CGA Incoming class expected to be most diverse ever

I'm having trouble figuring out how this is ANY different than all 4/C being mentored by 3/C (the real purpose of a 3/C, although it hasn't always been that way).

I'm also not understanding your reference to remedial swimming (of remedial PFE or academic probation etc etc etc)....those are programs in which you are not up to par. You are suggesting being an underrepresented minority is not "up to par". As far as the "you are not alone" frame of though, you should understand that when you see your 300 classmates in the same uniforms, feeling the same pain.

If it's voluntary, it should be fore ALL cadets (how's that for letting you know you're not alone?). And if it's available to ALL cadets, just dumb down the entire program so everyone can feel good about themselves.

You've had over 11,000 cadets who have graduated without this program, it's amazing it's somehow needed.

Do you honestly think because you're a URM (uh oh, just gave you a label, something my cadets didn't identify with), you "overcame" swab summer any more than your "majority" classmates? I don't think so. I doubt you do too. This program is a cookie for a certain Maryland congressman that loves to focus on the Coast Guard....nothing more....and no more needed than to appease a dancing bear.
 
LineInTheSand said:
I'm having trouble figuring out how this is ANY different than all 4/C being mentored by 3/C (the real purpose of a 3/C, although it hasn't always been that way).

I'm also not understanding your reference to remedial swimming (of remedial PFE or academic probation etc etc etc)....those are programs in which you are not up to par. You are suggesting being an underrepresented minority is not "up to par". As far as the "you are not alone" frame of though, you should understand that when you see your 300 classmates in the same uniforms, feeling the same pain.

If it's voluntary, it should be fore ALL cadets (how's that for letting you know you're not alone?). And if it's available to ALL cadets, just dumb down the entire program so everyone can feel good about themselves.

You've had over 11,000 cadets who have graduated without this program, it's amazing it's somehow needed.

Do you honestly think because you're a URM (uh oh, just gave you a label, something my cadets didn't identify with), you "overcame" swab summer any more than your "majority" classmates? I don't think so. I doubt you do too. This program is a cookie for a certain Maryland congressman that loves to focus on the Coast Guard....nothing more....and no more needed than to appease a dancing bear.
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LITS, I'm going to ask you not to play games with me. You went to the Academy, you served in the fleet, you know that sometimes you have to do stuff to make the boss happy. You do the Engineering round in a certain order because it makes MKC happy. You use a whistle for colors instead of a bos'n call because it makes XO happy. You make a program which may or may not help minorities (if you ask me, the jury's still out on that one) because it makes a few congressmen happy. And in that vein it may not be strictly needed by the cadets, but if the choice is between keeping both these programs and the Academy's pure merit-based system and making things fairer in the short-term, and throwing away that merit-based admissions system in the long-term, I'm going to opt for the system that doesn't give random (read: very well-connected) people a leg up in admissions just because their dad went to high school with Senator so-and-so.

I'm hearing a lot of "shoulds", not just from you LITS but from a lot of people here. "It should be for everyone!" Maybe it should. But the reality of the situation is that it's not, and if I had to guess won't be for several years. "My __ should have gotten in!" I won't even argue with you there. They probably should have. CGA could double its class sizes and still exclude exceedingly qualified applicants. I don't know what to tell you, except that reverse discrimination flatout isn't a sound explanation for anyone not getting accepted. Unless you're willing to make the argument that there are only 400-ish qualified applicants, which I certainly wouldn't.

As for the "you are not alone" message, its hard to appreciate for a lot of people. Put yourself in a position where you're being ostracized for years for actually bothering to want to make something of yourself, or (probably more commonly) the only person of your (race/gender/eye color/blood type, as long as everyone is aware of that trait, especially you) in the room, for most of your life. "You Are Not Alone" means a lot more after that, again for reasons that reach far beyond the scope of this debate, being more society-at-large issues.

As for 3/c mentoring 4/c, again, you went to the Academy. Think back to your 4/c year. Or even your 3/c year.
 
Roy_Mustang said:
LITS, I'm going to ask you not to play games with me. You went to the Academy, you served in the fleet, you know that sometimes you have to do stuff to make the boss happy. You do the Engineering round in a certain order because it makes MKC happy. You use a whistle for colors instead of a bos'n call because it makes XO happy. You make a program which may or may not help minorities (if you ask me, the jury's still out on that one) because it makes a few congressmen happy. And in that vein it may not be strictly needed by the cadets, but if the choice is between keeping both these programs and the Academy's pure merit-based system and making things fairer in the short-term, and throwing away that merit-based admissions system in the long-term, I'm going to opt for the system that doesn't give random (read: very well-connected) people a leg up in admissions just because their dad went to high school with Senator so-and-so.

I'm hearing a lot of "shoulds", not just from you LITS but from a lot of people here. "It should be for everyone!" Maybe it should. But the reality of the situation is that it's not, and if I had to guess won't be for several years. "My __ should have gotten in!" I won't even argue with you there. They probably should have. CGA could double its class sizes and still exclude exceedingly qualified applicants. I don't know what to tell you, except that reverse discrimination flatout isn't a sound explanation for anyone not getting accepted. Unless you're willing to make the argument that there are only 400-ish qualified applicants, which I certainly wouldn't.

As for the "you are not alone" message, its hard to appreciate for a lot of people. Put yourself in a position where you're being ostracized for years for actually bothering to want to make something of yourself, or (probably more commonly) the only person of your (race/gender/eye color/blood type, as long as everyone is aware of that trait, especially you) in the room, for most of your life. "You Are Not Alone" means a lot more after that, again for reasons that reach far beyond the scope of this debate, being more society-at-large issues.

As for 3/c mentoring 4/c, again, you went to the Academy. Think back to your 4/c year. Or even your 3/c year.
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I want to assume you're prior enlisted Roy, that's my hope with the way you're speaking. It's a cop out. It's a pathetic cop out. I'm not saying what you did is, but the program is. Do you think this program some how overcomes "my daddy know's a senator"? Really? No.

Here's what I'm going to say. I remember, in part, swab summer and 4/c year. I kind of remember my 3/c year. That was the first year the Coast Guard Academy tried to change the role of the 3/c into a mentor for the 4/c. I also remember not looking at my black or female classmates as "someone not alone." They were like the rest of us. Nothing was different in my eyes. That's the way it has been (obviously not always accepting of minorities or females) since 1876.

Maybe the program will evolve. Many of these programs seem to stick. I don't think it benefits anyone to single out a certain gender or race for an optional program.

I'm glad as a URM you made it through swab summer Roy, but you and I both know it had nothing to do with the color of your skin, or extra help. People get through swab summer because they work hard, and because their fellow swabs, their classmates (which will be your closest friends by the end) are there for each other. Independent of skin color, it's about the color of the uniform, and for the 950 cadets...it's blue, and eventually you get out and you join 40,000 other people bleeding blue...who have your back (even if you don't always get along.)

It's unfortunate that a program exists like this at CGA, and I hope it becomes clear it's not the answer, and they quietly sweep it under the rug when a few Congressmen have more important things to worry about (like federal debt, spending, etc). I am more pleased with this than congressional nominations.
 
LineInTheSand said:
I want to assume you're prior enlisted Roy, that's my hope with the way you're speaking. It's a cop out. It's a pathetic cop out. I'm not saying what you did is, but the program is. Do you think this program some how overcomes "my daddy know's a senator"? Really? No.
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The program may very well be a cop out. But it prevents "my daddy knows a senator". Unsavory as that rationale might be...

I don't think it benefits anyone to single out a certain gender or race for an optional program.
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Agreed. Probably a good thing, then, that it doesn't single out one certain gender nor one certain race. That just wouldn't pass the sniff test by anyone's standards.
 
Roy_Mustang said:
The program may very well be a cop out. But it prevents "my daddy knows a senator". Unsavory as that rationale might be...



Agreed. Probably a good thing, then, that it doesn't single out one certain gender nor one certain race. That just wouldn't pass the sniff test by anyone's standards.
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Are you referring to congressional nominations when you say "my daddy knows a senator"? I think you are, but I wanted to make sure.


Lastly, correct me if I'm wrong, but the program may not single out a gender or race for inclusion, does it not exclude some? What are the "flags" for exclusion?
 
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