, beginning January 10, those traveling with American Passports will be required to have a visa. Not sure how that will all work out. He has a lot of relatives in Brazil, and we own a house there that he and his brother eventually will inherit. I guess we'll just apply for his ROTC scholarship and see what questions they ask. Maybe it won't be an issue.
 
BruceP said:
Well, that sounds like it's not as bad as I thought. We have a bit of time, he is just starting the 6th grade now, and last time we went to Brazil, his Brazilian Passport was expired. We applied for a new one but hadn't received it so the expired one was still at the consulate. He entered Brazil on his US passport as a tourist with no issue. However, beginning January 10, those traveling with American Passports will be required to have a visa. Not sure how that will all work out. He has a lot of relatives in Brazil, and we own a house there that he and his brother eventually will inherit. I guess we'll just apply for his ROTC scholarship and see what questions they ask. Maybe it won't be an issue.
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I was going to suggest he stop using the Brazilian passport when he hits high school, but that does sound like a pain to have to get a visa every time you go. He's got plenty of time though, and the rules could change 15 times between now and then. Good luck to him!
 
Tex232 said:
Not entirely true. I commissioned with dual citizenship (by birth) and still hold my foreign citizenship. The document you mention - and the one I signed - states you will renounce your citizenship if asked to do so by the US government. However, formal renouncement would require a person to do this through the government of the country in question. The above document is basically meaningless outside of the DoD.
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My son was in that boat. In his case, the second country, by their law, doesn't allow anyone to renounce their citizenship. I seem to recall that there are four such countries in the world. There was no impact getting an academy appointment (USMA), but getting a security clearance was a different story. The paper he signed was essentially for the US Government since the other country couldn't either note or act on it. He eventually got his security clearance. I think that the other country still views him as a citizen, but if my son were to pursue it since he is no longer in the US Army, I think that he might be subject to losing his US citizenship. As a matter of policy, the US Government doesn't encourage multiple citizenship for those over 18 years of age. The laws of other countries are not necessarily consistent with US laws.
 
It's a case-by-case basis. You can read all you want about it online, the truth is no one can tell you what is or is not acceptable in terms of being granted a security clearance. The military services as a whole are no longer responsible for making any of those decisions, much less any service academy or ROTC program.

It all depends. I think the best answer is to be transparent at every opportunity about your specific situation and talk to a knowledgeable security officer at the earliest opportunity (not another MIDN/cadet, not some O3 who only knows how it worked in their case with country X, Y, or Z). If the security officer feels the need, they will send it up and DCSA will give an authoritative answer. If it does turn out to be an issue, the fact that you were told by LT X or Capt Y that it wouldn't be an issue so you chose not to report is not really going to mitigate anything.

Obviously if you do renounce it no longer becomes a problem. And yeah, the document you sign is in a lot of cases just for show--what really matters is whether the U.S. government believes you have divided loyalties with another nation, or an emotional or financial vulnerability with regard to another nation. There's ways to demonstrate that you might, and there's ways to mitigate the concern. Not really the time to play sea lawyer, because the bar to be denied a clearance is really not that high.

But no, you don't have to renounce outright, and you won't have to until explicitly told to do so. You can really dig a deep rabbit hole looking up the various policies surrounding this, but adjudicative guidelines are only guidelines, and the result can only be known by going through the process.
 
nuensis said:
It's a case-by-case basis. You can read all you want about it online, the truth is no one can tell you what is or is not acceptable in terms of being granted a security clearance. The military services as a whole are no longer responsible for making any of those decisions, much less any service academy or ROTC program.

It all depends. I think the best answer is to be transparent at every opportunity about your specific situation and talk to a knowledgeable security officer at the earliest opportunity (not another MIDN/cadet, not some O3 who only knows how it worked in their case with country X, Y, or Z). If the security officer feels the need, they will send it up and DCSA will give an authoritative answer. If it does turn out to be an issue, the fact that you were told by LT X or Capt Y that it wouldn't be an issue so you chose not to report is not really going to mitigate anything.

Obviously if you do renounce it no longer becomes a problem. And yeah, the document you sign is in a lot of cases just for show--what really matters is whether the U.S. government believes you have divided loyalties with another nation, or an emotional or financial vulnerability with regard to another nation. There's ways to demonstrate that you might, and there's ways to mitigate the concern. Not really the time to play sea lawyer, because the bar to be denied a clearance is really not that high.

But no, you don't have to renounce outright, and you won't have to until explicitly told to do so. You can really dig a deep rabbit hole looking up the various policies surrounding this, but adjudicative guidelines are only guidelines, and the result can only be known by going through the process.
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When I went thru clearance stuff last year, the information protectorate people I had to speak to about my dual citizenship told me they never have anyone renounce citizenship. They said this is for multiple reasons including that some countries will not recognize it, to others it’s a crime, and that it often incurs a cost. Instead, you sign a document stating you will not exercise any rights such as voting or travel on a foreign passport while active duty. Quite simple and more of a formal process. They will however question the heck out of you during security clearance interviews.
 
What's fine at the Academy can suddenly not be fine after commissioning. What's fine in your operational unit is not fine at NSA.

Always seek out the security manager at your current command or your next command, if pending orders, with questions like this. Do not be satisfied with anecdotes, and document communications.

If you're getting your answer from this message board, you really shouldn't be.
 
nuensis said:
What's fine at the Academy can suddenly not be fine after commissioning. What's fine in your operational unit is not fine at NSA.

Always seek out the security manager at your current command or your next command, if pending orders, with questions like this. Do not be satisfied with anecdotes, and document communications.

If you're getting your answer from this message board, you really shouldn't be.
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This

There is a huge difference between the ENTNAC which is the relatively minor level investigation done while at the Service Academies for a Secret Clearance and the much more rigorous investigation for the Top Secret that is required for many officer jobs after graduation and then the further even MORE rigorous investigations and requirements that can follow for other "things".
 
OldRetSWO said:
This

There is a huge difference between the ENTNAC which is the relatively minor level investigation done while at the Service Academies for a Secret Clearance and the much more rigorous investigation for the Top Secret that is required for many officer jobs after graduation and then the further even MORE rigorous investigations and requirements that can follow for other "things".
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Top secret is the standard at USAFA now that is granted to almost all cadets during their 4th degree year. I do not know about other academies.
 
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